I reckon they should just sack it off completely and just have purely automated goal line tech (to see if the ball crossed the line) and two linesmen per half for important games. Taking the responsibility away from the ref means they lose the respect of the players and then you get the ludicrous scenes of players making the the VAR box without even engaging with the ref.
I've *never* seen a ref change his mind until this world cup.
I've *never* seen a ref change his mind until this world cup.
The problem is, there's no consistency in the rules. It should be a simple case of ball-hits-hand-equals-penalty.
DavPaz wrote:
The problem is, there's no consistency in the rules. It should be a simple case of ball-hits-hand-equals-penalty.
I don't agree with that. The penalty last night was a pretty clear case in my opinion where the player obviously didn't intend to hit the ball with his arm/hand, he was jumping in the air to get the ball on his head and the opposing player basically headed it down on to his arm.
That's what I'm (badly) getting at. Either they apply the rule universally that ball>hand>penalty or they don't. The lack of consistency is what's causing the aggro.
GazChap wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
The problem is, there's no consistency in the rules. It should be a simple case of ball-hits-hand-equals-penalty.
I don't agree with that. The penalty last night was a pretty clear case in my opinion where the player obviously didn't intend to hit the ball with his arm/hand, he was jumping in the air to get the ball on his head and the opposing player basically headed it down on to his arm.
Yeah, he had no chance to move that hand out of the way. However, there were two other shouts in previous games (I think the 2nd Iceland was one of them) where I thought it was harsh, but once they have given one, It's clear they are going to give them all if they are VARed.
I also think all incidents of a ball hitting a hand should be given as hand ball. I mean they don't not award a goal kick instead of a corner if a the striker kicks the ball against the defender and it goes out behind the goal line do they?
Malc wrote:
I also think all incidents of a ball hitting a hand should be given as hand ball.
I think if that was the case, you'd end up with players trying to play the ball against their opponents' hands all the time in the penalty area.
Malc wrote:
I also think all incidents of a ball hitting a hand should be given as hand ball. I mean they don't not award a goal kick instead of a corner if a the striker kicks the ball against the defender and it goes out behind the goal line do they?
Not sure that's a fair comparison. A goal kick isn't going to change the course of a game, whereas penalties almost always do.
DavPaz wrote:
That's what I'm (badly) getting at. Either they apply the rule universally that ball>hand>penalty or they don't. The lack of consistency is what's causing the aggro.
While a lack of consistency is the end result, it's not the cause. The rules are pretty clear, it's just shit refs. And I say this as someone that knows fuck all about football
FIFA Laws of the Game 2018/19 wrote:
Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm.
The following must be considered:
• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence
The goalkeeper has the same restrictions on handling the ball as any other player outside the penalty area. Inside their penalty area, the goalkeeper cannot be guilty of a handling offence incurring a direct free kick or any related sanction but can be guilty of handling offences that incur an indirect free kick.
The following must be considered:
• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence
The goalkeeper has the same restrictions on handling the ball as any other player outside the penalty area. Inside their penalty area, the goalkeeper cannot be guilty of a handling offence incurring a direct free kick or any related sanction but can be guilty of handling offences that incur an indirect free kick.
Even just the first bullet point there should have meant there was no way that penalty should be given.
Part of the problem with the hand ball decisions is due to VAR though, I think. Slowed down, it's easier to think that something is intentional, as you lose the appreciation for reaction time etc...
GazChap wrote:
Malc wrote:
I also think all incidents of a ball hitting a hand should be given as hand ball. I mean they don't not award a goal kick instead of a corner if a the striker kicks the ball against the defender and it goes out behind the goal line do they?
Not sure that's a fair comparison. A goal kick isn't going to change the course of a game, whereas penalties almost always do.
England have scored a fair few goals from corners though. if they were given as goal kicks instead, then it removes a goal scoring opportunity. I think Hockey has a similar rule, but with feet (ie you are not allowed to kick the ball). That game does not descend into people trying to to hit the ball against the opposition's feet! Going back to football, surely the outcome of most of those attempts is the other team gaining possession of the ball again, as they chest it down and start the counter attack.
GazChap wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
That's what I'm (badly) getting at. Either they apply the rule universally that ball>hand>penalty or they don't. The lack of consistency is what's causing the aggro.
