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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 18:25 
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Let's not forget the bell-end also forgot to renew the Fairplay domain name and it then got cloned with ads on it and he was all pissed off about it. Chuckle or three indeed Cavey ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 18:25 
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To be fair, I think Hearthly very much acknowledged that they 'won' a small concession from the industry and that was it - but that small concession was worthwhile

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 18:33 
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Cras wrote:
To be fair, I think Hearthly very much acknowledged that they 'won' a small concession from the industry and that was it - but that small concession was worthwhile


Bleh. Well, whatevs man. :)
Personally I think anyone who plays/played fruities *at all* for any length of time knew damn well about 'blocking' & the rest (even assuming they can be arsed to read some sticker), but hey, that's just my view and it was all a very long time ago.

Plus, it's been 10 years at least since I've played a fruity in a pub, arcade or anywhere else, and most people nowadays - even the kids - know they're a waste of time unless you "know" stuff. How many people besides chavs and addicts play them these days; how many pubs still even *have* a fruit machine at all? (Quite a few of the manufacturers have gone bust I believe?)

So basically I'm not arsed, good riddance, "Fairplay" compliant or otherwise. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 20:50 
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Cavey wrote:
how many pubs still even *have* a fruit machine at all?


All of them?


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 21:14 
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Saturnalian wrote:
Cavey wrote:
how many pubs still even *have* a fruit machine at all?


All of them?


Seriously...? Not around here they're not. Granted, I'm not exactly hanging round Wetherspoons but the point is this: these very same pubs *did* have fruities in them 10 years ago.

Ask yourself, why are these household names like JPM,Barcrest, Maygay etc gone? Pubs are increasingly premium, family and food orientated, and some leery twat sharking someone else pumping pound after pound into some seedy pseudo gambling machine just isn't a good look in 2015.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 21:15 
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They usually have one of those quiz machines instead. Even better at removing money from people.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 21:34 
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I find the family friendly food pubs still tend to have over 18s only bars, usually around the back near the bins. The frutie will be there, along with the pool table and a couple of dodgy chavs that really shouldn't be getting lashed in the Wacky Warehouse


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 21:54 
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I live by the sea (less than 100ft) and in the many arcades around here there are either absolutely no fruit machines or they have a shady looking 'casino' area with a couple of AWPs in.

But some of the arcades have none whatsoever and the 10p 'kiddy robbing' fruits are all gone. It's all arcade games and cranes etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 21:54 
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Cavey wrote:
Saturnalian wrote:
Cavey wrote:
how many pubs still even *have* a fruit machine at all?


All of them?


Seriously...?


Seriously.

But then again I'll hang around any old dive; yet I still see one in the corner of most pubs even if I don't go seeking then out (never have. Although I'll drop a quid or two when I'm bored. It's just daft flashing lights, init).


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 21:56 
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JohnCoffey wrote:
I live by the sea (less than 100ft) and in the many arcades around here there are either absolutely no fruit machines or they have a shady looking 'casino' area with a couple of AWPs in.

But some of the arcades have none whatsoever and the 10p 'kiddy robbing' fruits are all gone. It's all arcade games and cranes etc.


I went Blackpool once and was sickened that the arcades had been replaced with shit loads of fruit machines. I'm going back a couple of years mind. And the same with Skeg too.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 22:02 
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Do you know what I wonder? Why they chose fruit?

Why not vegetables? Or insects? Or household appliances?

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 22:10 
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I was in Blackpool last week and cant recall a huge number of fruits. Certainly not enough to be astounded by them anyway. More falls than I expected and grabby crane cunts though.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 22:33 
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Mimi wrote:
Do you know what I wonder? Why they chose fruit?

Why not vegetables? Or insects? Or household appliances?

Flavours of chewing gum.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 22:40 
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I might chuck 20p worth of 2ps into one of those sliding coin machines. The potential to win up to 20p worth of 2ps for only 20p is just too much value to resist.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:23 
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Grim... wrote:
Mimi wrote:
Do you know what I wonder? Why they chose fruit?

Why not vegetables? Or insects? Or household appliances?

Flavours of chewing gum.

:this: Some of the original American slot machines paid out in bars of chewing gum in times or places where gambling wasn't allowed. That's also where the BAR comes from.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:04 
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lasermink wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Mimi wrote:
Do you know what I wonder? Why they chose fruit?

Why not vegetables? Or insects? Or household appliances?

Flavours of chewing gum.

:this: Some of the original American slot machines paid out in bars of chewing gum in times or places where gambling wasn't allowed. That's also where the BAR comes from.

Ah! That's brilliant.

Thats my happy thing of the day. Cheers, both :)

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:47 
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JohnCoffey wrote:
I live by the sea (less than 100ft) and in the many arcades around here there are either absolutely no fruit machines or they have a shady looking 'casino' area with a couple of AWPs in.

But some of the arcades have none whatsoever and the 10p 'kiddy robbing' fruits are all gone. It's all arcade games and cranes etc.


