I think this deserves its own thread. Mods: thread split the recent posts from the Movies thread?
Anyway: What if the new Star Wars movie sucks too?
I never thought of Jedi that way, but now that I've read that I can't produce any counter arguments either.
Anyway: What if the new Star Wars movie sucks too?
Quote:
Here is the problem. Most of the Star Wars movies are not good, but bad. Betting on this one to be good—to be the best movie of all time—is betting against the trend. The overall mean grade of the six existing Star Wars films is, like, a D.
Of those six, two (the original Star Wars, plus The Empire Strikes Back) are unqualified classics. Three others (the prequels) are among the worst films ever to receive wide theatrical release. That brings us to the sixth, Return of the Jedi, the one nearest to The Force Awakens in the narrative chronology. I am very sorry to say that Return of the Jedi is butt.
...
With that in mind, let’s return to the scene from Return of the Jedi, in which a completely unafraid Luke Skywalker kicks skin-crawling televangelist game—I feel the conflict within you! Let go of your hate! Don’t you have somethin’ you wanna say to Jesus? Somethin’ you wanna ask Him for?—at the giant evil cyborg who chopped his hand off the last time they were in each others’ presence. Who is this soggy piece of shit wearing Darth fucking Vader’s clothes? Who is this whiny, slumping sad-sack, mewling about how he must obey his master?
This is neither the absolute cruelty nor the equally frightening true-believer zeal of the Darth Vader we knew. This is the angsty, vapid, self-pitying emo shit-for-brains we’d later come to know in the prequels—the pathetic, un-frightening goomba henchman who for all intents and purposes gets pranked into becoming a villain in the first place. This is not the bad motherfucker who gleefully slices his own kid’s extremities off and then owns him all the way to attempted suicide; whose flair for cruel showmanship led to the memorable scene of him having Han and Leia delivered to him at a dinner table. This is a defeated, excuse-making heap of garbage.
I’d want Luke to give this cybernetic Robert Smith a wedgie, but where the fuck is Luke? Gone is the sweaty, athletic, ballsy young insurgent of Empire, replaced by this neutered megachurch-pastor bag of crap. The hammy, cackling Emperor is the only motherfucker in this Force-sensitive triad who has any spunk, any zest for life. I wish he’d Force-lightninged both of these impostors to hell.
This one scene completely ruins the climactic clash between Luke, Vader, and the Emperor—what’s supposed to be the crux and emotional peak of the entire epic trilogy. Vader, one of the great terrors in film history, isn’t frightening anymore; he’s already all but explicitly told us he doesn’t like his job and doesn’t want to do it. He’s just a big weak-willed bodyguard acting out of a sense of duty. My God, he’s already Hayden Christensen’s Vader.
...
Return of the Jedi is not good. C’mon. You’ll feel better when you just put it out there and name it. And the ways Return of the Jedi sucks are the ways the prequels suck: The prequels are not a betrayal, but a coherent expression of where the original trilogy was headed in 1983. It was already sprouting cutesy sidekicks and miserable plotting; the Jedi were already shifting from wise warrior monks to bland New-Age self-help gurus; it had already ruined Darth Vader.
Once you acknowledge these undeniable truths—you can do it!—the next step is recognizing that mostly, the Star Wars universe has given us movies that are bad. The prequels are not the aberrations. Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back are.
Maybe The Force Awakens will be great! I sure as fuck hope so. J.J. Abrams is at the controls, and his crack at the Star Trek franchise yielded one terrific film followed by a frustrating misfire. If that 50-percent success rate doesn’t look all that much like a reason to feel confident, it’s a hell of a lot better than the 33-percent Star Wars is batting so far. That’s Naked Gun territory, for chrissakes.
Two great movies, one mediocre one, and three of the worst major motion pictures ever made. The odds are against The Force Awakens. Minimum bet is the cost of one movie ticket, and I kinda feel like a sucker already. But I’ve already bought two.
Of those six, two (the original Star Wars, plus The Empire Strikes Back) are unqualified classics. Three others (the prequels) are among the worst films ever to receive wide theatrical release. That brings us to the sixth, Return of the Jedi, the one nearest to The Force Awakens in the narrative chronology. I am very sorry to say that Return of the Jedi is butt.