While a lack of consistency is the end result, it's not the cause. The rules are pretty clear, it's just shit refs. And I say this as someone that knows fuck all about football
FIFA Laws of the Game 2018/19 wrote:
Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm.
The following must be considered:
• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence
The goalkeeper has the same restrictions on handling the ball as any other player outside the penalty area. Inside their penalty area, the goalkeeper cannot be guilty of a handling offence incurring a direct free kick or any related sanction but can be guilty of handling offences that incur an indirect free kick.
The following must be considered:
• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence
The goalkeeper has the same restrictions on handling the ball as any other player outside the penalty area. Inside their penalty area, the goalkeeper cannot be guilty of a handling offence incurring a direct free kick or any related sanction but can be guilty of handling offences that incur an indirect free kick.
Even just the first bullet point there should have meant there was no way that penalty should be given.
What if there's a clear deflection off a hand - by accident - that causes a shot to miss the goal?
Grim... wrote:
What if there's a clear deflection off a hand - by accident - that causes a shot to miss the goal?
Rules are pretty clear IMO - it states it has to be a deliberate act to count.
Then it’s not deliberate, is it. Tch. Beat to it.
Trooper wrote:
Part of the problem with the hand ball decisions is due to VAR though, I think. Slowed down, it's easier to think that something is intentional, as you lose the appreciation for reaction time etc...
Granted, but in this case slowing it down should have made it all the more obvious that the opposing player pretty much headed the ball down on to his arm.
GazChap wrote:
Grim... wrote:
What if there's a clear deflection off a hand - by accident - that causes a shot to miss the goal?
Rules are pretty clear IMO - it states it has to be a deliberate act to count.
Though the refs will take into account ‘unnatural body position’ - if you jump with your hands out and prevent a goal that way, it’ll be a penalty (and possibly also a red card).
The only sensible solution is for all players (apart from goalies) to keep their hands in their pockets unless they do a throw in. They may also remove one hand to congratulate a team member who has scored (quick but firm handshake no longer than 3 seconds).
All players to be wearing straight jackets to avoid temptation
DavPaz wrote:
All players to be wearing straight jackets to avoid temptation
I mean, I would definitely watch this.
That would be amazing.
Not as amazing as Tazerball but, close.
Not as amazing as Tazerball but, close.
Curiosity wrote:
GazChap wrote:
Grim... wrote:
What if there's a clear deflection off a hand - by accident - that causes a shot to miss the goal?
Rules are pretty clear IMO - it states it has to be a deliberate act to count.
Though the refs will take into account ‘unnatural body position’ - if you jump with your hands out and prevent a goal that way, it’ll be a penalty (and possibly also a red card).
Well yep, that would fall under the "taking into account the movement of the hand towards the ball" angle.
GazChap wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
GazChap wrote:
Grim... wrote:
What if there's a clear deflection off a hand - by accident - that causes a shot to miss the goal?
Rules are pretty clear IMO - it states it has to be a deliberate act to count.
Though the refs will take into account ‘unnatural body position’ - if you jump with your hands out and prevent a goal that way, it’ll be a penalty (and possibly also a red card).
Well yep, that would fall under the "taking into account the movement of the hand towards the ball" angle.
Well, no. You can be motionless, but if you are standing with your arms out wide, you’re going to get called.
Curiosity wrote:
Well, no. You can be motionless, but if you are standing with your arms out wide, you’re going to get called.
The way I read it is that if someone kicks the ball at your hands when you're stood in such a position (and you don't move your hand into the path of the ball) then, according to the rules, that would not be a hand ball (might count as something else, like obstruction or something though?)
Presumably this has never happened though, as it's football and not bar billiards
GazChap wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
Well, no. You can be motionless, but if you are standing with your arms out wide, you’re going to get called.
The way I read it is that if someone kicks the ball at your hands when you're stood in such a position (and you don't move your hand into the path of the ball) then, according to the rules, that would not be a hand ball (might count as something else, like obstruction or something though?)
Presumably this has never happened though, as it's football and not bar billiards
Nah. It would be handball. It’s what the last part of the rule (position of the hands/arms) is referring to.
Like if you jump up in the air and flap your arms around, and someone then hits a shot into them, it’s handball even if you were moving away from the ball or couldn’t even see the ball, because your hands/arms had no right to be there.
