Be Excellent To Each Other

Meh. This scrabbling to pretend/insist that it doesn't exist and shouldn't be talked about (it's a right wing conspiracy etc when even the most cursory glance at the typical antics and shamings on Twitter prove very much it's real and as people here have found out, to give but one clear example) is ironically itself an example of Political Correctness, a stifling of reality, a mass self-delusion and avoidance of inconvenient truths. It's actually pretty damn funny.

If only someone had already said it in this thread, today.

A lot of stuff gets kind of repetitive in this thread at times, so I may have skipped over it. JBR is a nice fresh voice, so I probably more than skinned his post.

Also; this 'Political Correctness isn't even a thing' bit... It may have started off as an ironic nod towards an overreaction to one group or another being asked to think of marginalised groups in a decent and courteous way, but if organisations now use the thinking as a yardstick for their communications and interactions then it may have become an actual thing out of that? Also, it's just a term, and some may well see it as being a synonym for 'thoughtful', 'mindful', courteous, etc. It's true they may not realise that it may have started in some other fashion, but so what? I know that not everyone sees being 'politically correct' as a negative imposition on free speech by society, or being overzealous not to offend by stripping language to its blandest elements in an effort to not misspeaks. Some people/organisations etc see it just as the common term to actually do the right thing, whether the original usage was that or not.

We actually encountered this at work, we had a detector that was labelled master and another as slave; a black colleague pointed out that there were negative connotations with the nomenclature - something his white colleagues had not thought about. They are now called primary and secondary; no one got upset with this change, and a few people gained a bit of knowledge and insight.


*or as myp likes to call it, "had our privileges checked"

It is not "PC gone mad", it is adjusting your sights based upon increased perception.

Bit of a hard piece on Bradford but covers what I said. It's tricky for Labour, especially, as their campaigning for equality and more women on executive boards looks stupid when they hold meetings segregated by gender.

Good stuff.

Indeed. I completely agree.

My contention is that people have always nitpicked and stuck their oar in, and we used to call that 'busybodying'. Now, certainly, the people who would always have done it have a general idea of 'ooooh, you're naughty, you're offensive' to hang their busybodying on, and that gets mislabelled as 'PC'. But the busybodies would have just hung it on something else in a different time, so the behaviour would still have happened. And been irritating. The 'conspiracy' is the wilful conflation of 'real' PCness and the busybodies in order to ridicule the PC world and subvert it, because reactionaries can't cope with change. Which makes the world very difficult for them, because it's always changing. Bless their little hearts.

None of that is aimed at you personally, overtly or covertly.

I've never understood this line of thinking, unthinkingly defending the status quo. Just because something has been deemed acceptable for X number of years doesn't necessarily make it so any more. Language and society evolves all the time.

Also, "used without complaint for decades". I would strongly challenge that comment. Maybe complaints you've never seen or been taken seriously, perhaps.

Unfortunately I'm very busy today so don't have much time (believe me, I'd much rather be having interesting discussions, but the bills have to be paid )
Briefly, though, what you've just said, Bobby, entirely contradicts what JBR said earlier about asfish's example just being down to one busybody or whatever. According to you, this is actually a good thing, and "insightful" that we all learned that we mustn't call fucking computer hard disks "master" and "slave" units. I see this contradiction from the Left at all times; indeed on this very forum, we've gone from Political Correctness doesn't exist, it does exist but only in the sense it's good manners; it does exist but it's just the odd 'busybody' giving everyone a bad name; it does exist and it's entirely a good thing too (you bastard).

To a fair chunk of the 'normal' population outside of the London Chattering Classes, it's a combination of the bewildering and the absurd, this 'master and slave' hard disk being but one of many, many examples. We look on in abject horror and incredulity at the 'Twitstorms' on Twitter and social media, where someone - quite often even someone from the luvvie set - saying the wrong thing or the wrong word - and then it's 'pile on' and they're dog meat.

