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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 22:53 
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Can you dig it?

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On a personal level and this is really quite trivial but sums up the disconnect; playing Words with Friends against a stranger, and as we are chatting they mention how they'd like to move out to Southern Europe, somewhere warmer than Manchester, and maybe to retire there, even though they voted to leave :facepalm:

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:33 
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Heavy Metal Tough Guy

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Cras wrote:
There's a concern that they've basically just once again kicked the Ireland can further down the road, but it's certainly progress.

There isn't an awful lot of road left is there? Everything has to be fully signed and sealed by this time next year, which surely means it has to be basically done within 6 months to allow for all the ratification that needs to take place. I can't see anything happening by then that will prevent the fallback position of Northern Ireland remaining in the CU/SI. God only knows what will happen when May formally announces the arrangements for that.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 13:44 
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Ticket to Ride World Champion

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I think the chances of May formally announcing anything are pretty slim.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 16:12 
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https://www.ft.com/content/f1411812-21f ... itStory3UK

Quote:
EU rejects UK’s plans for post-Brexit trade relationship
Brussels instructs negotiators to take austere approach to trade talks

The EU has forcefully rebuffed Theresa May’s vision for trade after Brexit, laying out a narrow view of future relations with the UK and warning of the “negative economic consequences” of her choices.

Donald Tusk, the European Council president, circulated draft guidelines instructing EU negotiators to take an austere approach, with severely limited arrangements for services and regulatory co-operation. No mention of financial services is made.

“The European Council has to take into account the repeatedly stated positions of the UK, which limit the depth of such a future partnership. Being outside the customs union and the single market will inevitably lead to frictions,” the guidelines state.

“Divergence in external tariffs and internal rules as well as absence of common institutions and a shared legal system, necessitates checks and controls to uphold the integrity of the EU Single Market as well as of the UK market. This unfortunately will have negative economic consequences.”

The guidelines running to 5-6 pages are the most detailed presentation yet of the EU’s goals for future relations, cast as a response to London’s proposals. It sketches an economic relationship based around a free-trade agreement that could maintain zero tariffs and quotas on goods, but stops short of the kind of “dynamic” alignment of market rules sought by Britain.

The text says any future UK-EU relationship should be overseen by the European Court of Justice in cases of dispute settlement, which will also include the possibility of “sanctions and cross retaliation measures”.

It also rules out prime minister May’s desire for Britian to stay part of EU agencies such as the European Medicines Agency after Brexit. “The Union will preserve its autonomy as regards its decision-making, which excludes participation of the United Kingdom as a third-country to EU Institutions, agencies or bodies”, says the draft.

The guidelines are the EU27’s first attempt to sketch out a vision for a future EU-UK trade relationship and are subject to negotiation,

EU leaders are pressing Ms May for more clarity on her demands. The text states that should the UK’s position “evolve”, the EU “will be prepared to reconsider its offer”.

Other side agreements would seek to maintain as close a relationship as possible with a non-EU member across justice, security, aviation and fisheries.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 16:16 
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The text states that should the UK’s position “evolve”, the EU “will be prepared to reconsider its offer”.


That's as close to saying 'for fuck's sake you should have some idea by now' as is diplomatically possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 16:21 
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If we could somehow harness Barnier's endless inner screaming for good, we could generate clean energy for the power.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:55 
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The Daily Mail is losing its mind over the blue passports being manufactured in France. I thought they wanted to open our trade up to the world? Very confusing.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:07 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
The Daily Mail is losing its mind over the blue passports being manufactured in France. I thought they wanted to open our trade up to the world? Very confusing.


Why would its readers want passports anyway?
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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:17 
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Watching Leavers turn on Hannan in the replies to this: A+++ would schadenfreude again.

https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/statu ... 4232166400




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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:20 
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Damn those Hanoverians for giving up our claim to the French throne and removing it from the Royal Arms. That would have really shown 'em.

But hey, every 'Great Free Trade Deal' (TM ) we get will include open procurement rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:23 
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It wouldn't have been an issue had a previous Tory administration privatised their production.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:24 
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Heavy Metal Tough Guy

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I imagine British companies mint it from open procurement. We've got the sort of high-end services industry that must be constantly getting contracts from other governments for legal / financial / consultancy services.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:26 
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Squirt wrote:
I imagine British companies mint it from open procurement. We've got the sort of high-end services industry that must be constantly getting contracts from other governments for legal / financial / consultancy services.


This. Just as other countries' industries get contracts to run our services.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:26 
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Squirt wrote:
I imagine British companies mint it from open procurement. We've got the sort of high-end services industry that must be constantly getting contracts from other governments for legal / financial / consultancy services.

And long may our ability to export these services into the EU's expansive free trade area continue!

