Rodafowa wrote:
flis wrote:
I just watch some of it and think "Wow, whoever wrote this had real issues." They only seem to do it doggy style, whether they're simulating rape or 'love making' and it's all quite demeaning and there doesn't seem to be any actual need for the constantly aggressive nature of the sex scenes.
Yeah, it's definitely going for a Deadwood-esque commentary on how sex and sexuality are used to oppress women, but unlike Deadwood it's trying to have its cake and eat it by making the sex scenes titilating for the viewer (as well as repeatedly using sexy-sexy time to EXPOSITION DUMP all over the screen).
My issue with the Dothraki isn't the characters or the obvious Ghengis Khan parallel (blimey, if I had a problem with thinly-veiled metaphor or parallel I wouldn't last long in the fantasy/sci-fi genre!), it's the fact that it's the only place you're seeing non-white characters in the series and they're playing straight to the trope of non-Western people as savages who're "Closer To The Land" than people in more "civilised" cultures. It's tired and cliché and mildly offensive.
It's exactly what happened in the book though. As malc has pointed out, the Seven Kingdoms is Europe, and the stuff over the Shining Sea or whatever it is is the Middle and Far East. The Dothraki are, and are supposed to be, Mongol-esque. It's all party of Dinarys's character development later on - driven by the contrast between her and her whiney brother's regal background and the culture of the big bad horse botherer she ends up getting given to. A culture which she ends up buying into, and then
ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
In the book you see the Dothraki's interactions with the other pseudo-Arab civilisations over there, most of which are vastly, vastly more advanced than the Kingdoms. And all of whom are looked down on (and pounded on) by the Dothraki. I presume they haven't got round to them yet.
The Seven Kingdoms are viewed by most other civilisations as being a bit backwards, although that obviously hasn't become clear as yet in the telly version. But in any case, the individuals within it who are the main characters of the books (and presumably the telly series) are largely execrable, and when there's a
ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
I really don't see where the offense can come from here, unless you're looking for it very hard.
Malc wrote:
If you liken the 7 kingdoms to Europe, then it makes sense no?
They wouldn't have been many non whites in Europe in the Medieval Times!
They wouldn't have been many non whites in Europe in the Medieval Times!
1) It's not medieval Europe, it's a fantasy story.
2) I understand both what the real-world inspiration for the Dothraki is and what their thematic purpose in the story seems to be. But if the only place you're seeing people who aren't white is as part of the group who're are representing the wild, untamed cultural id that, to me, is both a little icky and a lot of a cliché.
The net result is that in this series we're only being shown people who aren't white as hootin' hollerin' unruly savages with natural rhythm who can only be kept in line by force, whose gatherings look like a cheap strip club and if given the chance would come over here and rape all our women. I don't want to make it sound more serious than it is, or like it's some sort of premeditated hate crime that's being carried out to Keep Darkie Down but it does impact my enjoyment of the series to a degree and I think it's worthy of comment.
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
It's exactly what happened in the book though. I really don't see where the offense can come from here, unless you're looking for it very hard.
Honestly, I don't really care what happens in the book. I'm judging what I've seen, as would the vast majority of the people watching.
I don't see how you can't see why it's a bit offensive, unless you're trying very hard not to understand.
Rodafowa wrote:
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
It's exactly what happened in the book though. I really don't see where the offense can come from here, unless you're looking for it very hard.
Honestly, I don't really care what happens in the book. I'm judging what I've seen, as would the vast majority of the people watching.
I don't see how you can't see why it's a bit offensive, unless you're trying very hard not to understand.
No, I can't see why it's offensive. TV adaptation is done of a book. Adaptation leaves out, due to the exigencies of the medium, some bits of the book. End result is that a dark-skinned culture rides around on horses, generally being scary and awesome, but other dark-skinned cultures aren't (as yet) part of the TV series. If that dark-skinned culture (and the culture is bloody intrinsic to later plot developments) had been changed, as Doc G has suggested, not only would fans of the books be spitting blood, you'd have cocked up the plot.
You really do have to want that to be offensive. Particularly as the one white-skinned culture portrayed is largely populated by ghastly cunts. Just wait until the white-skinned islander culture comes into it - they make the Dothraki look like tea-sipping ladies what lunch.
Rodafowa wrote:
Malc wrote:
If you liken the 7 kingdoms to Europe, then it makes sense no?
They wouldn't have been many non whites in Europe in the Medieval Times!
They wouldn't have been many non whites in Europe in the Medieval Times!
1) It's not medieval Europe, it's a fantasy story.
2) I understand both what the real-world inspiration for the Dothraki is and what their thematic purpose in the story seems to be. But if the only place you're seeing people who aren't white is as part of the group who're are representing the wild, untamed cultural id that, to me, is both a little icky and a lot of a cliché.
But it's based on Medieval Northern Europe...
Malc
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
No, I can't see why it's offensive.