The thing to remember is, many of us who criticise the absurd overreactions of others are every bit as anti REAL bigotry, racism, homophobia etc. as anyone else; we don't sit misty-eyed over video recordings of Jim Davidson's 80s stand up or episodes of Love Thy Neighbour. No, apart from the de facto, very real MASS GROUP CENSORSHIP and gagging that Political Correctness has very much become, and is (obviously a bad thing), the more oft overlooked aspect, I suggest, is this: these ABSURD objections like we're discussing here actually bring REAL, LEGITIMATE objections about real racism, bigotry into disrepute. I mean seriously, like I've said, to a normal, sensible person the very notion of not being able to refer to an inanimate hard drive as a "master" unit of whatever is going to immediately give rise to a "bloody PC tosser" type reaction, and if they hear this stuff often enough, or worse, are forced to change their behaviors over such petty, manifestly stupid reasons, the chances are they could really start to resent all attempts, including justified and legitimate ones, to modify people's behaviors. That's not good, and could conceivably and ultimately lead to an unhelpful and unpleasant backlash that could set us all back years.

"not being able", "forced" - emotive words for stuff that... doesn't happen. If anything, someone who has a suggestion made to them and flies off the handle, claiming they are 'being forced' is the lunatic. In Bobby's example; suggestion made, people agreed, minor change made, end of story, no wider impact. No forcing, no mind control. And you're free to believe and think what you want. People who are a twat in public (see racism at football matches) are more likely to be called out on it (so racism still occurs, but some of the time, just some, people are removed or banned or whatever).

This isn't just about overt racism, also. This is about continual, perpetual covert racism, the sort of insidious stuff that perpetuates even vaguely that there is a reason for one group of people to be thought of as lesser than another.

Freedom of speech is not freedom of criticism.

Always irritates me when stand up comedians complain about receiving criticism when they would obviously be defending such criticism if it were delivered in the format of a 15 minute stand up set, and targeted at someone other than themselves.

Oh come now, JBR. Let us stop this self-delusion, please; you're really suggesting that the 'agents' of political correctness don't ever (let alone often) manifest as shrieking, baying, 21st century equivalents of online lynch mobs; that people don't find themselves in hot water with HR departments or whatever over stuff like this? It's all some nicey-nicey collegiate type atmosphere, a rational 'take it or leave it' type discussion...? Pur-lease.

People may well be free to believe what they want, but they're sure as hell increasingly not free to say what they damn well want. That is both good and bad; we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Hearts and minds etc.

Quite.

Indeed.

Freedom FROM criticism, but yes. Because guess what? Criticising choice of language is also exercising free speech.

As I said above, of course you are free to say whatever you want, but it's genuinely insane to think you should be able to say whatever the hell you want and never ever suffer any consequences because of what you have said.

You are free to pretty much whatever you want (although of course legal mechanisms such is libel/slander/defamation laws exist, as do laws against inciting racial hatred), but beyond legal mechanisms like those, it is a massive double standard to want to be free to say whatever you want, but for other people to not have the freedom to respond or criticise what you have said.

Edit:

Aye that's what I meant, and I absolutely agree that criticising choice of language is a component of free speech, and people are free to ignore or pay attention to such criticism as they see fit. If they intend to hold public office it's probably a good idea to be sensitive to such criticism, unless you've built a reputation on being insensitive, as the likes of Donald Trump and Boris Johnson have.

Which, of course, is not what I said at all.
Unsurprisingly.

Protip: At least take the time to properly understand and empathise with what your opponent is saying in a debate, rather than just trot out the usual tiresome, boilerplate crap about my or anyone else wanting a complete free-for-all whereby people can just say whatever they damn well like with no consequences. It's the same old chestnut that comes up EVERY time. Sigh.

21st century equivalents of online lynch mobs happen from the left and right, on all sorts of topics. I'm not sure what that has to do with the real world where issues like this actually happen.

