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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:04 
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SavyGamer

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TheVision wrote:
And how long will it take to fill a 500gb harddrive? That's a concern if there's mandatory installs.

Apparently you can't replace the drive, but you can expand it with USB storage.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:06 
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Chinny chin chin

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RuySan wrote:
chinnyhill10 wrote:
Just watched this:

http://kotaku.com/the-entire-xbox-one-reveal-summed-up-in-1-5-hilarious-509197649

From what I can make out they are making a game called "Call of Doody" which the primary selling point of which is that you have a dog. Like Shadow Dancer but with 200 people working on a 3D model.

[slaps forehead]


And you can caress your dog and bag its turds with kinect i bet.


How is Kinect even going to work anyway? I sit down playing my games in a small room. I don't want to be waving around doing Street Fighter 2 style moves just to get to the games menu. Kinect only comes into its own if you have projector and a huge room IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:07 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Grim... wrote:
If this turns out to be true, then it's just about perfect as far as I'm concerned:
See my link above.
Hence "turns out to be true".

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Microsoft PR has now described this as hypothetical only.
It's not perfect for you. You wouldn't have been able to borrow Sleeping Dogs from Craster.
That's the first game I've borrowed in about ten years though, in fairness ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:08 
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Way to be clear, Microsoft!

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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:08 
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ugvm'er at heart...

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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Trooper wrote:
A bit more detail on the install and fee business

Except Microsoft PR is trying to roll back Phil Harrison's comments. What the fuck is going on?


:D

I expect Phil Harrison is 90% correct on what it does, with some minor changes to implementation detail, they just didn't want the info released yet.

It is either amateur hour, or a blatant attempt to confuse the market so nobody actually knows how it works until they buy one, and then it doesn't matter to MS...
I suspect the former.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:11 
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chinnyhill10 wrote:
RuySan wrote:
chinnyhill10 wrote:
Just watched this:

http://kotaku.com/the-entire-xbox-one-reveal-summed-up-in-1-5-hilarious-509197649

From what I can make out they are making a game called "Call of Doody" which the primary selling point of which is that you have a dog. Like Shadow Dancer but with 200 people working on a 3D model.

[slaps forehead]


And you can caress your dog and bag its turds with kinect i bet.


How is Kinect even going to work anyway? I sit down playing my games in a small room. I don't want to be waving around doing Street Fighter 2 style moves just to get to the games menu. Kinect only comes into its own if you have projector and a huge room IMO.


Kinect is also the conduit for all the voice control business. So you can shout at your TV instead of waving your arms about, as everybody wants to do that rather than press a button.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:12 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
No. That's one thing that seems to be clear. The disc is really just a download shortcut, with everything post-install happening via semi-online authentication rather than the "physical DRM" that is disc ownership. This implies (but the picture is fuzzy on details) no game rentals, no game lending, no play with prolonged periods with an internet connection, and no preowned.


As Trooper has said, if this were the case, and games were £10, I don't think I'd be too bothered.

As it stands, I'm not convinced it'll work in the EU, and the games'll be £25+, I'm decidedly less interested in it. I think it's cynical for publishers to get a double dip here.

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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:19 
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Chinny chin chin

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MaliA wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
No. That's one thing that seems to be clear. The disc is really just a download shortcut, with everything post-install happening via semi-online authentication rather than the "physical DRM" that is disc ownership. This implies (but the picture is fuzzy on details) no game rentals, no game lending, no play with prolonged periods with an internet connection, and no preowned.


As Trooper has said, if this were the case, and games were £10, I don't think I'd be too bothered.


They won't be though will they? They'll be at the shop RRP just like they are at the moment so basically it ends up being cheaper to get it at Tesco than download it.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:20 
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Grim... wrote:
I guess it begs the question, though - why the fuck am I bothering with a disc?


To save you a potentially huge download before you can play your game. Not a problem for you or me necessarily but a deal-breaker for people with slow download speeds and/or capped internet packages.