Interesting mate; I haven't set foot in a seaside arcade for 15 years or so, but I can't imagine what there're like with no fruities? Of course, it was wall-to-wall Super Line Up, Razzle Dazzle, Big Shot, AutoRoute, Reel Crazy, Superbank and Exchanges Unlimited and the like in the days of my misspent youth; even such rarities and antiquities like Ace Sidewinder and its unmistakable and very loud "peeoww-peeoww-peeoww" nudge noise (the great rash of lo-techs came later of course; it was hi-techs all the way back in '84).

You'll recall some 10 years ago or more that I said (on FF) that all fruities would disappear in favour of random machines with features and if I were the CEO of JPM or Barcrest, I'd be pumping every last pound of R&D money into these? I was scoffed at; features on random machines...? Pah! Impossible!

But of course, we now have bookies upon bookies laden with the likes of Rainbow Riches and all the rest - all random machines with features. And that's not even including the virtual whordes of such "machines" being played on people's phones, laptops and smart TVs; who is going to play some bent, pre-determined piece of shit that purports to give 70% RTP but in actuality you have precisely zero chance of winning on & you're lining some so-called "pro's" pocket (an elephant in the room that "Fairplay" rather conspicuously failed to address, as I said repeatedly at the time), when you can play a random machine that doesn't cheat, can't cheat, and gives 95% or even higher RTP? A bit of a 'no-brainer' there.

So then, the fruit machine is far from dead as you appreciate of course, but it's a very far cry from what we'd actually consider being a 'traditional' fruit machine here in the UK. Can't say I shed a tear to be honest; in retrospect these were surely wasted years for me, and the nemesis of too many young men, House of the Rising Sun and all that malarky.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:01 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
I might chuck 20p worth of 2ps into one of those sliding coin machines. The potential to win up to 20p worth of 2ps for only 20p is just too much value to resist.


...I blame "Tipping Point"

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:08 
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Morte wrote:
ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
I might chuck 20p worth of 2ps into one of those sliding coin machines. The potential to win up to 20p worth of 2ps for only 20p is just too much value to resist.


...I blame "Tipping Point"


Meh. Still, you've just gotta love the "chink-chink-chink-chink" of coins physically dropping into a pay tray though, right? (Shit, I know I did. :D I'd probably lost a shedload but there was just something about pressing COLLECT for about £30 in 20p tokens at the arcade off something like Project Coin's Sevens and Melons, with an entirely unjustified smug grin). Gambling is irrational, the house always wins and all that, but if it were down to purely logic, no-one would ever gamble - from shoving a tuppenny bit down a "cash falls" as Gnomes mentions, right the way through to chucking a million quids worth of chips on Red.

Me? Like some recovering alcy, I fecking love it, but thank fork I've (currently) got it under control. The thought of someone like me running riot in Vegas is truly terrifying.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:14 
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I'd honestly watch an hour long programme of people just dropping disks into the machine...it's hypnotic.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:15 
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Mimi wrote:
Do you know what I wonder? Why they chose fruit?

Why not vegetables? Or insects? Or household appliances?


Heh, three cucumbers or a brace of onions just don't seem right though? :D
Mrs C has been trained to remember the entire Bell Fruit club paytable from memory, from years of me lining up four melons, three lemons or even pineapples in 20 years of joint trips to Sainsbury's or wherever - with much incredulity, pitying looks and/or tutting from fellow shoppers, it has to be said. (In between making big nob jokes using a butternut squash, natch).

Probably helped that I "paid out" the actual prize value to her when she got it right, I'm a great believer in incentivisation. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 14:44 
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Cavey wrote:
Interesting mate; I haven't set foot in a seaside arcade for 15 years or so, but I can't imagine what there're like with no fruities? Of course, it was wall-to-wall Super Line Up, Razzle Dazzle, Big Shot, AutoRoute, Reel Crazy, Superbank and Exchanges Unlimited and the like in the days of my misspent youth; even such rarities and antiquities like Ace Sidewinder and its unmistakable and very loud "peeoww-peeoww-peeoww" nudge noise (the great rash of lo-techs came later of course; it was hi-techs all the way back in '84).

You'll recall some 10 years ago or more that I said (on FF) that all fruities would disappear in favour of random machines with features and if I were the CEO of JPM or Barcrest, I'd be pumping every last pound of R&D money into these? I was scoffed at; features on random machines...? Pah! Impossible!

But of course, we now have bookies upon bookies laden with the likes of Rainbow Riches and all the rest - all random machines with features. And that's not even including the virtual whordes of such "machines" being played on people's phones, laptops and smart TVs; who is going to play some bent, pre-determined piece of shit that purports to give 70% RTP but in actuality you have precisely zero chance of winning on & you're lining some so-called "pro's" pocket (an elephant in the room that "Fairplay" rather conspicuously failed to address, as I said repeatedly at the time), when you can play a random machine that doesn't cheat, can't cheat, and gives 95% or even higher RTP? A bit of a 'no-brainer' there.

