Be Excellent To Each Other

I think Nemmie has got to be the closest here, vibrations can cause numbness, but as to what's causing the vibrations, could it be that the fabric on the needle is "dampning" the resonant frequency of the needle to the exact frequency that Mimi knits?

Mimi, what happens if you speed up or slow down your knitting action?

Malc

The scarf gets made faster, or slower.

Hi Mimi, quick input from me sweetie as I’m still in ‘sulking flounce mode’ being the immature buffoon that I am, however this is a clear health issue which does rather take precedence!

In short, please stop using these needles immediately. Whilst I am unclear as to the actual vibration-inducing mechanism that’s at work here (probably a combination of low needle stiffness as you describe = low resonant frequency, lack of needle damping and slip-stick friction at the needle tips, combined with your particular needle grip, speed and the type of materials being used), what is clear from the symptoms you describe is that it’s not going to do you any favours in the long term.

The symptoms you describe (pins and needles, numbness, aching – finger blanching and coldness would be next) are classical early onset ‘vibration white finger’. Whilst it should be no problem if you stop now and shouldn’t be anything to worry about at this stage IMO, you don’t want to continue exposing yourself to this ‘occupational vibration’.

Here’s a linky for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibration_white_finger

Take care.


Cavey

Stand down Doc. It's Cavey time.

But how would the vibration in the hands be causing nausea?



If that was the case, then adding a weight to the needle (like a lump of plasticine on the end) should de-tune it.

We like games too, honest!

I already suggested that. But it is very unlikely with such a small level of vibration and without any history of that (i.e. due to chainsaw or jackhammer use). And it doesn't cause nausea.

Stand back Cavey. It's Kalmar time!

You mean Mimi's not a lumberjack?

When I've used hammer drills before, and had my shoulder effected by the vibrations, it made me feel quite sick too. could not the vibrations travel?

Also, I said closest and not spot on!

Malc

She's still ok, though.

Whilst I accept that the symptoms are worrying, can it really be VWF, Cavey? The energy associated with a knitting needle, even one being driven perfectly at some resonant frequency, is going to be tiny. VWF comes from using industrial machinery like jackhammers.

Also, what kalmar typed after me but before I was interrupted by work.

Disagree. How do we know it's 'such a small level of vibration'? If Mimi can clearly feel significant vibration as she describes, I don't agree with that analysis at all. Besides, the pins and needles and numbness are classical early symptoms of neural stress and as you should know, an individual's susceptibility to occupational vibration varies enormously.

Seems pretty clear cut to me; why risk continuing to use these needles when there's a reasonable possibility of harm being done? I wanted to make sure Mimi was forwarned with this information as a possibility, from someone who's reasonably informed on the subject, for her own wellbeing - I am not trying to score points. So, mission accomplished then.

My understanding of resonance is that it's not the size of the force, it's the persistancy that causes the effect.

Mal

Mimi, yesterday:

Nobody is suggesting she should. What we are trying to do, is to find out what is actually the source of the problem, in a measured way, without jumping to conclusions or recommending solutions without being in possession of all the facts.

Well I've carried out numerous triaxial vibration measurements of a wide variety of tools Doc; you'd be surprised. Of course, jackhammers, angle grinders and kango drills etc. are extreme examples - these invariably produce massively significant HAV levels. However, seemingly innocuous tools can certainly produce some HAV also, and people's susceptibility to it does vary very widely indeed.

I must admit it's indeed surpising that the needles produce this vibration, but Mimi's account seems pretty clear to me, I see no reason to doubt the veracity of it - the vibration is clearly present as she's described. And that being the case, taking the symptoms she's describing, a 'safety first' approach of stopping their use as I describe seems reasonable enough to me? It's her call though of course.

Could it be the "grabbiness" of the two needles rubbing up against each other causing vibration? Could the thread/wool type also be causing this with this type of needle?

mmm where is Iron Side when you need him...

Also consider how easily Mimi is affected by alcohol, she may simply have a low tolerance to physics and science. Or she may be pissed.

True enough.

http://hither-n-yarn.blogspot.com/2007/04/its-all-in-fingers.html is interesting.

Hi! Welcome to the Internet. I take it you are new here?

So that's where you've been, you dirty souldier.

You really are obnoxious aren't you?

Unless someone is going to go to Mimi's house with a triaxial vibration transducer and HAV meter, 'the facts' (i.e. extent of HAV exposure, if any) aren't going to be established, are they now? And given that's the case, we can only work with what we've got, i.e. a clear description of significant vibration resulting in pins and needles and numbness, which as I've said are classic VWF early onset symptoms. So then, it would seem perfectly reasonable to state this as a real possibility for Mimi's own sake so that she's aware, and take whatever course of action she feels best, within the obvious limitations of what we can know.

If you're proposing to take competent HAV measurements on this, I'll await the results with interest and will be quite prepared to be stand corrected in those circumstances. However, assuming that you're not going to go to this trouble, how about you just wind your neck in and put your petty little personal agenda against me aside, in the face of my simply trying to help another member here? This didn't even concern you.

What about using one of the acrylic needles and one of a different material in combination? *

Maybe the 'grabbyness' of the acrylic needles means they don't slide over each other nice and smoothly but instead in a juddery way, so could it be that it might not be the stitches moving up the needle causing the vibrations, but the needles touching each other?

EDIT: * Don't do this though if you don't feel comfortable though, it's more just out of curiosity really.

Don't start throwing insults around again, Cavey You'll just get annoyed at yourself again.

*screws up piece of paper with '2 hours' written on it*

Damn.