Oh, also, you might be able to pick up a disc copy from somewhere cheaper than MS are offering the game for on their online store. Doing away with discs entirely would see MS completely in control of the prices for all games for the console, which isn't a comforting idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:25 
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chinnyhill10 wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
No. That's one thing that seems to be clear. The disc is really just a download shortcut, with everything post-install happening via semi-online authentication rather than the "physical DRM" that is disc ownership. This implies (but the picture is fuzzy on details) no game rentals, no game lending, no play with prolonged periods with an internet connection, and no preowned.


As Trooper has said, if this were the case, and games were £10, I don't think I'd be too bothered.


They won't be though will they? They'll be at the shop RRP just like they are at the moment so basically it ends up being cheaper to get it at Tesco than download it.


That's exactly the point. I don't mind an account linked download model if the games are cheap, but they won't be, so I do mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:30 
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Curiosity wrote:
Way to be clear, Microsoft!


With this in mind, let's not forget that the console is only a day away from being announced. There's tons of stuff that they didn't mention and they're all going to irrelevant points anyway because Microsoft aren't asking anyone to part with their cash straight away.

There's plenty of time for more news to come out and there will be plenty of opportunity to make a decision on which console suits you best in the coming months.

Overall, I thought that the presentation showed promise.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:32 
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chinnyhill10 wrote:
They won't be though will they? They'll be at the shop RRP just like they are at the moment so basically it ends up being cheaper to get it at Tesco than download it.
I dunno, maybe they're going to do a proper digital trading system - resellers like Tesco can buy codes en masse and sell them on individually, maybe even in-store by printing them on a receipt.

Yeah, I know.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:35 
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Oh, the other thing, if it does turn out that you can sell your digital games from your account, and get cash back for them, that'll be fun when your account gets hacked...
Do you trust MS to be able to run a secure service? They won't even admit that they currently have security holes.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:36 
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Microsoft are maneuvering in a way that it seems like they are seeking to gain control over pricing, and will almost certainly result in higher software prices across the board for the Xbox One.

A tax on preowned games (whether it is the end user or a reseller that is paying it) will drive up preowned prices, and this will in turn drive up new games prices. Mostly likely not in terms of an increase in RRP for games, but in that retailers will discount them less and more gradually.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:41 
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LewieP wrote:
A tax on preowned games (whether it is the end user or a reseller that is paying it) will drive up preowned prices, and this will in turn drive up new games prices. Mostly likely not in terms of an increase in RRP for games, but in that retailers will discount them less and more gradually.
As a counter-argument to this, Steam has no preowned games reselling at all, and yet prices are lower -- often much lower -- than for consoles.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:42 
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I've said it before, but I'll say it again - game prices haven't changed since the cartridge consoles came out - SFII was £60 for the SNES on release.

The cost of making games has gone through the roof, however. Sure, they sell more nowadays (although not as many as you'd think, unless it's Call of Duty), but gaming is stupidly cheap compared to not only itself in the past, but other forms of media (assuming you don't steal them).

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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:49 
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SFII is a poor example, as it was unusually expensive.

To be fairer, consider that Xbox 360 games have been £40 through the entire cycle -- inflation alone across seven years means they should be £45 now, just to cost the same. This is probably why some of the very newest releases have crept up to £43 lately.

As for the "numbers of games sold", this generation hasn't sold that many more consoles than the sixth generation, and even as far back as the fourth the total number of consoles sold has only about doubled. The cost to make a game has increased something like tenfold or more in the same period. So "they sell more games to make up for it" isn't true.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:00 
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Maybe I should calibrate my display. I thought Magnavox were doing incredibly well this generation...


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:03 
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I think buying new should be a similar experience. Buying second hand I feel they want to offer the same but with some control over resale and lending. I.E. having the disc alone doesn't mean you actually own the game.