...
With that in mind, let’s return to the scene from Return of the Jedi, in which a completely unafraid Luke Skywalker kicks skin-crawling televangelist game—I feel the conflict within you! Let go of your hate! Don’t you have somethin’ you wanna say to Jesus? Somethin’ you wanna ask Him for?—at the giant evil cyborg who chopped his hand off the last time they were in each others’ presence. Who is this soggy piece of shit wearing Darth fucking Vader’s clothes? Who is this whiny, slumping sad-sack, mewling about how he must obey his master?
This is neither the absolute cruelty nor the equally frightening true-believer zeal of the Darth Vader we knew. This is the angsty, vapid, self-pitying emo shit-for-brains we’d later come to know in the prequels—the pathetic, un-frightening goomba henchman who for all intents and purposes gets pranked into becoming a villain in the first place. This is not the bad motherfucker who gleefully slices his own kid’s extremities off and then owns him all the way to attempted suicide; whose flair for cruel showmanship led to the memorable scene of him having Han and Leia delivered to him at a dinner table. This is a defeated, excuse-making heap of garbage.
I’d want Luke to give this cybernetic Robert Smith a wedgie, but where the fuck is Luke? Gone is the sweaty, athletic, ballsy young insurgent of Empire, replaced by this neutered megachurch-pastor bag of crap. The hammy, cackling Emperor is the only motherfucker in this Force-sensitive triad who has any spunk, any zest for life. I wish he’d Force-lightninged both of these impostors to hell.
This one scene completely ruins the climactic clash between Luke, Vader, and the Emperor—what’s supposed to be the crux and emotional peak of the entire epic trilogy. Vader, one of the great terrors in film history, isn’t frightening anymore; he’s already all but explicitly told us he doesn’t like his job and doesn’t want to do it. He’s just a big weak-willed bodyguard acting out of a sense of duty. My God, he’s already Hayden Christensen’s Vader.
...
Return of the Jedi is not good. C’mon. You’ll feel better when you just put it out there and name it. And the ways Return of the Jedi sucks are the ways the prequels suck: The prequels are not a betrayal, but a coherent expression of where the original trilogy was headed in 1983. It was already sprouting cutesy sidekicks and miserable plotting; the Jedi were already shifting from wise warrior monks to bland New-Age self-help gurus; it had already ruined Darth Vader.
Once you acknowledge these undeniable truths—you can do it!—the next step is recognizing that mostly, the Star Wars universe has given us movies that are bad. The prequels are not the aberrations. Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back are.
Maybe The Force Awakens will be great! I sure as fuck hope so. J.J. Abrams is at the controls, and his crack at the Star Trek franchise yielded one terrific film followed by a frustrating misfire. If that 50-percent success rate doesn’t look all that much like a reason to feel confident, it’s a hell of a lot better than the 33-percent Star Wars is batting so far. That’s Naked Gun territory, for chrissakes.
Two great movies, one mediocre one, and three of the worst major motion pictures ever made. The odds are against The Force Awakens. Minimum bet is the cost of one movie ticket, and I kinda feel like a sucker already. But I’ve already bought two.
I never thought of Jedi that way, but now that I've read that I can't produce any counter arguments either.
No, he's wrong about RotJ. Although the Ewoks were irritating, it was a great film. He's mistaking characters having more than one emotional driver for being "emo" and "new age self help gurus".
I also disagree that the prequels were unmitigated shit. They were sort of okayish, but they felt shit because they were a let down given what we might have been expecting.
I also disagree that the prequels were unmitigated shit. They were sort of okayish, but they felt shit because they were a let down given what we might have been expecting.
Can't argue with any of that.
I'm not sure what the point of all that is. Mostly he seems to be dropping the following bombshells, the prequels were a bit shit, Return Of The Jedi wasn't as good as the first two and nobody's seen this new one yet.
I'm not sure comparisons to the previous films are all that valuable either way given that the weakest link in, and biggest influence on, the entire endeavour has always been George Lucas; and he's now been taken out of the picture.
Bamba wrote:
I'm not sure comparisons to the previous films are all that valuable either way given that the weakest link in, and biggest influence on, the entire endeavour has always been George Lucas; and he's now been taken out of the picture.
