Be Excellent To Each Other

Discuss.

Are the games too complex? Too easy? Too long?
Do people forget they are playing?
Does the voting system promote or prevent voting?
Do we play too often?
Do you just like winding up the GMs?
Does roleplaying help?
Does roleplaying hinder?
Does the prospect of being modkilled make a difference?
Anything else?

I've lost count of the number of times where I've gone to post something, decided that just saying something might possibly bring unwanted attention to me, and deleted it.

Perhaps scrapping modkills is a good idea. There have certainly been times where people haven't been voted for because it's assumed (sometimes correctly, sometimes incorrectly) that they'll be modkilled soon. Get rid of them and people will at least have to take the quiet ones into account.

I stopped talking because I died.

But then the town gets to waste all their lynches on people who just aren't bothering to play. Everyone who got modkilled in this game was vanilla town.

I’m the same as Joans. I go to write stuff then don’t want to attract attention to myself so then delete it. I also struggle to get on the forum as much as I’d like some days so that doesn’t help.

The games do get a bit confusing sometimes but I think that’s up to me not understanding the rules properly so ignore that.

I like the idea of voting for the person to keep though. We should do that for the next game... but not too soon. Might be worth giving it a few weeks.

Go the other way then. Modkill and ban from the next x games. Banned from the boards completely until the game is over?

Why stop there? Get them fired? Arrested? Kidnap their family? Burn their house?

I think you're going a little far there.

Yeah, burning their house isn't necessary.

Not everyone, the informer got modkilled.

Personally, I would like more people to step up to write and run games. If everyone who was playing had an understanding of quite how much effort it takes to write a game, they might be more understanding of how annoying it can get if people don't talk....

Done it. Fucked it up. Still recovering

I'm still recovering from having to take over Bobbyaros game at the cottage.

I suspect that 'fear of dying' is one of the main reasons why people don't talk so much, as Joans has just said. Talking and dying are the fundamental parts of the game. It's fun and exciting to cast accusations, watch the vote count roll up at the beginning of the games, and most exciting when it's your head on the line, so talking is what makes the game fun. If the town isn't talking, they are doing the mafia's job for them, as there's a higher chance of whacking a mute townie than a mute mafia, maybe. So don't worry about being lynched and just talk away, like we did in the cottage.

How do other places cope with quietness in games?

By not doing them as often, and by having a wider playerbase to draw on meaning that people don't get so jaded because they're not all playing every game, I think.

They run their games with 2 week long days...

Well that just means that people are idiots for signing up for games when they are jaded. The game isn't compulsory.

Indeed. The current game was a pretty interesting concept (if I do say so myself ) and people seemed excited to play, yet the game fell flat very quickly. It wasn't the worst game by any stretch, but people seem excited by the thought of playing, but when it comes to actually playing, not so much.

Reasons seem to be:
1) Real life gets in the way.
2) I dont want to talk as that makes me a target.

err... anything else?

Reason 1 is fine, it happens. Reason 2 is a self-fulfilling prophecy though, if no-one is talking, then talking makes you a target, ad infinitum.

Is there anything we can do to fix this, or is that just the way it is?

Throwing it out there: Can only do night action if you contribute?
Dummy power roles that don't do anything, just inform player that their night action was 'blocked' or something.

Money. £2 buy in.

Hmm. You get the most talking when there's something to talk about. The first couple of days there's often absolutely nothing to go on, so talk is generally 'Woo, I'm in a scum game!". Until there's some activity that gives people some logic paths to debate over, I can't see why you would get much talking - because there's nothing to talk about.

Intordce a role with a win condition to be 'start the ball rolling on X number of lynches'?

Craster - that was a question I had for you (but you were still in the game at the time) - you brough this to the forum , did you have previous experience of it ?

I think that the change in voting this time helped the town but it didnt help people to get involved (which is why in the other thread i mentioned that i thought it had failed) , the lynching of people on 2 or 3 votes says more about the apathy of the players rather than the fact that someone had convinced them of an action to take.

And the 'not saying anything because you call attention to yourself' should not be a valid argument, i think it was the last game where I was very vocal about going for the silent ones even if they ended up being townies because to my mind they were simply not playing the game.

