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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 17:41 
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Quote:
Not bad considering how hot the GPU was running. I will be tackling it all next week, but, if I did my maths correctly it should all just literally slot in and I shouldn't have to use any new hose. The rad is the same thickness, same width and the same spacing between the G 1/4 ports. All I need to do is flush it all with distilled vinegar then I can build.


Can you do a video and put it on Youtube?


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 17:48 
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asfish wrote:
Quote:
Not bad considering how hot the GPU was running. I will be tackling it all next week, but, if I did my maths correctly it should all just literally slot in and I shouldn't have to use any new hose. The rad is the same thickness, same width and the same spacing between the G 1/4 ports. All I need to do is flush it all with distilled vinegar then I can build.


Can you do a video and put it on Youtube?


I'd prefer a 500 word article.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 17:59 
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500 word video?


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 18:02 
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South Park. :S

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 19:29 
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DavPaz wrote:
500 word video?


That's the best of both worlds; a video showing someone typing their opinions out in a Notepad window.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 19:34 
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Bamba wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
500 word video?


That's the best of both worlds; a video showing someone typing their opinions out in a Notepad window.

I think I've seen a few videos *exactly* like that


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 20:12 
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DavPaz wrote:
Bamba wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
500 word video?


That's the best of both worlds; a video showing someone typing their opinions out in a Notepad window.

I think I've seen a few videos *exactly* like that


Yeah me too haha. I think they obviously don't have confidence in their voice. They still go too fast :DD

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 20:16 
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JohnCoffey wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
Bamba wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
500 word video?


That's the best of both worlds; a video showing someone typing their opinions out in a Notepad window.

I think I've seen a few videos *exactly* like that


Yeah me too haha. I think they obviously don't have confidence in their voice. They still go too fast :DD


To be fair, whenever I've seen it done it's been quick and dirty stuff rather than lengthy lectures so it's probably someone that doesn't have a mic but can grab screen recording software easily. I've never seen anyone use that technique to present a lot of text, as that would be properly stupid.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 20:24 
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Bamba wrote:
JohnCoffey wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
Bamba wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
500 word video?


That's the best of both worlds; a video showing someone typing their opinions out in a Notepad window.

I think I've seen a few videos *exactly* like that


Yeah me too haha. I think they obviously don't have confidence in their voice. They still go too fast :DD


To be fair, whenever I've seen it done it's been quick and dirty stuff rather than lengthy lectures so it's probably someone that doesn't have a mic but can grab screen recording software easily. I've never seen anyone use that technique to present a lot of text, as that would be properly stupid.


It's annoying when you are following something verbatim and they open something by mistake lmao. Straight back to Google....

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 20:28 
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JohnCoffey wrote:
Bamba wrote:
JohnCoffey wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
Bamba wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
500 word video?


That's the best of both worlds; a video showing someone typing their opinions out in a Notepad window.

I think I've seen a few videos *exactly* like that


Yeah me too haha. I think they obviously don't have confidence in their voice. They still go too fast :DD


To be fair, whenever I've seen it done it's been quick and dirty stuff rather than lengthy lectures so it's probably someone that doesn't have a mic but can grab screen recording software easily. I've never seen anyone use that technique to present a lot of text, as that would be properly stupid.


It's annoying when you are following something verbatim and they open something by mistake lmao. Straight back to Google....


Oh, for sure. And if they don't put any required commands into the video description box so you can c&p then it quickly gets really stupid. On balance though I've been very grateful for some of these kind of things in the past and realise that YouTube gives people an easy way to 'publish' something that doesn't require too much effort on their part.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:55 
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Some big hits to home PC performance with Windows and BIOS updates applied to mitigate against Meltdown and Spectre.

How does your SSD performing 41% slower sound?

These are all Intel CPU benchmarks, the chap will be doing AMD benchmarks shortly.

It may be that AMD are hit a lot less or not at all, since their CPUs do this branch speculation stuff in a fundamentally different way (as I understand it), and are only vulnerable to 1 of the 3 exploits anyway.