I've explained it in really small words, chap. But we've been down this road often enough to know that there's probably no benefit for either of us in belabouring this point any further. So, agree to disagree or whatever.
Rodafowa wrote:
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
No, I can't see why it's offensive.
I've explained it in really small words, chap.
Weeeeelll, no. In all fairness what you've done is just repeat "this is offensive" in progressively more patronising (or just exasperated
) terms but yeah, agree to disagree. Quote:
But we've been down this road often enough to know that there's probably no benefit for either of us in belabouring this point any further. So, agree to disagree or whatever.
Indeed.
Anyway - I'll be interested to watch this to see how they've dealt with the stuff Over There with the Taragyens in the absence of their original benefactor and his city.
I'm massively offended that the Wildling people are clearly meant to be Scottish.
Yay! I just found this streamed online. Score!
I think both the Dothraki and the naked womens are proper ace.
This sounds more and more like something I should avoid.
Right - just watched episode 1 with Mrs K. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. The actress they cast as Arya (my fave character other than Tyrion) is perfect.
I would not have cast Sean Bean as Ned, though, good as he is. As I was reading the books I had someone a bit more dignified and distinguished in mind. Perhaps Terence Stamp or Liam Neeson.
As an aside, as far as I could tell from Ep1, the Dothraki were Caucasians with tans, other than 4 people, and there were at least 2 ginger ones that I spotted. Therefore more of a culture than a race, obviously. So, y'know, wind your necks in.
I would not have cast Sean Bean as Ned, though, good as he is. As I was reading the books I had someone a bit more dignified and distinguished in mind. Perhaps Terence Stamp or Liam Neeson.
As an aside, as far as I could tell from Ep1, the Dothraki were Caucasians with tans, other than 4 people, and there were at least 2 ginger ones that I spotted. Therefore more of a culture than a race, obviously. So, y'know, wind your necks in.
Halfway through episode 2. Tyrion is perfect. PERFECT.
It's been niggling, but I've realised Catelyn should be better looking. She looks how I'd imagined Bree of Tarth looked like. All well sexist and that, but there we are.
It's been niggling, but I've realised Catelyn should be better looking. She looks how I'd imagined Bree of Tarth looked like. All well sexist and that, but there we are.
So Bronn is played by no other than.....
Jerome of Robson and Jerome fame.
Well fuck me.
(Poss spoilers: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Jerome_Flynn)
Jerome of Robson and Jerome fame.
Well fuck me.
(Poss spoilers: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Jerome_Flynn)
Didn't someone put that a few pages back? I went back and looked but can't find it.
If I didn't read it here, then where _did_ I read it?!?
If I didn't read it here, then where _did_ I read it?!?
I mentioned it! I did stick it in a spoiler tag though (because I was identifying his character by a plot point he was participating in).
He had the best line in the episode this week, too.
In other this week news:
He had the best line in the episode this week, too.
In other this week news:
ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
Rodafowa wrote:
I mentioned it! I did stick it in a spoiler tag though (because I was identifying his character by a plot point he was participating in).
He had the best line in the episode this week, too.
In other this week news:
He had the best line in the episode this week, too.
In other this week news:
ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
Does he actually die? I reckon he wins, or at least escapes. (ps: Not read the books)
Pod wrote:
Rodafowa wrote:
I mentioned it! I did stick it in a spoiler tag though (because I was identifying his character by a plot point he was participating in).
He had the best line in the episode this week, too.
In other this week news:
He had the best line in the episode this week, too.
In other this week news:
ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
Does he actually die? I reckon he wins, or at least escapes. (ps: Not read the books)
ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
What time span do the six (6?) books cover? If it's longer than a few years, I wonder if the TV show will compress it (to work around the youngish actors not getting older quickly enough).
Pod wrote:
Does he actually die? I reckon he wins, or at least escapes. (ps: Not read the books)
STOP GETTING MY HOPES UP YOU MONSTER.
Trooper wrote:
GRRM has written the next episode I believe
ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
Has this happened yet?!!! (The diversion, not the GRRM written episode).
Also:
I want to belive this guy is still alive. ps: There's probably spoilers at that link. I don't know.
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
What time span do the six (6?) books cover? If it's longer than a few years, I wonder if the TV show will compress it (to work around the youngish actors not getting older quickly enough).
Christ, really short, actually - maybe two years to the end of book 4 part 2?
Will be watching ep 9 when Mrs K gets home from the pub. Squeeeee!
Arya's Braavosi instructor is one of my favourite characters in all the books. After Arya and Tyrion, obv. And Sam - Sam is brilliant in the books (really good, well drawn, strong, believable character) and looks to be getting that way in the series.
And yes, Sansa is that fucking dim. She gets dimmer, too.
I'm meant to be watching it at the moment, but had to wait until MrsA came home. Who now wants to talk about courgette plants.
Just watched it, best. episode. ever.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN "I WANT TO WATCH GLEE NOW?" YOU HAVE CAR INSURANCE TO SORT OUT WOMAN!
