Political Banter and Debate Thread

Malc · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 13:25

forget that I assume you mean private eye...

Malc wrote:

MaliA wrote:

Lonewolves wrote:

The Guardian have never been pro-Corbyn though. Plenty of articles criticising him.

There was something in the Eye the other week, I'll see if I can find it later.

Did you mean this?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jer ... 44381.html

MaliA · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 13:30

Malc wrote:

forget that I assume you mean private eye...

Malc wrote:

MaliA wrote:

Lonewolves wrote:

The Guardian have never been pro-Corbyn though. Plenty of articles criticising him.

There was something in the Eye the other week, I'll see if I can find it later.

Did you mean this?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jer ... 44381.html

Yeah. Private eye.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Cavey wrote:

Squirt wrote:

However most libertarians i've come across are very anti-union.

As indeed am I; I'd go as far to say that, certainly for as long I've been alive, unions are have been, and are, an almost entirely unmitigated curse IMO.
Just look at all the successful, growing, dynamic economies of the world; millionaires created by the thousands; hundreds of millions lifted from poverty through trickle-down economics, and not many of 'em having to deal with the likes of Len bloody McCluskey and his ilk, I can tell you.

Just look at the gun-held-to-head situation of tube drivers or similar, where we are blackmailed/fleeced into keeping people in unnecessary/superfluous jobs on near-constant pain of all-out, massively damaging to the wider economy strikes - it's the least-bad option (or so it is argued) to keep on appeasing and coughing up. This is bad enough for those last remaining, seemingly irreducible bits of the public sector economy - but by heck it used to be pretty much ALL of the economy, well within living memory for me, a man still only in his forties.

I think unions are a very tricky concept. Yes, there are undoubtedly situations where unions overreach to the detriment of employers and staff - the late 70s/early 80s had a number of such situations, and yes I think there's much to be said for the RMT doing the same in recent years. However, employees are weak - the threat of job loss is too high, and they can't afford to individually litigate, so the ability of a union to provide for collective bargaining is utterly essential. Union leaders, business leaders, and politicians have to work together to ensure the right lines are trod.

I shudder to imagine the state the NHS would be in now without union representation.

Cavey · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 13:35

Yeah, the NHS.... Nothing to see there, huh.

I shudder to see the state it's in WITH union representation. If it was a company it would've gone bust a thousand times over.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Cavey wrote:

Obviously there's a balance to be struck between ever greater cost/overhead inflation to keeping people "happy", and hard-nosed, real world economy good business - especially when competitor countries/new economies are doing no such thing. Yeah, "race to the bottom yada yada blah blah" etc., but there it is - and it's most especially the smallest, leanest companies, the very tax-paying backbone of the British economy, who can most ill afford either the actual costs or resources needed.

Good business doesn't need to mean maximised profits though. You don't have to shave every expense to the bone to retain profitability - treat your workers well and you gain in retention, which means reduced retraining costs, higher overall skills base, lower costs of managing error. It is absolutely a balancing act, but I'm not sure I can think of a single piece of worker-protection legislation that's been put in place over the last twenty years that is actually detrimental to business interests - except in the instances where employers are actively trying to pull an arsehole move (like firing people for trumped up reasons to avoid paying redundancy).

Cavey · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 14:00

Mate, I don't claim to know it all, far from it, but I've been running my little firm for nearly 2 decades now - you do pick up some stuff in all that time.

A sweatshop this ain't; I pay miles above average salaries and have just forked out £50,000 in (British made) state-of-the-art equipment in the last month alone. Fifty grand! Little ol' me!
Man-management absolutely must be sustainable, and loyalty swings BOTH ways, and has to be earned BOTH ways.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Cavey wrote:

Mate, I don't claim to know it all, far from it, but I've been running my little firm for nearly 2 decades now - you do pick up some stuff in all that time.

A sweatshop this ain't; I pay miles above average salaries and have just forked out £50,000 in (British made) state-of-the-art equipment in the last month alone. Fifty grand! Little ol' me!
Man-management absolutely must be sustainable, and loyalty swings BOTH ways, and has to be earned BOTH ways.

I don't think we're disagreeing, mostly

As someone actually running a business out there - is there employment legislation that is unfairly burdensome on your specific company, do you think? If so, what is it?

Cavey · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 14:26

For us, as a tiny little firm bobbing like a cork on the ocean, the biggest issue is high corporate taxation. It irks me no end that I'm forking out £250,000 in taxes every year (cumulative Corporation Tax, employee NIC contribution, VAT), from the sweat of my brow, yet the big boys get away with paying next to nowt.