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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:17 
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My PC is toast in a really interesting way: Windows has marked various chunks of RAM, splattered widely across the address space, as bad (ie put them in badmemorylist in the BCD) but memtest86 reports no errors on a 90 minute (and counting) run. Current working hypothesis is an L1/L2 cache fault resulting in intermittent memory read/write errors, which Windows runs for long enough to detect from time to time but memtest86 hasn’t (yet.) This exhibits as an error when attempting to install Windows updates at boot time with the message “cannot allocate ramdisk”, presumably because it’s trying to find a large chunk of contiguous memory. Either way, I’m fairly sure it’s deader than disco.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:35 
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Sounds like your upgrade just moved up the schedule!


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:49 
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Still going for Intel?

http://www.businessinsider.com/linus-to ... tel-2018-1

https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/1/3/797

Linus Torvalds isn't very impressed with them.

Quote:
A *competent* CPU engineer would fix this by making sure speculation doesn't happen across protection domains. Maybe even a L1 I$ that is keyed by CPL.

I think somebody inside of Intel needs to really take a long hard look at their CPU's, and actually admit that they have issues instead of writing PR blurbs that say that everything works as designed.

.. and that really means that all these mitigation patches should be written with "not all CPU's are crap" in mind.

Or is Intel basically saying "we are committed to selling you shit forever and ever, and never fixing anything"?


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 13:39 
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DavPaz wrote:
Sounds like your upgrade just moved up the schedule!

To be fair, the random crashes I was seeing was what prompted me to start pricing out systems this week. Now I have a better handle on what’s causing them though, and it appears to be a fatal wound!


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 13:41 
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Wow those SSD drops suck :(

I'm really hoping that my M.2 doesn't take a nose dive. It shouldn't because it's not NVME but yeah, a little worrying.

I did have this all explained to me by a guy who writes for CPC (Gareth Halfacree). He said that basically imagine a bike that you ride that crashes every time you turn left. So basically you have to learn to ride that bike only turning right. Eventually you will get to your destination, but it will take longer. That's the linux side (he writes Hobbytech).

And that may explain why the SSD is taking such a battering in performance. Ugh, trust me to go bloody Intel and be pleased about it.

I guess the fallout of this will be being noticed for quite a while to come yet.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 14:34 
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JohnCoffey wrote:
I did have this all explained to me by a guy who writes for CPC (Gareth Halfacree).


I remember him from some of the uk.comp newsgroups 15+ years back. A very nice chap indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 15:03 
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Dr Zoidberg wrote:
JohnCoffey wrote:
I did have this all explained to me by a guy who writes for CPC (Gareth Halfacree).


I remember him from some of the uk.comp newsgroups 15+ years back. A very nice chap indeed.


Yeah Gareth rules. TBH it's probably one of the only reasons I still buy CPC. The Hobbytech section at the back is fantastic :)

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 21:08 
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Subject if not thread relevant -

Nice to know that android is fine with the latest security patches.

However my Moto g5 is still on January 2017 because it turns out Motorola as a Lenovo imprint is disgustingly lax. I don't WANT to throw our phones in the bin but I was already getting twitchy before this...

Sure, the Oreo rollout is coming any day now, but will it actually be a remotely recent patch level, and even if it is, it's likely to be the final update.

(Ah, it's an a53 so not allegedly vulnerable anyway)


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 21:09 
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Re: Meltdown/Spectre

A good nontechnical writeup of how they were simultaneously discovered by four independent teams: https://www.wired.com/story/meltdown-sp ... discovery/

A fantastic writeup from 2005 when the Xbox 360’s PowerPC CPU suffered from a very similar issue: https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2018/ ... -xbox-360/ (don’t miss the final sentence about the job interview either... Plus ça change.) The bit where they make it stop crashing by changing code that was never run is just ::Italian chef kissing two fingers gesture::

A description of Retpoline, a Google-developed binary patching technique which protects against the bugs and claims to have almost no performance penalty (I have no insider information here, I’m quoting the doc): https://security.googleblog.com/2018/01 ... cpu_4.html

The whole thing has had me thinking a lot about this seminal essay by Joel Spolsky: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/11/ ... tractions/


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 22:00 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
A description of Retpoline, a Google-developed binary patching technique which protects against the bugs and claims to have almost no performance penalty (I have no insider information here, I’m quoting the doc): https://security.googleblog.com/2018/01 ... cpu_4.html


Interesting. I note they also say they've rolled out the KPTI OS patches in addition to that mitigation.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 0:10 
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I'm not reading all that. Can you make it into a 1 hour YouTube video please?