Essentially it's probably what we all feared for 2nd hand gaming. Perhaps though this shows they want to handle things as softly as possible by opening it to re-sellers but either way we'll have to pay the IP holder and the re-seller some cash. It will still require management via Microsoft/Publisher and a deal with the stores to dish out new codes but should at least mean we get similar offerings/deals. The price drops/discounts for 2nd hand will have the option of being managed through MS/Publishers and not via the stores directly. It might only be a small percentage of the overall cost gets transferred to MS/Publishers and it might also mean the game has to be installed via disc to stop day one 2nd hand games. But the downside is I can't see the stores wanting to take the hit on their own profits going to MS for 2nd hand games. So it's likely everything is going to be more expensive... but hopefully not too much.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:04 
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Isn't that lovely?

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A thought occurs to me:

At the moment I have netflix and sky on my profile on the 360, the kids have their own profiles, but use my profile to watch stuff on netflix and sky.

If xbox one can recognise who is holding the controller and log them in, will they be able to watch netflix and sky on my profile?

Malc

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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:17 
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Malc wrote:
If xbox one can recognise who is holding the controller and log them in, will they be able to watch netflix and sky on my profile?

Malc


I expect so, I can't imagine they are designing for the kinect being infallible, that would be crazy. There has to be a manual login too.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:22 
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Chinny chin chin

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Trooper wrote:
Maybe I should calibrate my display. I thought Magnavox were doing incredibly well this generation...


:this:

And this display IS calibrated!


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:40 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
[Graph]
So "they sell more games to make up for it" isn't true.

I agree with Grim..., BUT WITH SCIENCE ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:43 
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A cheap shot, but funny:



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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:47 
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Grim... wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
[Graph]
So "they sell more games to make up for it" isn't true.

I agree with Grim..., BUT WITH SCIENCE ;)

Also console sales don't necessarily equate with game sales. :luv:


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:50 
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Grim... wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
[Graph]
So "they sell more games to make up for it" isn't true.

I agree with Grim..., BUT WITH SCIENCE ;)

Although this has been a far longer generation than other ones in recent history. Ubisoft have got away with making what, 6 Assassin's Creed games? All iterating on basically the same tech. EA, too have managed to push out more of their annual sports series, and Activision have released 6 Call of Duties that have all been reusing the same engine, and they've even recycled assets between entries.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:51 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
A cheap shot, but funny:



Embedding feex.



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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:55 
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Well the stuff about a game being locked to an account has made me feel slightly better but only if what's been quoted here turns out to be true. If I buy a new game and its tied to my account but my fiancée can play it without paying again by logging onto my Xbox which has the game on the hardrive, then that's reassuring. If however, we had to pay a fee again for her to play then that's a dealbreaker for me.
I also imagine that the news which has reassured me a bit could still be winding up parents. If I had three kids, aged 10,12 and 14, I could pretty much guarantee that the 14 year old wouldn't want the ten year old coming into play on their Xbox, when in the past they could just give them the disc into their own room.
I think that for Microsoft to try and solve a problem like this, which doesn't impact the consumers and in their solution have a impact on consumers then they have handled this badly. As RuySan said, at this point graphics aren't really what's selling it for us and so seemingly small inconveniences like this really do make a huge difference.
Has there been any word on how Sony are going to handle the same issue? I've still not decided what I'm going to get and I imagine the exclusives will have a lot of sway for me but when I had an Xbox and a PS4, the reason I preferred Xbox was the dashboard and whole online experience. That could be the same thing that makes me go back to Sony.
The release schedule of the playstation could bother me as well mind you. I'm going to want to buy one as soon as I see new shiny in the shop and I have the self control of a lamp so I hope the ps4 release isn't staggered, that would be irritating.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 13:02 

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I believe Sony have so far said they aren't implementing any kind of block on pre-owned.

To be honest, PSN+ alone has me more interested in the PS4 so far.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 13:05 
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Sony aren't implemented anything at the OS level, but when asked about it after the PS4 launch event refused to rule out enabling publishers to do something similar for specific games. That's all we know.