::finger in ear::

Wait, I'm getting some breaking news from our producers... Oh. Oh dear.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:07 
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A very level-headed take from The Sun though, credit where it's due:

https://twitter.com/sarahoconnor_/statu ... 5800401920




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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:10 
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Does that £12m take into account the taxes that are lost?

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:12 
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Grim... wrote:
Does that £12m take into account the taxes that are lost?

I doubt it, but if you spend that £12m on nurses you generate more tax revenue through them. So it's not unreasonable to ignore it. You can handwave about corporation tax paid by the British passport firm, I suppose, but then you can also put the opportunity costs of not having enough nurses on the other side of the ledger if you really want to go down this rabbit hole.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:12 
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Commander-in-Cheese

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Wait. I pay £80 for a new passport. Who's saving the £120 million?

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:25 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Does that £12m take into account the taxes that are lost?

I doubt it, but if you spend that £12m on nurses you generate more tax revenue through them. So it's not unreasonable to ignore it. You can handwave about corporation tax paid by the British passport firm, I suppose, but then you can also put the opportunity costs of not having enough nurses on the other side of the ledger if you really want to go down this rabbit hole.

Like the money will go to nurses ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:29 
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Grim... wrote:
Like the money will go to nurses ;)

It will, of course, go on tax breaks for the 1% who will invest that money wisely to create jobs and make us all richer :)

My point is your original post is a variation on the broken windows fallacy. It's not typically a good idea to pay £120m extra for the same service merely to receive the secondary economic effects it will generate. Working out where this overlaps with Keynesian stimuli is an exercise for the reader.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 13:00 
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Who would've thought hardcore Brexiteers were also protectionist too

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 13:18 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Like the money will go to nurses ;)

It will, of course, go on tax breaks for the 1% who will invest that money wisely to create jobs and make us all richer :)

My point is your original post is a variation on the broken windows fallacy. It's not typically a good idea to pay £120m extra for the same service merely to receive the secondary economic effects it will generate. Working out where this overlaps with Keynesian stimuli is an exercise for the reader.

My point was merely "it's complicated".

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 17:37 
Filthy Junkie Bitch

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You can’t take the tax revenue into account because if you were to do so, you’re assuming that no economic activity would be generated in its place by those people. That’s not a reasonable assertion in a near full employment economy.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 17:39 
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ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:
You can’t take the tax revenue into account because if you were to do so, you’re assuming that no economic activity would be generated in its place by those people. That’s not a reasonable assertion in a near full employment economy.

This is literally what I said.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 17:43 
Filthy Junkie Bitch

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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:
You can’t take the tax revenue into account because if you were to do so, you’re assuming that no economic activity would be generated in its place by those people. That’s not a reasonable assertion in a near full employment economy.

This is literally what I said.

I have no idea how I missed your post.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 23:44 
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Oh, Jeremy Corbyn. Stop sacking the people who are saying the right things.

BBC: Jeremy Corbyn sacks Labour's Owen Smith over referendum call

Oh, Jeremy Corbyn.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:50 
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This country is ridiculous.

https://twitter.com/HenryTribe/status/9 ... 7315217408




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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:13 
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Gogmagog

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amazing


Quote:
Consider the Conservative MP Nadine Dorries, revealed in a leaked WhatsApp exchange to have asked colleagues to explain the EU customs union to her because she was having problems defending her widely stated opposition to it. This is an almost perfect distillation of what happens when furious ignorance is afforded the same weight as evidence-based explication. Having received the required explanation, incidentally, Dorries concluded that her difficulty understanding it fully justified her opposition to membership of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 19:51 
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Let's leave the EU and take back control!

https://twitter.com/henrymance/status/9 ... 1265872899




Oh.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:03 
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Yes; that chimes with (if slightly different) a Beeb programme which looked into fishing rights and found the UK had sold - as I remember it - 90% of their fishing rights to 3 overseas companies. Rounded up from 88 and 3 became 1?

Some of those companies might have been in the EU, but none of it was because of the EU. Almost as if an over-literal implementation of rules and an ideological commitment to markets above all else were to blame, rather than the EU.

It is beyond bizarre that the fishermen in, say, Whitstable harbour didn't seem to have any idea about all this, and put up various messages thanking people for their support after the vote.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:56 
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Finally, the take on Brexit we need. Or at least deserve.

ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
Philomena Cunk wrote:
So on 24th June 2016, we had Brexit for breakfast. And it’s still the only thing on the menu. It’s not a nice breakfast, like the Honey Monster one. It’s gruel, like in Oliver!, delivered by cartoon Victorians like Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg. It’s like waking up day after day in a hipster hotel based on a workhouse.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:20 
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Bad Girl

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That’s funny because I almost said Brexit instead of breakfast today. Almost. I ain’t no loon.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 19:49 
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Gogmagog

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Quote:
What we have said is quite clearly you cannot negotiate everything before the divorce. We need to have an interim period when the status quo prevails. So the question then is, what is the nature of the divorce?