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:04 
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I don't think PCs should be triangular.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:34 
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Just about finished patching a 200 CPU farm running on SUSE

This is normaly used by scientists 24\7 so would have been a good test to see if there were performace drops

However they all like to use the GPU farm these days, so had to ask them to run some benchmarks and come back to me

There is a plan to increase\replace some CPU this year so interested to see what performace impact there is as it will affect what we need to buy.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:40 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Re: Meltdown/Spectre

Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned arse, but the idea of the CPU running code that it hasn't (yet) been explicitly told to run is horrifying to me.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:48 
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GazChap wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Re: Meltdown/Spectre

Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned arse, but the idea of the CPU running code that it hasn't (yet) been explicitly told to run is horrifying to me.

Well, to be fair, branch prediction and speculative execution is decades old and a significant speed up compared to not having it so... It’s worth noting that Itanium apparently doesn’t suffer from this because (I’m told) it enforces thread-level memory protection on cache lines. But the market didn’t want Itanium, it wanted more teetering hacks piled on top of x86.

Don’t forget your Intel CPU is also running an entire OS in microcode, too, with remote access and everything. In fact there’s three whole layers of stuff under your kernel you can’t see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine The days of CPUs dumbly chewing through in-order ASM instructions ended 20 years ago, we just didn’t notice at the time.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:51 
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Or as my old internet buddy put it on the day Meltdown was announced

https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/948820694376173569




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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:24 
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GazChap wrote:
Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned arse, but the idea of the CPU running code that it hasn't (yet) been explicitly told to run is horrifying to me.


It'd be fine if Intel didn't design their CPU architecture as Linus Torvalds gracefully phrased it, like 'shit'.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:51 
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Hearthly wrote:
GazChap wrote:
Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned arse, but the idea of the CPU running code that it hasn't (yet) been explicitly told to run is horrifying to me.


It'd be fine if Intel didn't design their CPU architecture as Linus Torvalds gracefully phrased it, like 'shit'.


Why does a peanuts character have an opinion on transistors?

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:54 
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Good grief

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:26 
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Hearthly wrote:
GazChap wrote:
Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned arse, but the idea of the CPU running code that it hasn't (yet) been explicitly told to run is horrifying to me.


It'd be fine if Intel didn't design their CPU architecture as Linus Torvalds gracefully phrased it, like 'shit'.


Let us note that Mr Torvalds has spent the last 20 years writing kernel code to take advantage of the performance gains provided by that exact CPU architecture and hasn't had cause to complain until now.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:29 
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Cras wrote:
Let us note that Mr Torvalds has spent the last 20 years writing kernel code to take advantage of the performance gains provided by that exact CPU architecture and hasn't had cause to complain until now.


Maybe he was running with the assumption that Intel's CPU would appropriately protect restricted kernel memory areas?

There's nothing wrong with the concept of speculative execution (it's a very good idea, in fact), it just needs to be implemented properly.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:29 
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Cras wrote:
Let us note that Mr Torvalds has spent the last 20 years writing kernel code to take advantage of the performance gains provided by that exact CPU architecture and hasn't had cause to complain until now.

Also Linus is an abusive bellend and his opinion that something is shit is basically meaningless. See e.g. https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/38136.html


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:40 
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Hearthly wrote:
Cras wrote:
Let us note that Mr Torvalds has spent the last 20 years writing kernel code to take advantage of the performance gains provided by that exact CPU architecture and hasn't had cause to complain until now.


Maybe he was running with the assumption that Intel's CPU would appropriately protect restricted kernel memory areas?
.


Then his assumptions are foolish. You don't work that close to the hardware level while making assumptions about how the hardware works. I'm not defending Intel here, I'm saying Torvalds views are (as they usually tend to be) opportunistic finger-pointing.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 13:37 
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Five year old PSU never opened..