Sensible VAR review in the Argentina Nigeria game. Very much ball to hand
Curiosity wrote:
Like if you jump up in the air and flap your arms around, and someone then hits a shot into them, it’s handball even if you were moving away from the ball or couldn’t even see the ball, because your hands/arms had no right to be there.
Right, I see what you mean. I'd agree that should be handball even if the rules as written don't really account for that situation.
Guess it comes down to intent, dunnit? Doing something unnatural with your arms (title) is by definition deliberate, I suppose.
Bah. This is why I don't know anything about football
Germany have 10 minutes to score, or they are out of the world cup, not even getting past the group stage.
This world cup is crazy
This world cup is crazy
Brazil could be out tonight too!
Anyone see that Korean get a ball in the nuts? Ouch.
Satsuma wrote:
Anyone see that Korean get a ball in the nuts? Ouch.
Yeah, he was down for ages!
Germany might need 2 goals in 3 minutes...
Korea 2 goals!!! Fucking brilliant match.
They now need 3 goals in 5 seconds...
All the guys around me at work are super excited about this.
Do you work for Samsung or something?
There's a German word for what I'm feeling right now: schadenfreude.
Scenes.
Just saw a tweet listing the years of World Cups in which England and Germany both participated, but England played more matches:
2018
Just saw a tweet listing the years of World Cups in which England and Germany both participated, but England played more matches:
2018
Was it South Korea playing Germany? I have no interest in football but did end up with SK in a sweepstake, so..
Curiosity wrote:
Scenes.
Just saw a tweet listing the years of World Cups in which England and Germany both participated, but England played more matches:
2018
Just saw a tweet listing the years of World Cups in which England and Germany both participated, but England played more matches:
2018
Technically not yet true, is it?
Jem wrote:
Was it South Korea playing Germany? I have no interest in football but did end up with SK in a sweepstake, so..
It was, however both sk and Germany are both out now.
Idiots now even more sure that 'dis is Englund's yer'.
https://twitter.com/proxcey/status/1012 ... 08517?s=21
Ball in nuts.
Best I could find. But I didn’t look very far.
Someone will probably create a great Simpsons gif.
Ball in nuts.
Best I could find. But I didn’t look very far.
Someone will probably create a great Simpsons gif.
Cras wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
Scenes.
Just saw a tweet listing the years of World Cups in which England and Germany both participated, but England played more matches:
2018
Just saw a tweet listing the years of World Cups in which England and Germany both participated, but England played more matches:
2018
Technically not yet true, is it?
Correct. We could feasibly get disqualified yet.
Curiosity wrote:
Cras wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
Scenes.
Just saw a tweet listing the years of World Cups in which England and Germany both participated, but England played more matches:
2018
Just saw a tweet listing the years of World Cups in which England and Germany both participated, but England played more matches:
2018
Technically not yet true, is it?
Correct. We could feasibly get disqualified yet.
Right now it's outright wrong.
Trooper wrote:
Jem wrote:
Was it South Korea playing Germany? I have no interest in football but did end up with SK in a sweepstake, so..
It was, however both sk and Germany are both out now.
Oh
Grim... wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
Cras wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
Scenes.
Just saw a tweet listing the years of World Cups in which England and Germany both participated, but England played more matches:
2018
Just saw a tweet listing the years of World Cups in which England and Germany both participated, but England played more matches:
2018
Technically not yet true, is it?
Correct. We could feasibly get disqualified yet.
Right now it's outright wrong.
Just you wait...
If Belgium win the group, I get my £3 sweepstake money back
What a day, 2 great games, Argentina and Portugal out, some amazing goals.
France look very dangerous.
France look very dangerous.
Trooper wrote:
What a day, 2 great games, Argentina and Portugal out, some amazing goals.
France look very dangerous.
France look very dangerous.
Both were very good games. Good to see the two one-man teams go out - Portugal and Argentina are pretty ordinary without Ronaldo and Messi.
France looked very good, although they nearly paid the price for not punishing Argentina when 4-2 up. They had a couple of chances to break and just held back instead.
Uruguay look hard to beat but I hope they don't progress too far - Suarez's play acting and playing for fouls all the time is very tiresome.