We can go back to an old discussion. If someone was called a 'nigger' in the 1960s in an office and complained to HR, nothing would have been done. Today the offending person would be fired (and with good reason). If you think that's a good thing (and I'm sure you do), you'll understand that this change in perception of what's offensive or acceptable changes over time, and is continuing to do so right now. If you think that the above is unacceptable but can't see an issue with the connotations of master/slave, then I don't know what to say apart from the fact you are being left behind in the world.


Except they can and do. People say more of what they want all the time more than ever thanks to the internet! It's just that they can just as easily be criticised for it. See Lewie's point about freedom of speech not being freedom from criticism (because that is also free speech). Unless you are saying that some people's free speech (ie the ones you agree with) are more important than others?

So how are people not free to say what they want? You seemed to suggest that "shrieking, baying, 21st century equivalents of online lynch mobs" prevent people from having freedom of speech.

I think you are incorrect. Do you not think that the individuals who make up the "lynch mobs" you refer to should be free to voice their opinions?

I've already covered this aspect, Myp, when I said that the ROOTS of Political Correctness were indeed perfectly laudable and well-intentioned, and indeed achieved great things. The risk, however, is that the pendulum could swing too much the other way - or more accurately, the whole process brought into disrepute by frivolous, over-zealous and stupid examples which constitute "political correctness" as opposed to "[evolving] decent standards of behaviour and manners" (subjective terms with blurred demarcation lines, granted)

Too much of a good thing often becomes a bad thing, and (IMO) this is no exception.



You're conflating the literal, physical ability of people to say more stuff, more often, on more platforms (e.g. through the internet, social media), with the ever increasing likelihood of their being criticised and/or pilloried for so doing.

So you are asking not for freedom of speech, but freedom from criticism? Which is absolutely irrational in my view.

Time for work.

So where do you personally draw the line. When does it go 'too far'?

Are the examples you cite things you've read in newspapers or online, or genuine issues you've had to confront in your daily life? Because if it's the former, they are in the news for a reason: they are incredibly rare.

I would be interested in hearing what you think the difference is between acceptable criticism that doesn't undermine freedom of speech, and unacceptable criticism which fundamentally removes someone's freedom to say whatever they want.

Because if the only difference is whether you agree with the criticism, or whether or not the criticism results in personal consequence for the individual on the receiving end, I'd say your argument is not sound.

But if you'd prefer to just do a condescending roll eye and walk away, that's OK too. Sorry if you feel me expressing a different opinion to you has inhibited your ability to exercise your freedom of speech.

So yeah, anyway, Political Correctness is definitely A Thing, as this thread ably demonstrates, and it's not just confined to, nor can it be passed off as mere 'politeness' or whatever. It is vastly more divisive as the preceding couple of pages amply show. Of course, we can all argue about where exactly the line is drawn, but just as most people would abhor the use of terms like "n****r", "c**n", "poof" (and we have the pre-cursor of Political Correctness to thank for that, as I've said multiple times), most people would also see the prohibition of the TECHNICAL term "master" and "slave" HARD DRIVES as being batshit insane and wholly stupid and unjustified, as per our specimen example. There are no doubt many others. (Incidentally, "primary" and "secondary" don't even have the same meanings anyway, so are inferior - "secondary" could simply mean 'smaller than', whereas "slave" means actually controlled by, and/or subsumed by - very different things. If I walk into a garage and ask for a new "primary cylinder" for my brakes, I'll be getting blank looks). None of this changes the fact that it is real and it exists, though - which is all *I* was saying in the first place.

To be really blunt if I may please, people are just too easily offended, especially en masse. They seem to absolutely delight in it much of the time, and you know really, I've got no time for that at all. Man the fuck up, I say.

Sexist.

Well, you know me Jem.

Let's agree to disagree then, eh?

But of course, I wasn't seriously thinking I'd win you over by my titanic debating powers.
I've said my piece, you've said yours; we neither of us are coming from any dickish arguments over it, and neither of us wants nor is suggesting going back to the bad old days of the 80s or whatever. It's been an interesting joust too; it's all good. To the bar then, yeah?