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Opened.

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Not as bad as I thought. Cleaned it all through.

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Put back together.

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Caps were all fine. Then worked until 2 A.M removing everything, cleaning and then putting back.

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Just a Quadro in there for now so I can listen to my music :)

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Not seen it this clean since the day I got it over two years ago.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 15:19 
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Meltdown / Spectre like flaws on the Xbox 360 chips -found and resolved a long time ago (interesting read)

https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2018/ ... -xbox-360/


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 15:26 
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zaphod79 wrote:
Meltdown / Spectre like flaws on the Xbox 360 chips -found and resolved a long time ago (interesting read)

https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2018/ ... -xbox-360/

That's almost as good as when Gaywood posted about it!

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 15:28 
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Lonewolves wrote:
zaphod79 wrote:
Meltdown / Spectre like flaws on the Xbox 360 chips -found and resolved a long time ago (interesting read)

https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2018/ ... -xbox-360/

That's almost as good as when Gaywood posted about it!


Apologies - i missed that

It did also take me to this which i also found interesting (hardware bug on the original PS1)

https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DaveBag ... g_Ever.php


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 20:44 
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Anyone's work patching the clients yet?

In addition to the Windows patch levels Grim posted on this thread, I was told that we may need to do Bios update as well

Have a call with the client lead tomorrow to see if this is true.

One silver lining to this is that all the fence sitters in IT that were blocking the deployment of Anniversary (because it took so long to deploy) can now tell users its Intel fault for the disruption so we have a green light for that at least.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 22:33 
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Speculative Execution would be a great name for a metal band (and a logo with nearly unreadable lettering)

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:53 
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@docg Intel actually put *an entire x86 CPU* in their x86 CPUs now just for the management stuff, not just microcode on the main cores.

Apparently even the people it's for don't generally turn it on, which is handy given it's exploitable. (Oh wait, that's AMT, not ME)

Your chum mjg blogged about it.https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/49788.html


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:04 
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Some performance comments straight from MS.

https://cloudblogs.microsoft.com/micros ... rce=Direct

Quote:
Here is the summary of what we have found so far:

With Windows 10 on newer silicon (2016-era PCs with Skylake, Kabylake or newer CPU), benchmarks show single-digit slowdowns, but we don’t expect most users to notice a change because these percentages are reflected in milliseconds.

With Windows 10 on older silicon (2015-era PCs with Haswell or older CPU), some benchmarks show more significant slowdowns, and we expect that some users will notice a decrease in system performance.

With Windows 8 and Windows 7 on older silicon (2015-era PCs with Haswell or older CPU), we expect most users to notice a decrease in system performance.

Windows Server on any silicon, especially in any IO-intensive application, shows a more significant performance impact when you enable the mitigations to isolate untrusted code within a Windows Server instance. This is why you want to be careful to evaluate the risk of untrusted code for each Windows Server instance, and balance the security versus performance tradeoff for your environment.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 15:52 
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Get yerself a heatsink with Continuous Direct Contact technology, not one of those lame ones that just hover sometimes


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 15:53 
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I bought RAM with RGB custom lighting and I ain't even sorry


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 15:55 
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Does it have jumpers?


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 15:56 
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DavPaz wrote:
Does it have jumpers?

Dunno, mobo isn't here yet. I doubt it though. Jumpers seem to be thoroughly obsolete now.

(The last PC I build totally had jumpers.)


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 15:57 
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Oohhh that's the same sort of RAM as in my PC.

Pro tip, the software is balls, and none of the other lighting options look as nice as the default, so just leave it as it is out of the box.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 16:01 
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Hearthly wrote:
Pro tip, the software is balls, and none of the other lighting options look as nice as the default, so just leave it as it is out of the box.

I, uhh, might have selected a Gigabyte motherboard specifically so I can link up the RGB control across mobo/case/RAM/maybe also my keyboard. That might be a thing I did.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 16:03 
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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 16:05 
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Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 32618
DBSnappa wrote:
This is making me laugh, for some inexplicable reason

After a decade on Macs, I am Back On My Bullshit. Edit -- and you've known me long enough to remember when I used to build PCs :)


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