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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:45 
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Cras wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
Please forgive me for not mincing my words when a leftist protestor gets killed by a nazi driving over them in a car when the discussion seems to be more about whether a racist statue should have been destroyed or not…


Like it or not, appearances are important. Trump got elected by people who look at the news and when they see statues being pulled down they don't see justified anger, they see violence. They say things like "it's awful, the violence on both sides" because that's what the media reporting teaches them. Protest and action only drive change when they aren't doing exactly what the likes of Bannon and Gorka want - reinforcing the sense of separation between the American heartland republican voters and those who actually can see shades of grey.

This isn't the 70s. Those in charge now aren't LBJ, going to be driven to withdraw from war because of public protest. They're emboldened by it because it's giving them exactly what they want - a way to tell hall of America "This is your enemy".

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've just said, but I still respect and admire those who tore down that statue.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:17 
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Even though it's potentially counter-productive? Fair enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:19 
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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:22 
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I think pulling down that statue is akin to the bravery shown by those people who fought and died against the Nazis in a total war for the very survival of their families. That statue could easily have landed on one of their toes.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:26 
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markg wrote:
I think pulling down that statue is akin to the bravery shown by those people who fought and died against the Nazis in a total war for the very survival of their families. That statue could easily have landed on one of their toes.

Funny joke. But a lot of those people protesting against nazis are worried for the survival of their families because of the colour of their skin, so I think it's fair enough, don't you?

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:32 
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markg wrote:
I think pulling down that statue is akin to the bravery shown by those people who fought and died against the Nazis in a total war for the very survival of their families. That statue could easily have landed on one of their toes.


:DD

I mean, seriously? Parallels between the horrors of 1930s Germany and WW2, and some fucktard rednecks in America accounting for 0.1% of the populace? It's a gross insult. My grandad came back 5 stone from a prisoner of war camp, having seen all his mates literally starve to death. It broke him. The other is an OBE for his bravery. Yeah, sure they'd be well chuffed to be compared with this lot - but that's part of the problem, right there: a true sense of scale and context. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:39 
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Lonewolves wrote:
markg wrote:
I think pulling down that statue is akin to the bravery shown by those people who fought and died against the Nazis in a total war for the very survival of their families. That statue could easily have landed on one of their toes.

Funny joke. But a lot of those people protesting against nazis are worried for the survival of their families because of the colour of their skin, so I think it's fair enough, don't you?

No, I do get that. I can try to imagine how a Nazi rally might make me feel if my family and I were the specific target of their hatred and I think I might well be unable to control my anger. But I also think that lots of people just see an easy chance to be the "hero" in their own story for once.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:41 
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Lonewolves wrote:
markg wrote:
I think pulling down that statue is akin to the bravery shown by those people who fought and died against the Nazis in a total war for the very survival of their families. That statue could easily have landed on one of their toes.

Funny joke. But a lot of those people protesting against nazis are worried for the survival of their families because of the colour of their skin, so I think it's fair enough, don't you?


You're conflating two different things in this thread. Is the pulling down of the statue understandable? Of course, absolutely! Is it the correct course of action to achieve their goals? Very different question.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:47 
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Cras wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
markg wrote:
I think pulling down that statue is akin to the bravery shown by those people who fought and died against the Nazis in a total war for the very survival of their families. That statue could easily have landed on one of their toes.

Funny joke. But a lot of those people protesting against nazis are worried for the survival of their families because of the colour of their skin, so I think it's fair enough, don't you?


You're conflating two different things in this thread. Is the pulling down of the statue understandable? Of course, absolutely! Is it the correct course of action to achieve their goals? Very different question.


Actually, no, some of us think the mob pulling down that statue were quite reprehensible also, myself included. Here's DavPaz' original post a couple of pages back in case you missed it:

Quote:
Mob mentality scares the shit out of me. The people who tore down that statue were every bit as (deep breath) "swivel eyed" as the racist fucktards the other day.


I agree entirely; like I said, people need to get some sense of scale and proportionality, stop allowing themselves to be (presumably) whipped up in yet another petty grievo-max sense of outrage or other by the latest Twitter- or other social media fueled "pile on", and grow the fuck up (IMO). As Mark has already observed, these twats have always been there (in tiny numbers) and rightly ignored.

FFS, imagine if the grown ups behaved like this over everything. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:48 
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Something can be reprehensible but still understandable.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:51 
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Cavey wrote:
FFS, imagine if the grown ups behaved like this over everything. :roll:

You've literally threatened physical violence against another member of this forum, right on this board.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:53 
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Cras wrote:
Something can be reprehensible but still understandable.
Can it? I guess that strictly speaking that's true, in so far as you can try to understand why anyone does anything at all.

But usually if you describe someone's actions as understandable then it's assumed that you don't find them reprehensible.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:55 
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Grim... wrote:
Cavey wrote:
FFS, imagine if the grown ups behaved like this over everything. :roll:

You've literally threatened physical violence against another member of this forum, right on this board.


Seriously? How many years ago was that; scraping the barrel much?
I was pretty drunk if memory serves, and never said I was a saint. (And apologized profusely afterwards) But the drunken, soon to be regretted, uncoordinated actions of one person on the internet can hardly be conflated with actual, coordinated, group actions like this. Last I looked, you can't have a mob comprising of one person...