Quite. A friend of mine said yesterday "Well, don't get excited about it, remember how disappointing it was that Indy 4 was cack", to which the response was, yes, well, that was Lucas wasn't it. Although I disagree it was cack, of course.
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
Bamba wrote:
I'm not sure comparisons to the previous films are all that valuable either way given that the weakest link in, and biggest influence on, the entire endeavour has always been George Lucas; and he's now been taken out of the picture.
Quite. A friend of mine said yesterday "Well, don't get excited about it, remember how disappointing it was that Indy 4 was cack", to which the response was, yes, well, that was Lucas wasn't it. Although I disagree it was cack, of course.
Don't get me wrong, it's still going to be awful and break your little heart, just not for the reasons everyone's saying.
Bamba wrote:
Don't get me wrong, it's still going to be awful and break your little heart, just not for the reasons everyone's saying.
So why do you think it will be awful?
In my opinion, things already start to go wrong in Empire. The moment that George Lucas decided that Darth Vader was Luke's father and then tried to make us believe that this had been the plan all along is where it all started to unravel.
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
Bamba wrote:
Don't get me wrong, it's still going to be awful and break your little heart, just not for the reasons everyone's saying.
So why do you think it will be awful?
It actually probably won't be, but the chances of it being 'amazing' are no more than for any other blockbuster film of recent years and Hollywood doesn't have the best track record here. I have no doubt it'll be at least competent but I would strongly advise not expecting any more than that as you'll be courting disappointment. The genuinely constructive comparisons that article does make is to JJ Abrams other adventures with an aged and much loved franchise (i.e. Star Trek) and although I enjoyed both of those films they couldn't really be described as amazing or anything. Also, with Star Wars, I'd be much more concerned of studio interfering (given that Disney will want to milk the shit out of this) and that rarely results in a cohesive narrative.
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
A friend of mine said yesterday "Well, don't get excited about it, remember how disappointing it was that Indy 4 was cack"... Although I disagree it was cack, of course.
WHAT?! Bamba wrote:
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
Bamba wrote:
Don't get me wrong, it's still going to be awful and break your little heart, just not for the reasons everyone's saying.
So why do you think it will be awful?
It actually probably won't be, but the chances of it being 'amazing' are no more than for any other blockbuster film of recent years and Hollywood doesn't have the best track record here. I have no doubt it'll be at least competent but I would strongly advise not expecting any more than that as you'll be courting disappointment. The genuinely constructive comparisons that article does make is to JJ Abrams other adventures with an aged and much loved franchise (i.e. Star Trek) and although I enjoyed both of those films they couldn't really be described as amazing or anything. Also, with Star Wars, I'd be much more concerned of studio interfering (given that Disney will want to milk the shit out of this) and that rarely results in a cohesive narrative.
I loved the new Star Trek, came out of the cinema feeling like I'd seen a big, magical space film. It's that feeling which is all this new Star Wars film needs to have, nothing can survive some picky, miserable, point-missing tosser tearing it apart scene by scene on the Internet. It's the sum of the parts not the parts themselves.
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
A friend of mine said yesterday "Well, don't get excited about it, remember how disappointing it was that Indy 4 was cack"... Although I disagree it was cack, of course.
WHAT?!I haven't got time to write at length on this now (I think it was TK-421 I bored to death at a Beexbeeque on this), but it was great. It was very much in the saturday morning pulp special mould of the original films.
markg wrote:
I loved the new Star Trek, came out of the cinema feeling like I'd seen a big, magical space film. It's that feeling which is all this new Star Wars film needs to have, nothing can survive some picky, miserable, point-missing tosser tearing it apart scene by scene on the Internet. It's the sum of the parts not the parts themselves.
I love you.
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
A friend of mine said yesterday "Well, don't get excited about it, remember how disappointing it was that Indy 4 was cack"... Although I disagree it was cack, of course.
WHAT?!<The only sound to be heard is a teacup rating on its saucer for several moments>
All repeat: WHAT?
Why can't we be allowed to look forward to anything anymore?
markg wrote:
I loved the new Star Trek, came out of the cinema feeling like I'd seen a big, magical space film.