If ever we needed small-scale, sustainable entrepreneurs and investors in UK people and products to come forward, it's now; we should not be taxing them half to death. Sure, I'll no doubt get the "you seem to be doing okay in your Porsche and country pile" type comments - but so I, and others like me bloody well should be, with our houses on the line and years of working ridiculous hours and sleepless nights, not the asset-strippers, pension pot raiders, bankers and non-domiciled tax-evaders. But then, so it is ever thus.

Anonymous X · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 2046

Corporation tax isn't "employment legislation", it's taxation policy.

Grim... · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 15:15

It doesn't take a massive amount of reading between the lines to realise that Cavey meant that corp tax is the most burdensome thing his company deals with, rather than any employment legislation.

I am interested in why you pay VAT though, Cavey?

myp · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 15:20

Grim... wrote:

It doesn't take a massive amount of reading between the lines to realise that Cavey meant that corp tax is the most burdensome thing his company deals with, rather than any employment legislation.

It doesn't really answer Cras's question though, considering it was part of a wider discussion about unions and employment law.

Cavey · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 15:26

Grim... wrote:

It doesn't take a massive amount of reading between the lines to realise that Cavey meant that corp tax is the most burdensome thing his company deals with, rather than any employment legislation.

Right?

You'd think so, but hey....

Quote:

I am interested in why you pay VAT though, Cavey?

It's probably a bit of a cheat me mentioning VAT; we obviously have to pay it as against every invoice we raise, but our clients are paying us the VAT in the first place. Still, one way or another, ever after all offsetting our own reclaimable VAT and suchlike, our invoices raise £100k VAT a year or thereabouts for Customs & Excise.

Malc · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 15:40

Cavey wrote:

Grim... wrote:

It doesn't take a massive amount of reading between the lines to realise that Cavey meant that corp tax is the most burdensome thing his company deals with, rather than any employment legislation.

Right?

You'd think so, but hey....

Quote:

I am interested in why you pay VAT though, Cavey?

It's probably a bit of a cheat me mentioning VAT; we obviously have to pay it as against every invoice we raise, but our clients are paying us the VAT in the first place. Still, one way or another, ever after all offsetting our own reclaimable VAT and suchlike, our invoices raise £100k VAT a year or thereabouts for Customs & Excise.

Isn't that just the VAT on your profit then?

ie you buy raw materials for say £100+VAT and pay your £120, then you do stuff to them and sell them at £500+VAT, so the customer pays you £600, you send the £80 to HMRC, isn't the £100K just that?

Cavey · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 15:44

No, £100k is our net VAT on our fees - which include our costs and profit, everything basically.
If, by existing at all, we pay £100k VAT each year, then to my simplistic mind, that's a tax contribution and payment. But I'm an engineer, not an accountant.

The point - or at least my point - is that, even some tin-pot little outfit like mine still pays vast sums in tax, one way or another, whereas there are plenty much, much better off than me who get away with paying much less in proportion, and that narks me off.
It also irritates me no end to see my hard earned being wasted left, right and centre, but that's another story.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 16:46

Cavey wrote:

It also irritates me no end to see my hard earned being wasted left, right and centre, but that's another story.

Women, right?

Cavey · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 16:48

Curiosity wrote:

Cavey wrote:

It also irritates me no end to see my hard earned being wasted left, right and centre, but that's another story.

Women, right?

That's not what I meant, you naughty man

MaliA · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 16:49

Curiosity wrote:

Cavey wrote:

It also irritates me no end to see my hard earned being wasted left, right and centre, but that's another story.

Women, right?

Cavey · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 16:53

I just thought, imagine if we started an "blimmin' expensive wimminz" thread moaning about expensive wives, I think Myp and Meems would blow a collective master fuse

It's bloody true though

Pundabaya · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 5016

Cavey wrote:

It also irritates me no end to see my hard earned being wasted left, right and centre, but that's another story.

*Rubs his little paws together at the thought of the £2380* civil servant pay going into his account on Friday*

And it's all your money, Cavey! ALL OF IT! Mwuahahahhah!

top line, includes £625 annual 'bonus' and two days of of overtime, net about £1700

MaliA · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 18:24

Bonus and overtime?

Edit: not to say I am not pleased you get it, more than I don't.

Edit2: I think I am least 15% behind market rate now. I shoukd do something more about that.