Modkills should exist , and i commend Trooper on actually carrying them out , but we do need a better way to get people more motivated to take part - I just dont know what it is :-(

Mysterious role that gains an option of a night action per day, depending on how active they are. Only the player doesn't know it's them until it is conferred upon them?

This, it was a good call.

Too difficult to determine who first plants the seed of suspicion. Plus, people would be lynching people without thinking about what role they were playing, just to achieve their individual win condition.

Thats an interesting idea , how about some points totally unrelated to the overall game to thrown in there - e.g. you dont Like Craster and a secondary win condition is to be part of a lynch mob which kills him (bonus points for that being on day 1)

Super quick first couple of days? But that has the problem that we need a lunchtime and evening in each day, as not everyone can post at all points of the day.

Super quick first couple of days will end in a nolynch, or be too easy for the mafia to hit the town. Which, could provide incentive tog et the town talking, true.

Zaphod's idea was pretty good.

Also there does tend to be a reasonable amount of talk on the first day or two simply by the volume of players.

Might having a more limited number of players also help - i remember at the start things being set for something like 14 people and you simply put your name down on a waiting list to get in the game ?

I get worried about writing things. So do delete lots of replies to not attract too much attention. It's quite difficult in a game where whatever you say is scrutinized to the letter and even the slightest typo leads to a bandwagon on you. It's probably people just scared about being voted off

Perhaps more roles are needed. People sign up for an exciting sounding game, find out that they're a townie again and don't have as much interest.

We did that a while back and it worked quite well, I think. IIRC, Slightly_Green was stalking me and I had to get him killed. Was that also a trooper game?

I find this a bit of a shame. Part of the game is trying not to get lunches by force of words. Not talking just isn't as much fun.

WHERE'S MY FUCKING BURGER?

No, no trying Not to get lunches. Or lynched.

We've done a few like that, where each person had a secondary and some sort of additional actions to perform. They were fun, didn't increase participation that much, but did help a bit I think. However they are a bitch to write, especially if you have 20+ players.

It's difficult to know what gimmick will work though, and why they work, which is why I think the problem is more fundamental than that and probably can't be solved with game gimmicks. For example out of recent games:

Blind Scum - nobody knew any of the roles - worked really well
UN Scum - multiple teams and a hidden role - worked really well
Fake mafia - a whole underground mafia - didn't work too well
Beex Noire - full on defined roleplaying - didn't work too well

If having a complete hidden mafia playing and throwing things into the mix didn't get the conversation going, then I don't know what gimmick will reliably

Can't remember, I think I did one where you and davpaz were brother and sister and had to disagree with each other, no matter what was said?

I forget

But then games get hideously complex with loads of roles kicking about, as you have to make more and more rules for it to make sense.

As you are probably aware, i'm more than happy to make massive games with loads of roles and rules But I thought people wanted simpler games...

Maybe people just don't know what they want

edited to add: Oh, and ironically, one good way of identifying townies, is that they typically talk more...

I enjoy playing, but I am just shit....

I like the "play for money" idea. Just a small buy in, £1 or £2, but 20 players means the prize for winning is more than your buy-in, even if you're a townie. OK, might not be much higher, but still.

You'd only win the money if you're still alive at the end, and with a modkill rule to kill off mute players, it might help force conversation.

The complexity is fine, my concern is always with the balancing. Getting the numbers right to make it fair on both/all sides is tricky, and the more you deviate from the formula, the trickier it is. The only one I thought really didn't work (although it appears you did ) was the UN game, because that didn't fit the mould of a mafia game at all.

You only thought that, because you couldn't get your head round the Swiss being the townies

I thought it worked really well, less because of the countries, but more because of the spy passing messages around.

It was my game. SG thought they were in love, Craster knew SG was a stalker. Both played it superbly.

My games seem to mostly work out alright; you must just suck, Trooper.

Maybe I just have higher standards, your games suck too imo

I actually quite like this idea. Make it poker themed too, and it could even fit in with the game...

I am in..

Yeah, but then you don't want to be a SK as you have less chance of winning the money.

You might have less chance maybe.