Mimi, do you live near any ley lines?

Who had 31 minutes?

My bed is on a lay line WOOF WOOF </Flashheart>

Heh, whatever.
I'll still try and help someone out if *I* think I could prevent them from hurting themselves etc. irresespective of any hostility or anything else from other quarters, just as I'll react precisely as I see fit to anyone else responding to said post(s) in what I consider to be an entirely inappropriate manner.

Man, you try and help someone out and get crap for even that. Nice.

I love that Mimi feels sick while knitting and all of a sudden we need a "triaxial vibration transducer" to solve the problem

My bet: it'll pass in 9 months.

You seem very touchy Cavey, I didn't think any response to your posts carried any venom. Hope everything's ok, mate.

Thin skin, weak brain. Other than that I'm sure he's fine.

Yes, I am aware this could be construed as antagonistic. But frankly he reads everything as being antagonistic anyway, so I may as well embrace it.

Oh, the Zio explanation!

No I'm fine mate, but thanks for asking anyway. I trust things are OK with you.

I honestly couldn't see anything remotely contentious with my original post; for my sins I have conducted a great many HAV assessments in my line of work. Whilst I'm no doctor and the 'facts' are certainly limited, I thought I could use my knowledge of this particular field of expertise to help someone. Unfortunately however, things are never that simple here, as many of the subsequent responses and the sentiments behind them (with homnourable exceptions such as The Doc ), so amply demonstrate. No matter though, I'm sure I'll get over it.

Well I've taken her for a Guinness and the shaking seems to have stopped.

So, have there been other threads on here with fighting in them recently or what?

No, it's been really peaceful for the last month or so.

Just the SF4 thread LOL

Presumably because she's now sleeping?

Also, JC was getting a bit lairy with the CAPS and fucking bold text the other day.

Since Mr Chris fucked off and did us all a favor

Caps AND Bold?!

Was anyone hurt?

I said recently, not three months ago LOLZOR

She's not me. She'll do some spacky typing first.

Stop being such a jessie.

I occasionally feel like my leg is vibrating for no apparent reason. Like I've got a phone in my pocket on vibrate, only there isn't one.

Also, get over it.

Hi guys!

Firstly, stop arguing. I love you all equally.

Now,

As for a few things that have been aslked:

I have suffered with reynaud's syndroome in my toes and fingers - not so much now but when I was at Uni sometimes my fingers, or my toes, would sometimes lose feeling and go white and look like it was made of wax, but this was only when I was very cold, and why I wear mittens even in autumn. I have never known that it might be triggered by vibarartion, so maybe this is it.

The vibration is quite noticeable - I can feel it to the point where it feels like when I am brushing my teeth with one of those re-chargeable toothbrushes. Also, it makes me teeth feel 'smooth', like when I am on a bus jorurney and it makes my jaw feel numb (bus journeys also make me feel nauseous though... I don't know if that is related.

I have never, ever experienced this with other needles made of different materials - I have just switched the tips to wooden tips of the same gauge and it has stopped.

I do think it is the vibration rather than a chemical problem, because it s only affecting my left hand, which is the hand holding the needle that the stitches 'feed' from, and so the needle where the stitches are constantly movong along and causing the problem.

I do think I will do as Cavey says though - I do have other needle tips which I can use, and as I tried it again today to see if it still happened I don't think it is worth pursuing when I do have other needle options available. I just wondered if what I thought it might be was even possible... I have never heard of such a thing before, but then I have never used needles with these properties before - ether - the are brand new to the market and just launched or about to launch in the UK, so there isn't much infoormation on them yet, though they are made by a company that manufacers other needles (including the ones I have switched to) that are made of nickle-plate and laminated birch (both far 'firmer' needles).

Parm - I am on Ravelry, indeed I asked here because the folks here have a good level of science/nerd/research clout and I had already searched the Rav forums to see if I could find something similar, but have found no answers. I will not ask there quite yet as it is a) a new product to the market so not many people will have tried them and b) the forms there are, shall we say, a little 'touchy' if you ever find anything negative about anything... I probably will ask in time, but I thought I'd throw the idea out to the folks here as there are many knowledgeable folks

edited my spelings for mistakes. Read through six times because of guiness so typed slowly

edited to add that my finegsr did not go waxy white like they do in teh cold, but was like pins and needles. What nemmis said about feeling sick might also be a god point.

Also going to edit to say Hi to Cavey, who has been absent Nice to see you

Hiya! I just wanted to say, I think that reading Mimi's post the assumption was that the vibrations couldn't be that strong and so when you suggested White Finger people perhaps thought that seemed a bit over the top. I have to admit I thought it seemed a bit excessive as well since I work with power tools- I think in this instance a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I know that even using a pretty heavy drill for a short period I don't experience any side effects and so I dismiss the idea that such light vibrations as those recieved from a knitting needle could cause side effects.
Obviously though in this instance your knowledge in that particular field is more complete than ours. You also seem to have been checking the forum but not commenting recently to avoid any confrontations and so perhaps that subconciously when reading posts in response to you, you were already preparing yourself for a disagreement. Therefore when people expressed disbelief at you suggesting what sounded to most people who have knowledge of white finger (but not the extensive knowledge you seem to have) as an over the top solution, you were perhaps on the defensive where normally you would have explained your reasons as you then went on to do.
I hope you realise no one was having I go ( I don't think), I think you make our discussions more interesting since otherwise it can sometimes be a bunch of people expressing the same opinion but using different words

Well, in light of the link I posted earlier, I think that's highly relevent.