Cavey · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 18:24

Tchoh! I think you owe me a pint, Pundy!

MaliA · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 18:27

Cavey wrote:

:D

Tchoh! I think you owe me a pint, Pundy!

THIS IS HOW PFI BEGINS

Cavey · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 18:29

MaliA wrote:

Cavey wrote:

:D

Tchoh! I think you owe me a pint, Pundy!

THIS IS HOW PFI BEGINS

MaliA · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 18:30

Cavey wrote:

I just thought, imagine if we started an "blimmin' expensive wimminz" thread moaning about expensive wives, I think Myp and Meems would blow a collective master fuse

It's bloody true though

MrsA would read it. You wouldn't want that.

Cavey · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 18:30

MaliA wrote:

Cavey wrote:

I just thought, imagine if we started an "blimmin' expensive wimminz" thread moaning about expensive wives, I think Myp and Meems would blow a collective master fuse

It's bloody true though

MrsA would read it. You wouldn't want that.

Moreover, Mrs C would read it, and I really wouldn't want that.

Cavey · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 18:32

I didn't realise Pundy was a Civil Servant though.
Man, how excellent would it be if he's in charge of municipal bin collections.

MaliA · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 18:34

Cavey wrote:

MaliA wrote:

Cavey wrote:

I just thought, imagine if we started an "blimmin' expensive wimminz" thread moaning about expensive wives, I think Myp and Meems would blow a collective master fuse

It's bloody true though

MrsA would read it. You wouldn't want that.

Moreover, Mrs C would read it, and I really wouldn't want that.

Good news, my man: "A coward dies a thousand deaths" said someone. The good news for you is I only need you to die twice.

MaliA · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 18:34

Cavey wrote:

I didn't realise Pundy was a Civil Servant though.
Man, how excellent would it be if he's in charge of municipal bin collections.

Hahahaha. Suoerb.

myp · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 18:40

Cavey wrote:

I just thought, imagine if we started an "blimmin' expensive wimminz" thread moaning about expensive wives, I think Myp and Meems would blow a collective master fuse

It's bloody true though

For different reasons though

Pundabaya · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 5016

...fuck off with your bins.

Cavey · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 18:45

Bins...... they're your nemesis!

myp · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 18:48

I love that my salary comes indirectly at shareholder expense tbh.

Cavey · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 18:50

Lonewolves wrote:

I love that my salary comes indirectly at shareholder expense tbh.

Shit man, even I might do too, depending on the firm....

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

I work for a bank, my salary comes at the expense of the entire British economy.

myp · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 19:00

Cavey wrote:

Lonewolves wrote:

I love that my salary comes indirectly at shareholder expense tbh.

Shit man, even I might do too, depending on the firm....

Think shit printers and PCs

Curiosity · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 19:04

Cras wrote:

:shrug:

I work for a bank, my salary comes at the expense of the entire British economy.

myp · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 19:07

Cras wrote:

:shrug:

I work for a bank, my salary comes at the expense of the entire British economy.

That's some comfort then. You won't have a salary at all soon.

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 25594

Cavey wrote:

I just thought, imagine if we started an "blimmin' expensive wimminz" thread moaning about expensive wives, I think Myp and Meems would blow a collective master fuse

It's bloody true though

Me? No. Some women are expensive and demanding. As are some men. I'm not one of them. I'd be really offended and hurt if Russell misrepresented me that way, but I know he wouldn't. If other people mean about their expensive other halves, though, it wouldn't bother me

MaliA · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 20:26

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... s-industry

Amazing.

myp · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 20:31

MaliA wrote:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/25/john-mcdonnell-jeremy-corbyn-uk-pharmaceuticals-industry

Amazing.

Reading the whole thing rather than just the headline it doesn't seem to be a big deal to me. :shrug:

Bobbyaro · **Joined:** 18th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 11843

Cavey, what does your company do? (Don't answer if you feel too much personal info on t'internet - I completely understand that, just interested).

Grim... · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 21:03

Mimi wrote:

Some women are expensive and demanding. As are some men. I'm not one of them.

Of course you're not. You're one of the women

ApplePieOfDestiny · **Joined:** 17th Dec, 2008 **Posts:** 8293

Lonewolves wrote:

MaliA wrote:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/25/john-mcdonnell-jeremy-corbyn-uk-pharmaceuticals-industry

Amazing.