So far if the evidence of the past few months is anything to go on, it is going to be a ‘blah, blah, blah’ divorce. It is not going to make any decisions, it is going to continue to kick things down the road. We don’t seem to have come to any difficult decisions at the moment.

So the difficulty with a meaningful vote in October - which we have secured - is what is it that we are going to be agreeing on ? We have our six tests. If you hold up ‘blah, blah, blah’ to the six tests, it will probably pass it and then we leave the EU and then we are in the status quo and during that period there has to be a negotiation as to what our final relationship is going to be.

So I just hope upon hope we have a general election in the meantime and the grown-ups turn up, so it is decree nisi rather than a decree absolute.


Thornberry, today.

"We'll cheerfully vote it through, then try and wash our hands of it and blame the Tories"

Fucking shower, Labour.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:58 
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And as surely as night follows day, Sir Keir Starmer is reported in the Guardian that the position hasn't changed.

Whilst their current ambiguity is probably tactically helpful, making it all the Tories' fault, at some point they are going to have to make a decision. I really don't have any confidence that they'll make the right one.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 13:51 
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"Well, first of all, what I'm clear about," begins May, before she proceeds to be clear about absolutely nothing.

https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/stat ... 5607967750




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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 14:09 
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Was that transcribed by an V1 Alexa bot with dodgy hearing?

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 14:13 
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Grim... wrote:
Was that transcribed by an V1 Alexa bot with dodgy hearing?

No, it was spoken by a v0.1 Maybot with dodgy thinking.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 14:21 
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Excellent Painter

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L-lol

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 18:23 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
"Well, first of all, what I'm clear about," begins May, before she proceeds to be clear about absolutely nothing.


The short news summary on Radio 3 just now said that Mrs May was promising more money for the NHS and schools because we would no longer be paying so much to the EU. Actually pretty angry and insulted by this crap.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 18:29 
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Noob as of 6/8/10

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Grim... wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Like the money will go to nurses ;)

It will, of course, go on tax breaks for the 1% who will invest that money wisely to create jobs and make us all richer :)

My point is your original post is a variation on the broken windows fallacy. It's not typically a good idea to pay £120m extra for the same service merely to receive the secondary economic effects it will generate. Working out where this overlaps with Keynesian stimuli is an exercise for the reader.

My point was merely "it's complicated".


And don’t forget the ‘Yes, Minister/Prime Minister’ effect, i.e. no matter what they do, it’ll have the opposite to the desired effect.

Like having a referendum/snap general election.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 14:04 
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Leave.EU: we have the best domain name
The European Union: Hold our bier

https://ec.europa.eu/info/publications/ ... n-names_en


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 14:30 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Leave.EU: we have the best domain name
The European Union: Hold our bier

https://ec.europa.eu/info/publications/ ... n-names_en

Hahahahahaha!

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 13:40 
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Reassuring words from Ireland's EU commissioner, in today's Guardian:

Quote:
“One thing we have already learned from Brexit is that the UK does not have a better idea. It does not have a replacement for the union as a way to improve the life quality of its citizens, its businesses and its standing in the world,”


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:37 
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Gogmagog

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-polit ... ssion=true

Quote:
A Labour frontbencher has denounced one of the party's key Brexit policies in a recording of a questions session at a think-tank, obtained by the BBC.

Barry Gardiner used colourful language to rubbish the party's pledge to secure the exact same benefits as the single market after Brexit.....


Speaking about the "six tests" Labour set the government to decide whether to support the final Brexit deal in a Commons vote, he said: "Well let's just take one test - the exact same benefits. Bollocks.

"Always has been bollocks and it remains it."


Oh.my.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:55 
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Well, in part they are bollocks. Just a way to say 'yeah, we've looked at it, and we don't think this is a good way of doing it' so they reverse ferret gracefully rather than stand against the famous Will of the People (TM).

Gordon Brown's six tests on Euro membership were a similar ruse to punt it off into the long grass.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 13:04 
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The Radio 4 newsreader just gave a naughty word warning before introducing a report where the reporter quoted Mr Gardiner verbatim.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 13:08 
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Gogmagog

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There is often swearing in the afternoon plays!

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 13:15 
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Don't really expect it on the news however.

A lunchtime fuck on the Third was the most unexpected one I've heard.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 13:35 
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In years to come, we'll take our great-grandchildren to the planned Museum of Brexit, and look awkward when, inspired by patriotic fervour, they ask us what we did.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 13:36 
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Unpossible!

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Kern wrote:

A lunchtime fuck on the Third was [...] most unexpected.

:hat:


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