Wait -- Star Trek, or Star Trek: Into Darkness? markg wrote:
I loved the new Star Trek, came out of the cinema feeling like I'd seen a big, magical space film. It's that feeling which is all this new Star Wars film needs to have, nothing can survive some picky, miserable, point-missing tosser tearing it apart scene by scene on the Internet. It's the sum of the parts not the parts themselves.
True to an extent but, similarly, excusing something that's badly put together and poorly plotted just because it's a "big, magical space film" isn't a brilliant position to hold either and that's something that tends to happen when it comes to Star Wars. A good film's a good film regardless of whether it's set on a variety of alien planets or a caravan park in Grimsby.
TheVision wrote:
Why can't we be allowed to look forward to anything anymore?
No one's stopping you doing anything, don't be a tit.
Bamba wrote:
markg wrote:
I loved the new Star Trek, came out of the cinema feeling like I'd seen a big, magical space film. It's that feeling which is all this new Star Wars film needs to have, nothing can survive some picky, miserable, point-missing tosser tearing it apart scene by scene on the Internet. It's the sum of the parts not the parts themselves.
True to an extent but, similarly, excusing something that's badly put together and poorly plotted just because it's a "big, magical space film" isn't a brilliant position to hold either and that's something that tends to happen when it comes to Star Wars. A good film's a good film regardless of whether it's set on a variety of alien planets or a caravan park in Grimsby.
Only if you think sci fi is a setting rather than a genre.
Bamba wrote:
markg wrote:
I loved the new Star Trek, came out of the cinema feeling like I'd seen a big, magical space film. It's that feeling which is all this new Star Wars film needs to have, nothing can survive some picky, miserable, point-missing tosser tearing it apart scene by scene on the Internet. It's the sum of the parts not the parts themselves.
True to an extent but, similarly, excusing something that's badly put together and poorly plotted just because it's a "big, magical space film"
If it's badly put together then it's not going to seem magical, as the prequels illustrate. Films can certainly have some quite big plot holes or other problems and still come out great, though. I think my point is that however good this film is overall there's going to be a huge body of opinion making "excellent points" about why it's actually shit.
Indy 4 would have been up there with the other movies, but there were some bloody stupid decisions that completely destroyed the film for me.
The most ironic of these, for me, is that for some reason I found the idea of the artefact being alien (and the associated stuff around it) so much more unbelievable than all of the God-related stuff in the other films, which amuses me as a staunch atheist.
I also can't stand Star Wars. I don't know why people find them so engaging. They might have been fucking awesome at the time, never before seen etc. but looking back on them they're crap.
The most ironic of these, for me, is that for some reason I found the idea of the artefact being alien (and the associated stuff around it) so much more unbelievable than all of the God-related stuff in the other films, which amuses me as a staunch atheist.
I also can't stand Star Wars. I don't know why people find them so engaging. They might have been fucking awesome at the time, never before seen etc. but looking back on them they're crap.
I enjoyed Indy 4 when I saw it at the Cinema. It was, as others have said, an enjoyable romp very much in the style of the things it was homage-ing (I can totally ing that word, right?). I also enjoyed Nu-Trek at the Cinema. Loud, brash, bold, fast paced exciting and colourful. Everything an action-scifi movie needs to be.
ALSO! I enjoyed all 3 Star Wars Prequels when watching on the Big Screen. Sitting there with my mates with sneaked-in beers and M&Ms seeing our first real new Star Wars Movie! It was exciting and I wasn't disappointed.
However. All of these movies I have subsequently re-watched on DVD or ("DVD" - Ed) and been underwhelmed, or just whelmed. I've seem the prequels maybe twice each. Indy 4 a couple of times and Star Trek... it didn't hold my interest at all the second time. Still haven't bothered to see Into Darkness.
So... what I'm saying is: I definitely want to see the new Star Wars movie in the Cinema as my primitive monkey/nerd brain could watch 3 hours of TheVision curating his spreadsheet as long as it's on a 100ft screen in 7.1 surround sound
ALSO! I enjoyed all 3 Star Wars Prequels when watching on the Big Screen. Sitting there with my mates with sneaked-in beers and M&Ms seeing our first real new Star Wars Movie! It was exciting and I wasn't disappointed.