Reading the whole thing rather than just the headline it doesn't seem to be a big deal to me. :shrug:

Quite. I'm a deeper shade of blue than many around these parts and I would wholly support scrapping and reforming the so called 'innovation' tax reliefs in exactly the way they propose. Abusive and distortive shits that they are.*

*Patent Box and R&D, or Corbyn and Mcdonnell. Either grouping is equally valid.

Mr Dave · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 22:05

Lonewolves wrote:

MaliA wrote:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/25/john-mcdonnell-jeremy-corbyn-uk-pharmaceuticals-industry

Amazing.

Reading the whole thing rather than just the headline it doesn't seem to be a big deal to me. :shrug:

It's rather telling that the two people who have raised a considerable eyebrow at this are the two who have done biochemical type degree things.

Corbyn hasn't got a clue what hes talking about.

ApplePieOfDestiny · **Joined:** 17th Dec, 2008 **Posts:** 8293

Mr Dave wrote:

Lonewolves wrote:

MaliA wrote:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/25/john-mcdonnell-jeremy-corbyn-uk-pharmaceuticals-industry

Amazing.

Reading the whole thing rather than just the headline it doesn't seem to be a big deal to me. :shrug:

It's rather telling that the two people who have raised a considerable eyebrow at this are the two who have done biochemical type degree things.

Corbyn hasn't got a clue what hes talking about.

But there is no reference to them criticising pharma. They're criticising the 'innovation regimes' from which pharma benefits, but by no means as the biggest beneficiary.

In the year that the Patent Box was introduced, the company registering most patents to benefit from the regime was Barclays.

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 25594

Grim... wrote:

Mimi wrote:

Some women are expensive and demanding. As are some men. I'm not one of them.

Of course you're not. You're one of the women

Damn, out-logicked again!

(Because, stuff spelling).

(And grammar).

MaliA · **Posted:** Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:44

Lonewolves wrote:

MaliA wrote:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/25/john-mcdonnell-jeremy-corbyn-uk-pharmaceuticals-industry

Amazing.

Reading the whole thing rather than just the headline it doesn't seem to be a big deal to me. :shrug:

2014: Big Pharms good. Need to ensure they are about so we can profit.

2016:Owen used to work for Big Pharms! Big Pharma bad! Owen bad! Stop big pharma!

It's neither here nor there how good the policy is or isn't. It's another example of the not at all joined up thinking.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:05

MaliA wrote:

Lonewolves wrote:

MaliA wrote:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/25/john-mcdonnell-jeremy-corbyn-uk-pharmaceuticals-industry

Amazing.

Reading the whole thing rather than just the headline it doesn't seem to be a big deal to me. :shrug:

2014: Big Pharms good. Need to ensure they are about so we can profit.

2016:Owen used to work for Big Pharms! Big Pharma bad! Owen bad! Stop big pharma!

It's neither here nor there how good the policy is or isn't. It's another example of the not at all joined up thinking.

Whereas, on the other side of the aisle:

2016: Brexit good!

2016: Brexit bad!

2016: Brexit is Brexit!

2016: Fox hunting is the real issue!

2016: Brexit later!

2016: Brexit now!

2016: Brexit soonish!

2016: I resign!

2016: I back stab you!

2016: I treat the economic wellbeing of the country as a jolly jape to further my own personal career!

As joined up thinking as it gets.

MaliA · **Posted:** Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:30

Curiosity wrote:

MaliA wrote:

Lonewolves wrote:

MaliA wrote:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/25/john-mcdonnell-jeremy-corbyn-uk-pharmaceuticals-industry

Amazing.

Reading the whole thing rather than just the headline it doesn't seem to be a big deal to me. :shrug:

2014: Big Pharms good. Need to ensure they are about so we can profit.

2016:Owen used to work for Big Pharms! Big Pharma bad! Owen bad! Stop big pharma!

It's neither here nor there how good the policy is or isn't. It's another example of the not at all joined up thinking.

Whereas, on the other side of the aisle:

2016: Brexit good!

2016: Brexit bad!

2016: Brexit is Brexit!

2016: Fox hunting is the real issue!

2016: Brexit later!

2016: Brexit now!

2016: Brexit soonish!

2016: I resign!

2016: I back stab you!

2016: I treat the economic wellbeing of the country as a jolly jape to further my own personal career!

As joined up thinking as it gets.

Whataboutery!

Cavey · **Posted:** Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:36

Plus rather silly.
Curio must still be fuming at Corbyn's built in quarter-hourly Belm Chimes function.

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