What on earth's got into you recently? :(

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:10 
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To be fair, my original post was about how mobs scare me personally. It would take some pretty serious upheaval to make move in the same direction as an angry mob. I'm definitely on the 'flight' end of 'fight-or-flight'.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:54 
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I do not think wanting to punch people because of their political beliefs is a great jumping off point for the world. I don't think destroying civic property is, either. I would prefer the state stops both.

I think there is a false equivalence with ththe statues,sufferagettes and the civil rights issues of the 1960s. These latter two were protests against unjust laws (which everyone has a moral right to disobey), the statue stuff is anger about history which has moved on massively, and people are prepared to discuss it and take proper action. Tbete is a lack of nuance in the aguments.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 13:09 
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MaliA wrote:
I do not think wanting to punch people because of their political beliefs is a great jumping off point for the world. I don't think destroying civic property is, either. I would prefer the state stops both.

I think there is a false equivalence with ththe statues,sufferagettes and the civil rights issues of the 1960s. These latter two were protests against unjust laws (which everyone has a moral right to disobey), the statue stuff is anger about history which has moved on massively, and people are prepared to discuss it and take proper action. Tbete is a lack of nuance in the aguments.


It's not history. It's the present. The White House is being largely run by, or to pander to, white supremacists. Their party is right now stripping voting rights from black people, and gerrymandering to such an extent that they're being successfully sued for trying to rig elections. Their party is explicitly recommending violence against black people and against anyone who disagrees with them. The actual State in America have set up their own propaganda news channel to lionise all their leader does, and a massive chunk of the dominant, racist party responded to polls saying they would be happy if Trump were to postpone future elections.

This, for us, is a distraction. It's a debate we can have while we sip our coffees and theorise about the best way to dispassionately respond.

To those affected at the sharp end, it's a genuinely existential argument. If you see your brother killed in broad daylight by cops and nobody cares, then you are taken off the electoral roll for no reason, then there are protests claiming that YOU are ruining the country and being pandered to... what do you do? Who are you waiting for to save you if it is the openly racist state causing you the pain?

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 14:05 
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Well said, Curio.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 14:12 
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If you're saying that the here and now reality is that the White House is being run by 'white supremacists'; that the US govt is actively recommending violence against black people and anyone who even dissents in any way and the whole boiling - right now - amounts to nothing less than an existential crisis for great swathes of the American populace.... well, I'll step slowly back from the browser and bid you good day.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 14:16 
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I read that as "slowly step back from Bowser" and my mind somehow imagined him as the mastermind behind Donald Trump.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 14:17 
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That would be slightly better than that hideous green frog thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 14:22 
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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 14:22 
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TheVision wrote:
I read that as "slowly step back from Bowser" and my mind somehow imagined him as the mastermind behind Donald Trump.


Bowser? Bacofoil more like...

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 14:33 
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Cavey wrote:
If you're saying that the here and now reality is that the White House is being run by 'white supremacists'; that the US govt is actively recommending violence against black people and anyone who even dissents in any way and the whole boiling - right now - amounts to nothing less than an existential crisis for great swathes of the American populace.... well, I'll step slowly back from the browser and bid you good day.

Good day!

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 14:44 
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Steve Bannon is White House Chief Strategist and was a founder and chair of Breibart News, an explicitly racist and anti-semetic media company. I don't think "White Supremacists in the White House" is that big a stretch.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 14:51 
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Squirt wrote:
Steve Bannon is White House Chief Strategist and was a founder and chair of Breibart News, an explicitly racist and anti-semetic media company. I don't think "White Supremacists in the White House" is that big a stretch.


What about Bowser in the White House? Can we make that work anyway?


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 14:58 
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... -dreamhost

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The US government is seeking to unmask every person who visited an anti-Trump website in what privacy advocates say is an unconstitutional “fishing expedition” for political dissidents.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 14:58 
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BOWSER FOR PRESIDENT! YES WE CAN!


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 15:00 
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Malc wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/14/donald-trump-inauguration-protest-website-search-warrant-dreamhost

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The US government is seeking to unmask every person who visited an anti-Trump website in what privacy advocates say is an unconstitutional “fishing expedition” for political dissidents.

Bloody hell.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 15:34 
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Cavey wrote:
If you're saying that the here and now reality is that the White House is being run by 'white supremacists'; that the US govt is actively recommending violence against black people and anyone who even dissents in any way and the whole boiling - right now - amounts to nothing less than an existential crisis for great swathes of the American populace.... well, I'll step slowly back from the browser and bid you good day.


The President has done that though. He repeatedly called for violence on the campaign trail. These are his own words. Steve Bannon and Seb Gorka are two of the highest ranking people in the White House and are both on the record dozens of times as being racists, anti-Semites and white supremacists. The President takes to Twitter to denounce anyone and anything that has even vaguely upset him. His own party, shops that don't stock his daughter's clothes, foreign nations, you name it he denounces it readily and quickly. Apart from white supremacist and Nazi violence. He's pretty quiet about that because it's his base vote and he knows it. They're emboldened like never before in modern history. The KKK used to march with lit torches and hoods on, because they wanted people to be scared but were not willing to do so openly.

Now they don't feel that they need to hide. They do it out in the open. The white supremacist and Nazi websites and leaders have all praised Trump's statements, saying that they are a denunciation of anti-fascist people and 'leftists'.

All of this is very open. All of this is a matter of public record.

If you want to ignore it and pretend it doesn't matter than you have that privilege. Some people don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 15:38 
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Not to mention there are places in the USA where the last time a march like this happened, a church got burned down or an innocent black guy got hanged from a tree, and within living memory too.


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