I find it difficult to believe EA won't pressure Sony to match Microsoft on this.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 13:21 
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sdg wrote:
I also imagine that the news which has reassured me a bit could still be winding up parents. If I had three kids, aged 10,12 and 14, I could pretty much guarantee that the 14 year old wouldn't want the ten year old coming into play on their Xbox, when in the past they could just give them the disc into their own room.


From the 1st of July to the 4th, I will be in that position (The 14 year old turns 15 on the 5th of July)

We get round this by having the xbox downstairs as that would indeed be a problem.

I get that you mean owning more than one console, I wonder if they will do a similar thing with the family xbox live membership at the moment, and that anyone in the "family" will be able to play the game in their console.

Malc

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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 14:19 
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If nothing else.. this new console has got us talking about something game related for a change. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 14:21 
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Also, it seems that by volume of discussion alone, we're still far more interested in Xbox than we are Wii or PlayStation.

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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 14:23 
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http://www.anandtech.com/show/6972/xbox-one-hardware-compared-to-playstation-4

According to this, the PS4 has more grunt. But i don't think this will decide the winner, even though i think the PS4 will be more successful.

Even though sony screwed up o lot in the early days of the PS3, it eventually went to surpass the X360 in everywhere except the US. The playstation brand is still much stronger than the xbox brand and that's a really big factor.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 14:24 
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Grim... wrote:
Also, it seems that by volume of discussion alone, we're still far more interested in slagging off Microsoft than we are Sony or Nintendo.

Fixed.

Not entirely accurate but there's a bit of that I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 14:31 
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Grim... wrote:
Also, it seems that by volume of discussion alone, we're still far more interested in Xbox than we are Wii or PlayStation.


Who are we kidding, as crap as it looks, we'll all still buy one...


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 14:35 
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Grim... wrote:
Also, it seems that by volume of discussion alone, we're all far more worried about the rumours we've heard surrounding the new Xbox than we are about the PS4 hence more discussion despite a comparable amount of info being released about both consoles at this stage.


Or people are far more worried about the rumours we've been hearing around MS' plans for their console (always online, no second hand games, etc) hence more appetite for discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 14:36 
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Trooper wrote:
Who are we kidding, as crap as it looks, we'll all still buy one...
Eventually, perhaps. But this year? I doubt it, personally.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 14:42 
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Trooper wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Also, it seems that by volume of discussion alone, we're still far more interested in Xbox than we are Wii or PlayStation.


Who are we kidding, as crap as it looks, we'll all still buy one...


You'll all rush out and buy both, squabble for a bit, one will be decided on and then I'll buy a PC join the fun. Probably.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 14:42 
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Unless it's really obvious which one to go for then I reckon I'll wait until they've been out a good few months before bothering with either.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 14:43 
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RuySan wrote:
Even though sony screwed up o lot in the early days of the PS3, it eventually went to surpass the X360 in everywhere except the US. The playstation brand is still much stronger than the xbox brand and that's a really big factor.


There were a number of posts at the end of last week on total sales that had the PS3 eclipse the 360 for worldwide sales (and i dont know about anyone else but i'm on my 3rd 360 whereas my original PS3 ran fine until i sold it last year)


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 14:43 
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markg wrote:
Unless it's really obvious which one to go for then I reckon I'll wait until they've been out a good few months before bothering with either.


Also first gen Microsoft kit has a habit of exploding/failing/going wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 14:45 
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I don't see that happening this time around, although it would be quite amusing if it did. In any case I'm not too fussed about that really, they will put it right if it does explode.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 14:49 
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I'll buy both on the week of release I expect, because i'm an idiot.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 14:50 
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http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2 ... -be-resold

Quote:
GameStop president Tony Bartel has reassured consumers that next-gen games will be able to be bought and sold on the pre-owned market, and explained why that is important as consoles transition.

"Both Sony and Microsoft have said games can be resold and that's exactly what we anticipated. It's a recognised way to make these games more affordable. All three new platforms understand that," Bartel told Forbes.
Harrison suggested there was an announcement to come about this too.