However. All of these movies I have subsequently re-watched on DVD or ("DVD" - Ed) and been underwhelmed, or just whelmed. I've seem the prequels maybe twice each. Indy 4 a couple of times and Star Trek... it didn't hold my interest at all the second time. Still haven't bothered to see Into Darkness.
So... what I'm saying is: I definitely want to see the new Star Wars movie in the Cinema as my primitive monkey/nerd brain could watch 3 hours of TheVision curating his spreadsheet as long as it's on a 100ft screen in 7.1 surround sound
That can be arranged. I'm currently adding an Xbox one category to it so it's exciting stuff.
TheVision wrote:
That can be arranged. I'm currently adding an Xbox one category to it so it's exciting stuff.
markg wrote:
I think my point is that however good some people think this film is overall there's going to be other people that don't enjoy it because opinions.
Feex for really all we're saying now.
markg wrote:
I loved the new Star Trek, came out of the cinema feeling like I'd seen a big, magical space film. It's that feeling which is all this new Star Wars film needs to have, nothing can survive some picky, miserable, point-missing tosser tearing it apart scene by scene on the Internet. It's the sum of the parts not the parts themselves.
You're like me and Doctor Who.
My inner 8 year old, the one who saw Star Wars in the cinema on its release in 1977 would love to have that same feeling of excitement and pumped up elatedness I felt back then. However, the 46 year old guy writing this, who hasn't watched any of the original trilogy in, oooh, 20 years and when he did, thought they were all pretty crap, the minor exception being Empire, doesn't have any expectations. I might go and see it in the cinema if it gets good reviews.
Still, it'll have to be really fucking dire to surpass the legendary awfulness of the "prequels", well, the two I've seen, anyway
Still, it'll have to be really fucking dire to surpass the legendary awfulness of the "prequels", well, the two I've seen, anyway
It is almost as if the suspension of belief required for immersion in these films is a lot easier when you are a child than an adult. That a child can more readily overlook flaws, and probably miss them completely.
All films have flaws, all books have flaws, there is no medium available that completely convey the thoughts, sounds and images of the conceiver to the receiver. As such things are going to be misread, misconstrued or missed out completely.
The question comes down to how much the concept/item/information that has was mis* interferes with your individual perception and therefore your immersion into the events being depicted. Some people will look at a prop and see it as a Ikea chair sprayed silver and lose "a level" of immersion, some people will see a silver space chair and most won't really pay attention to it.
A well made film should minimise jarring aspects of all types to ease the viewer through the transition of realities and maximise the ease of immersion. Jarring great plot holes will not help that, and as such a film with plot holes could be called a bad film, but it just depends on how bad they are. A measure of which could be the number of people who point them out.
All films have flaws, all books have flaws, there is no medium available that completely convey the thoughts, sounds and images of the conceiver to the receiver. As such things are going to be misread, misconstrued or missed out completely.
The question comes down to how much the concept/item/information that has was mis* interferes with your individual perception and therefore your immersion into the events being depicted. Some people will look at a prop and see it as a Ikea chair sprayed silver and lose "a level" of immersion, some people will see a silver space chair and most won't really pay attention to it.
A well made film should minimise jarring aspects of all types to ease the viewer through the transition of realities and maximise the ease of immersion. Jarring great plot holes will not help that, and as such a film with plot holes could be called a bad film, but it just depends on how bad they are. A measure of which could be the number of people who point them out.
Bobbyaro wrote:
It is almost as if the suspension of belief required for immersion in these films is a lot easier when you are a child than an adult. That a child can more readily overlook flaws, and probably miss them completely.
I'll do any amount of suspension of disbelief to get into a film's starting position, and if I'm having fun I'll tolerate a good bit of bumpiness within the film. But when characters keep doing something inexplicable or inconsistent because the plot needs to get from A to B (I'm looking at you, Prometheus, and you, Star Trek: Into Darkness) then sooner or later it'll push me to the point where I think to myself "hey, but wait, that makes no sense because...". Once that happens, it's lost me. Exactly, but that perception is individual, you are a much more intelligent person than most people, and also much more than you were when you were as a child, therefore things that are inexplicable or inconsistent to you, may not be to others.
