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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 22:00 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
A description of Retpoline, a Google-developed binary patching technique which protects against the bugs and claims to have almost no performance penalty (I have no insider information here, I’m quoting the doc): https://security.googleblog.com/2018/01 ... cpu_4.html


Interesting. I note they also say they've rolled out the KPTI OS patches in addition to that mitigation.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 0:10 
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I'm not reading all that. Can you make it into a 1 hour YouTube video please?

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:04 
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Meh

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I don't think PCs should be triangular.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:34 
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Just about finished patching a 200 CPU farm running on SUSE

This is normaly used by scientists 24\7 so would have been a good test to see if there were performace drops

However they all like to use the GPU farm these days, so had to ask them to run some benchmarks and come back to me

There is a plan to increase\replace some CPU this year so interested to see what performace impact there is as it will affect what we need to buy.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:40 
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gooby pls

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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Re: Meltdown/Spectre

Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned arse, but the idea of the CPU running code that it hasn't (yet) been explicitly told to run is horrifying to me.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:48 
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GazChap wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Re: Meltdown/Spectre

Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned arse, but the idea of the CPU running code that it hasn't (yet) been explicitly told to run is horrifying to me.

Well, to be fair, branch prediction and speculative execution is decades old and a significant speed up compared to not having it so... It’s worth noting that Itanium apparently doesn’t suffer from this because (I’m told) it enforces thread-level memory protection on cache lines. But the market didn’t want Itanium, it wanted more teetering hacks piled on top of x86.

Don’t forget your Intel CPU is also running an entire OS in microcode, too, with remote access and everything. In fact there’s three whole layers of stuff under your kernel you can’t see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine The days of CPUs dumbly chewing through in-order ASM instructions ended 20 years ago, we just didn’t notice at the time.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:51 
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Or as my old internet buddy put it on the day Meltdown was announced

https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/948820694376173569




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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:24 
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GazChap wrote:
Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned arse, but the idea of the CPU running code that it hasn't (yet) been explicitly told to run is horrifying to me.


It'd be fine if Intel didn't design their CPU architecture as Linus Torvalds gracefully phrased it, like 'shit'.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:51 
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Hearthly wrote:
GazChap wrote:
Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned arse, but the idea of the CPU running code that it hasn't (yet) been explicitly told to run is horrifying to me.


It'd be fine if Intel didn't design their CPU architecture as Linus Torvalds gracefully phrased it, like 'shit'.


Why does a peanuts character have an opinion on transistors?

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:54 
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Good grief

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:26 
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Hearthly wrote:
GazChap wrote:
Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned arse, but the idea of the CPU running code that it hasn't (yet) been explicitly told to run is horrifying to me.


It'd be fine if Intel didn't design their CPU architecture as Linus Torvalds gracefully phrased it, like 'shit'.


Let us note that Mr Torvalds has spent the last 20 years writing kernel code to take advantage of the performance gains provided by that exact CPU architecture and hasn't had cause to complain until now.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:29 
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Cras wrote:
Let us note that Mr Torvalds has spent the last 20 years writing kernel code to take advantage of the performance gains provided by that exact CPU architecture and hasn't had cause to complain until now.


Maybe he was running with the assumption that Intel's CPU would appropriately protect restricted kernel memory areas?

There's nothing wrong with the concept of speculative execution (it's a very good idea, in fact), it just needs to be implemented properly.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:29 
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Cras wrote:
Let us note that Mr Torvalds has spent the last 20 years writing kernel code to take advantage of the performance gains provided by that exact CPU architecture and hasn't had cause to complain until now.

Also Linus is an abusive bellend and his opinion that something is shit is basically meaningless. See e.g. https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/38136.html


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:40 
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Hearthly wrote:
Cras wrote:
Let us note that Mr Torvalds has spent the last 20 years writing kernel code to take advantage of the performance gains provided by that exact CPU architecture and hasn't had cause to complain until now.


Maybe he was running with the assumption that Intel's CPU would appropriately protect restricted kernel memory areas?
.