My take is: GameStop and other affiliated retailers will be able to pay MS a fee to unlock pre-owned games they get in. So, effectively, MS get a cut of preowned sales. Or another way to look at it: retail still gets to sell us preowned copies at a £5 discount over new, while we can no longer lend, trade, or give old games away to friends. The worst of all worlds, then. Fuck.

Y'know, this makes perfect sense. Games publishers weren't looking at the vast piles of cash made by the likes of GameStop on preowned sales and thinking, We must stop this evil. They were thinking: We gotta get us some of that. And this is how.
 
So it looks like: pre-owned game is traded into GameStop. GameStop pay a fee to Microsoft (which kicks back to the publisher), Microsoft disable the game registration attached to the old console and open it back up to the next one its played in. Sometime in the next 24 hours, the console belonging to the person who traded it in deactivates the game. Someone new receives the disc, the servers know that this disc has been marked as "preowned and available", and it installs and plays as normal.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 14:54 
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markg wrote:
I guess quite a few do then, but how many of those have a headset for it? I don't and it's pretty essential for any sort of Bezzie gaming scenario.

It always seemed a strange omission to me to leave those out of the standard PS3 packages.

Heh -- Xbone won't include a headset in the box.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 15:03 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-05-22-gamestop-president-ps4-and-xbox-one-games-can-be-resold

Quote:
GameStop president Tony Bartel has reassured consumers that next-gen games will be able to be bought and sold on the pre-owned market, and explained why that is important as consoles transition.

"Both Sony and Microsoft have said games can be resold and that's exactly what we anticipated. It's a recognised way to make these games more affordable. All three new platforms understand that," Bartel told Forbes.
Harrison suggested there was an announcement to come about this too.

My take is: GameStop and other affiliated retailers will be able to pay MS a fee to unlock pre-owned games they get in. So, effectively, MS get a cut of preowned sales. Or another way to look at it: retail still gets to sell us preowned copies at a £5 discount over new, while we can no longer lend, trade, or give old games away to friends. The worst of all worlds, then. Fuck.

Y'know, this makes perfect sense. Games publishers weren't looking at the vast piles of cash made by the likes of GameStop on preowned sales and thinking, We must stop this evil. They were thinking: We gotta get us some of that. And this is how.
 
So it looks like: pre-owned game is traded into GameStop. GameStop pay a fee to Microsoft (which kicks back to the publisher), Microsoft disable the game registration attached to the old console and open it back up to the next one its played in. Sometime in the next 24 hours, the console belonging to the person who traded it in deactivates the game. Someone new receives the disc, the servers know that this disc has been marked as "preowned and available", and it installs and plays as normal.


This is what I expect, and this is why I said it will drive prices up. If retailers increase the price of preowned to include MS's effective preowned tax, you can be sure that they'll also increase new prices.

I expect they'll have a solution for affiliated rental services like Blockbuster and Lovefilm too.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 15:04 
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Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 48607
Location: Cheshire
Hmm. This will affect public libraries, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 15:07 
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Chinny chin chin

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 15695
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
markg wrote:
I guess quite a few do then, but how many of those have a headset for it? I don't and it's pretty essential for any sort of Bezzie gaming scenario.

It always seemed a strange omission to me to leave those out of the standard PS3 packages.

Heh -- Xbone won't include a headset in the box.


I heard it will have a headset, but all you'll be able to hear through it is Microsoft execs who have never played a game in their lives spout marketing bullshit at you about how great the "experience" is.


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 Post subject: Re: Xbox reveal today!
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 15:08 
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Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 16552
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
markg wrote:
I guess quite a few do then, but how many of those have a headset for it? I don't and it's pretty essential for any sort of Bezzie gaming scenario.

It always seemed a strange omission to me to leave those out of the standard PS3 packages.

Heh -- Xbone won't include a headset in the box.

Heh, a bit irrelevant since surely you won't really need one to participate in online chat when the Kinect has a microphone anyway.


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