Aye, go on then. First round's on you.

Hazzah. My round, my choice..... we're going in hard with Staropramen and Jajerbombs. (I'm sure Curio will be joining us for the latter )

I'll drink anything if someone else is doing the buying....

The drinks just got upgraded to a Taittinger NV Rose in ice bucket, with crystal flutes. Oh yeah, that's how we roll.

/Cavey switches to 'ladies mode'

I was aware of the racism in the 80s and 90s, seeing it first hand, and on the news and so on, but I was sure that by the time I was a grown up it would all be sorted. I went to an inner city school in London where there was a real mix of races. And looking around at my close friends growing up, their parents were from many different backgrounds and nationalities:

Portuguese + English
Indian + English
English + English
Egyptian + English
Nigerian + Nigerian
Sudanese + Sudanese
Chinese + Chinese
Malaysian + Malaysian
Irish + English
Welsh + Welsh
Scottish + English


In my naive youthfulness I assumed that as my friends were so diverse, that racism and so on would mostly end with my generation, of course there would be a few stragglers, but I thought that my Children, or perhaps my grand children wouldn't have to worry about that at all, but it seems like it's just as prevalent now as what it was 20 years ago.

You grew up in London, the world's most incredible multicultural melting pot. Elsewhere is different

I think Malc was alluding to exactly that shattering of illusion.

I grew up in Brent, (which I think Malc may have also lived in/near at some point) and that's the most melty of all the melting pots. I did see racism, among various groups, one minority to another, so I didn't think we'd shake racism in our generation. I had a lot of racist* remarks made to me by (mostly) one ethnic group in particular over the course of my teenage years, but with all that it was still a shock to find out how almost backwards in time some of the views have been when I later moved to other places in the country.

*I have seen people say that white people can't be the victims of racism, but if you are on the street and threaten to group rape me and call me a slut on the basis of my race, you're a racist, and anyone who tells me that you aren't can get to flip.

How about another example? This one is related to gaming!

Oh, there's a better example of that.

I should move to Scunthorpe.

From what I have seen There is very little racism in Devon (where it's something like 99.9% white). I really don't think if I move back to London my world view will change all that much. There are racists in London too

You've automatically contradicted yourself. You see no racism, specifically because it's 99.9% white. That's why so much of non-metropolitan England has awful views on immigration etc - because it's totally alien to their way of life. Not because they're bad people, just because it's a part of the UK they have totally no experience of.

I was surprised when moving away from London just how white some places were. One of the girls from my uni was from Norfolk, or somewhere near that way, and she cane with neocon a trip to London and we stayed at my grandparents, in Neasden, Borough of Brent, London. As we stepped off the already very racially diverse tube at Wembley Park and into the clamour of the street and bus, ringing with a hundred different languages, it would be enough to send the senses of a lot of people not used to that atmosphere whirling. Nikki just sat wide eyed until we reached the quiet of my grandparents, then she almost gasped and said she'd only ever seen two non-White people before, memories that stuck out really strongly for her... She had never even imagined there could be so many peoples of different races, so many languages, all in one place. It was kind of amazing to see her reaction, and really sweet, actually. She had lots of questions about how people got on, language barriers, etc.

Can't remember where I was going with this, but it was quite nice.

Another 3 suspended...

Labour is a disaster. Private Eye was reporting that Milne wanted back into the grauniad, too.

"Labour is a disaster"

Yes. Yes, they are.
Thing is though Mali, they've *always* been a disaster, in all respects too. Well, for at least as long as I've been alive at any rate; I can't speak for the early 20th Century Cooperative Movement.

The hour grows very late, but welcome to the party. I think there's a dusty sausage roll left somewhere...

And yet the Tories not only condone racism and Islamophobia, but promote it and use it as a top campaign tool.

Weird that racism is only bad when done by the Left.