Then his assumptions are foolish. You don't work that close to the hardware level while making assumptions about how the hardware works. I'm not defending Intel here, I'm saying Torvalds views are (as they usually tend to be) opportunistic finger-pointing.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 13:37 
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Muff Cabbage !

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 15:19 
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Meltdown / Spectre like flaws on the Xbox 360 chips -found and resolved a long time ago (interesting read)

https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2018/ ... -xbox-360/


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 15:26 
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zaphod79 wrote:
Meltdown / Spectre like flaws on the Xbox 360 chips -found and resolved a long time ago (interesting read)

https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2018/ ... -xbox-360/

That's almost as good as when Gaywood posted about it!

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 15:28 
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Lonewolves wrote:
zaphod79 wrote:
Meltdown / Spectre like flaws on the Xbox 360 chips -found and resolved a long time ago (interesting read)

https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2018/ ... -xbox-360/

That's almost as good as when Gaywood posted about it!


Apologies - i missed that

It did also take me to this which i also found interesting (hardware bug on the original PS1)

https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DaveBag ... g_Ever.php


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 20:44 
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Anyone's work patching the clients yet?

In addition to the Windows patch levels Grim posted on this thread, I was told that we may need to do Bios update as well

Have a call with the client lead tomorrow to see if this is true.

One silver lining to this is that all the fence sitters in IT that were blocking the deployment of Anniversary (because it took so long to deploy) can now tell users its Intel fault for the disruption so we have a green light for that at least.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 22:33 
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Can you dig it?

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Speculative Execution would be a great name for a metal band (and a logo with nearly unreadable lettering)

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:53 
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Sitting balls-back folder

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@docg Intel actually put *an entire x86 CPU* in their x86 CPUs now just for the management stuff, not just microcode on the main cores.

Apparently even the people it's for don't generally turn it on, which is handy given it's exploitable. (Oh wait, that's AMT, not ME)

Your chum mjg blogged about it.https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/49788.html


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:04 
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Some performance comments straight from MS.

https://cloudblogs.microsoft.com/micros ... rce=Direct

Quote:
Here is the summary of what we have found so far:

With Windows 10 on newer silicon (2016-era PCs with Skylake, Kabylake or newer CPU), benchmarks show single-digit slowdowns, but we don’t expect most users to notice a change because these percentages are reflected in milliseconds.

With Windows 10 on older silicon (2015-era PCs with Haswell or older CPU), some benchmarks show more significant slowdowns, and we expect that some users will notice a decrease in system performance.

With Windows 8 and Windows 7 on older silicon (2015-era PCs with Haswell or older CPU), we expect most users to notice a decrease in system performance.

Windows Server on any silicon, especially in any IO-intensive application, shows a more significant performance impact when you enable the mitigations to isolate untrusted code within a Windows Server instance. This is why you want to be careful to evaluate the risk of untrusted code for each Windows Server instance, and balance the security versus performance tradeoff for your environment.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 15:52 
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Get yerself a heatsink with Continuous Direct Contact technology, not one of those lame ones that just hover sometimes


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 15:53 
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I bought RAM with RGB custom lighting and I ain't even sorry


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 15:55 
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I'm a computery guy!

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Does it have jumpers?


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 15:56 
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DavPaz wrote:
Does it have jumpers?

Dunno, mobo isn't here yet. I doubt it though. Jumpers seem to be thoroughly obsolete now.

(The last PC I build totally had jumpers.)


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 15:57 
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Oohhh that's the same sort of RAM as in my PC.

Pro tip, the software is balls, and none of the other lighting options look as nice as the default, so just leave it as it is out of the box.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 16:01 
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Hearthly wrote:
Pro tip, the software is balls, and none of the other lighting options look as nice as the default, so just leave it as it is out of the box.

I, uhh, might have selected a Gigabyte motherboard specifically so I can link up the RGB control across mobo/case/RAM/maybe also my keyboard. That might be a thing I did.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 16:03 
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This is making me laugh, for some inexplicable reason

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 16:05 
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DBSnappa wrote:
This is making me laugh, for some inexplicable reason

After a decade on Macs, I am Back On My Bullshit. Edit -- and you've known me long enough to remember when I used to build PCs :)


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