MaliA wrote:
WHAT DO YOU MEAN "I WANT TO WATCH GLEE NOW?" YOU HAVE CAR INSURANCE TO SORT OUT WOMAN!
Said MrsA.
yeh i lost out to the Glee season finale also 
will watch the episode soon
will watch the episode soon http://one-tvshows.eu/tv/links/show/gam ... /9/baelor/ for them as has no Sky plus.
just watched the first episode of this. It is quite good.
Good episode. Will each again tomorrow afternoon when I can pay proper attention.
ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
but by reading the books 
Edited: Spoilered
ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
I really hope that isnt a spoiler
Edited: Spoilered
Ramsea wrote:
ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
I really hope that isnt a spoiler
It's your fault for not watching the 9th episode yet.
Or even the 8th and 7th if you're that far behind. I shall SPOILERISE my post to prevent others like you and I from weeping. Hopefully you could sopilerise the quote of my previously unedited post!
Edited: Spoilered
Spoiler for ep9:
ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
Of course,
ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
"Robson And" Jerome Flynn is rapidly becoming one of my favourite things about this series. More of his laconic, understated badassery, please.
Craster wrote:
Of course,
ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
Well, that was a VERY understated finale.
Just watched all ten episodes of this in the last few days.
Oooooh, it's rather good. Really well cast. There are very few people that don't fit my memory of their characters from the books. I was a bit unsure about Jon Snow for a while, but he's kinda won me over.
WANT MORE NOW!
Season 2 is coming in the Spring, which will be Book Two (and good luck compressing that down to 10 episodes).
I've heard that Book 3 will be split into Season 3 and Season 4, which means if they ever wanted to actually film all of the books it'd take about ten years. There also seemed to be a fatalism to the interviews I saw, in that they don't actually think they'll get to the end. Which is potentially very annoying.
Oooooh, it's rather good. Really well cast. There are very few people that don't fit my memory of their characters from the books. I was a bit unsure about Jon Snow for a while, but he's kinda won me over.
WANT MORE NOW!
Season 2 is coming in the Spring, which will be Book Two (and good luck compressing that down to 10 episodes).
I've heard that Book 3 will be split into Season 3 and Season 4, which means if they ever wanted to actually film all of the books it'd take about ten years. There also seemed to be a fatalism to the interviews I saw, in that they don't actually think they'll get to the end. Which is potentially very annoying.
Curiosity wrote:
There also seemed to be a fatalism to the interviews I saw, in that they don't actually think they'll get to the end. Which is potentially very annoying.
I don't think that the books will actually ever get to the end...
Curiosity wrote:
I've heard that Book 3 will be split into Season 3 and Season 4, which means if they ever wanted to actually film all of the books it'd take about ten years.
I could live with that.
The other thing that made me laugh about this series was that Tyrion Lannister was clearly basing his accent on Victor Meldrew.
I'm almost at the end of Book Four now. Quality really has decreased with quantity, it seems to be gearing more towards teenage boys now ("let's make a character have lesbian sex, even though she's been totally not interested in it at all, ever, up to this point" OR "we'll stick in descriptions of torture here, and then back to lesbian sex"). The sex scenes are terribly written, too. I only really give a shit about two or three characters, and the whole thing needs trimming down. Lots. It's in dire need of a good editor, and fewer characters, as it's giving the sense of spinning it all out for another instalment, which will have even worse writing, more lesbians and more torture. Book Four has been pretty aimless and plods along, focussing on characters with no real redeeming features, and I hope they all die soon, so I no longer have to read about Brienne and her small tits, as they might as well have called her that. The best bits are about the Wall, but even then he had to shoehorn sex scenes into it. And, it appears that people keep dying and then they aren't dead at all, just pretending to be dead and it gets stupidly confusing.
The characters with interesting stuff to do are Jon Snow, Robb Stark, Eddard Stark Arya Stark, Jaime Lannister and Tyrion Lannister and Daenerys Targaryen. All of the others are really just padding, like magnolia painted walls or really dull scenery.
So, all in all, I'd give the series so far a 4/10 and three of those marks are for book one.
The characters with interesting stuff to do are Jon Snow, Robb Stark, Eddard Stark Arya Stark, Jaime Lannister and Tyrion Lannister and Daenerys Targaryen. All of the others are really just padding, like magnolia painted walls or really dull scenery.
So, all in all, I'd give the series so far a 4/10 and three of those marks are for book one.
Series 2 of the telly is, according to imdb, being aired on 15th April 2012
TV adaptations are often better. The Dexter books after the first one are fucking appalling.
By Dance With Dragons they'll be so many characters that you don't give a fuck about that getting to one you DO care about is a suprising joy.
Pod wrote:
By Dance With Dragons they'll be so many characters that you don't give a fuck about that getting to one you DO care about is a suprising joy.
25 characters by the end of the fifth book, says wikipedia. It's too many, and 80% of those are dullards.