Of course, then you bring in personal interpretations of things.
Like how loads of people hated the romance between Padme and Anakin, saying that they were acting (badly) like annoying kids. Whereas I took it that the whole purpose was that they were meant to be annoying and you were supposed to be frustrated that these children were ruining everything.
Like how loads of people hated the romance between Padme and Anakin, saying that they were acting (badly) like annoying kids. Whereas I took it that the whole purpose was that they were meant to be annoying and you were supposed to be frustrated that these children were ruining everything.
The biggest problem with the prequels is that they are fucking boring. Esp. Attack of the Clones.
DBSnappa wrote:
My inner 8 year old, the one who saw Star Wars in the cinema on its release in 1977 would love to have that same feeling of excitement and pumped up elatedness I felt back then. However, the 46 year old guy writing this, who hasn't watched any of the original trilogy in, oooh, 20 years and when he did, thought they were all pretty crap, the minor exception being Empire, doesn't have any expectations. I might go and see it in the cinema if it gets good reviews.
Still, it'll have to be really fucking dire to surpass the legendary awfulness of the "prequels", well, the two I've seen, anyway
Still, it'll have to be really fucking dire to surpass the legendary awfulness of the "prequels", well, the two I've seen, anyway
Oh man, for me at least,
Amen to that.
Er, except I was 10.
Worth posting again — I'm assuming I've already posted this, the New Yorker review of Revenge of the Sith.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/05/23/space-case
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/05/23/space-case
Likewise posted before but the Plinkett reviews of the Star Wars prequels are absolutely essential (and very funny) viewing.
http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/
As for the new Star Wars film I'll certainly watch it at some point, although probably with my daughter as I suspect she'll get more out of it than I will.
I have a lot of fondness for the original trilogy (although Jedi was pretty pumpy), but the prequels were sheer awfulness. How on earth Lucas made Star Wars so boring I'll never quite fully understand.
http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/
As for the new Star Wars film I'll certainly watch it at some point, although probably with my daughter as I suspect she'll get more out of it than I will.
I have a lot of fondness for the original trilogy (although Jedi was pretty pumpy), but the prequels were sheer awfulness. How on earth Lucas made Star Wars so boring I'll never quite fully understand.
I've just stolen this off Twitter but someone has mocked up what the VHS case of the new Star Wars film would look like if it was released in the 70's.
OBJECTION! Videos didn't have ratings until 1984 (in the UK)
Good call! I'm going to put that on Twitter and impress everyone with my knowledge.
That is the downside of Disney owning these now, they have no shame when it comes to merchandise.
asfish wrote:
That is the downside of Disney owning these now, they have no shame when it comes to merchandise.
Because LucasFilm would previously never have released anything like that...
Fair play I stand corrected
Still not putting any SW lights on my tree this year!
Still not putting any SW lights on my tree this year!
Bamba wrote:
asfish wrote:
That is the downside of Disney owning these now, they have no shame when it comes to merchandise.
Because LucasFilm would previously never have released anything like that...
At least they look as though they're at least difficult to make, not just pictures of faces lazily sprayed on a bauble.
This is still going to be effing brilliant.
Saturnalian wrote:
http://www.theforceawakensblog.com/the-force-awakens-extended-trailer/
EXTENDED TRAILER!
LUKE!
BEARD!
ROUSING MUSIC!
EXTENDED TRAILER!
LUKE!
BEARD!
ROUSING MUSIC!
OMFG!
Although, can anyone hear what Luke actually says?
Cras wrote:
Saturnalian wrote:
http://www.theforceawakensblog.com/the-force-awakens-extended-trailer/
EXTENDED TRAILER!
LUKE!
BEARD!
ROUSING MUSIC!
EXTENDED TRAILER!
LUKE!
BEARD!
ROUSING MUSIC!
OMFG!
Although, can anyone hear what Luke actually says?
Although the changes in music tempo seemed to jar rather a lot, it still looked good. My concern is they could have a really good story about the lead characters, but it will all be rushed and lost in the attempts to crow bar in old characters and crappy merchandise.
Did anyone read that thing the other week about how JJB was actually really a bad guy?
That's a fan edit, isn't it?