So then, the fruit machine is far from dead as you appreciate of course, but it's a very far cry from what we'd actually consider being a 'traditional' fruit machine here in the UK. Can't say I shed a tear to be honest; in retrospect these were surely wasted years for me, and the nemesis of too many young men, House of the Rising Sun and all that malarky.


Don't get too excited with your own brilliance and toweringly impressive foresight Cavey, because the real story is some distance away from the conveniently revisionist account you've painted above.

Random machines were originally sneaked in through a legislative loophole (the infamous 'Section 16' machines), and as is ever the case with these things by the time the law caught up they were so well entrenched it was futile to try and stamp them out so instead the legislators had to work with the fact they couldn't be 'uninvented'. On top of that the original big selling point wasn't that they were random versus controlled, so much as they were offering a £500 jackpot as opposed to a £25 jackpot on a fruit machine at the time.

Moreover, whilst some traditional names such as Barcrest and JPM left the AWP market, others such as Bellfruit are still very successful, and new companies have entered the market such as Reflex, Betcom and G-Squared.

Yes the market for 'traditional' fruit machines is smaller than it used to be, but they're now sharing a finite market with random machines, which didn't exist before, so that's only to be expected - however the market is still big enough to sustain several companies which maintain their manufacturing presence in the UK, so they've hardly 'disappeared'.

As for random machines being successful online, these have been around since the mid-90s so pre-dated the appearance of random machines in arcades and bookies in the UK by many years. You'll find that most licensing jurisdictions require that all online games are random (where each game is independent and not influenced by past results), so the operators couldn't make controlled games even if they wanted to.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 14:56 
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Hearthly wrote:
Don't get too excited with your own brilliance and toweringly impressive foresight Cavey, because the real story is some distance away from the conveniently revisionist account you've painted above.


:D

Lulz. You honestly think I give a crap? I remember the conversations quite vividly; you were plain wrong then, and plain wrong now too, and now you're unsurprisingly completely ungracious in defeat with this talk of 'revisionist accounts' and all the rest, instead of (heaven forbid) actually giving your detractor(s) any credit for anything. Since when have I ever cared about being wrong and/or admitting as much, and if so why would I bother to make shit up in this one particular, and utterly inconsequential instance? (No wonder you hero-worship Stu so much; you two were made for each other IMO - he's "never wrong" either? Nose pushed out of joint, much?)

The thing is though, I hardly define myself for being right or wrong about fruit machines or any other similar trivia, because I've got enough going on in my life not to worry and obsess about such things. You reckon I didn't say X, or was wrong about Y? Hey, knock yourself out, it's all good with me, watch me care. I was just talking to JC about stuff we were both involved in way back when, but can't say I particularly miss those days and am glad to be well out of it all.

I can't tell you how great it is just to be able to walk into a pub with the missus, family or colleagues, and in the unlikely event of a fruit machine even being there at all, to simply and quite genuinely not even notice it (less still whichever low-life is hanging around waiting for some poor sod to feed "his" machine back up for him, whilst he sips his eighth half of diet coke or whatever).

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 15:36 
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Saturnalian wrote:
JohnCoffey wrote:
I live by the sea (less than 100ft) and in the many arcades around here there are either absolutely no fruit machines or they have a shady looking 'casino' area with a couple of AWPs in.

But some of the arcades have none whatsoever and the 10p 'kiddy robbing' fruits are all gone. It's all arcade games and cranes etc.


I went Blackpool once and was sickened that the arcades had been replaced with shit loads of fruit machines. I'm going back a couple of years mind. And the same with Skeg too.


Thankfully I have none of that to report at this end :)

I live in Aldwick, across the street from Bognor Regis (literally) and in Bognor's main arcades there are no fruit machines. It's all "throw the basketballs into the net" and "smack the rodent" type affairs in the middle (they're large old machines) and then maybe a 3 player Fast and Furious or Mariokart machine. Then there's loads of them rip off things with the "skill once in a hundred" light bulb games and cranes etc.

And oddly enough when you go into these arcades now they are deserted. None of the little scrots hanging around hawking and sharking the fruit machines. And it's pretty much the same everywhere I have been. Littlehampton also has Harbor Park which has been stripped of all but the "Shady casino area with a couple of Scorpion 5s" which is a tiny area with three machines in it, closed in and raised up from the main floor. My lady and I went to Pagham for a week away (LOL it's only 4 miles from where we live :D ) and the same had happened there. The last time I went in around 2009 it was stuffed to the gills with 10p fruitys so I took my camera in case anything emulate-able was there but nothing, not a sausage.

Same thing in Hampshire too. Every year my lady and I retreat the depths of the New Forest for a week (usually when it's cold so no one is there) and the same has happened there. All large interactive games and so on.

They all still have pushers in them though. My mum still saves up all of her 2ps for her grand niece, even though she's 17 now.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 17:19 
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JohnCoffey wrote:
Same thing in Hampshire too. Every year my lady and I retreat the depths of the New Forest for a week (usually when it's cold so no one is there) and the same has happened there. All large interactive games and so on.


The arcades on Hayling Island still have fruitmachines (mainly 10p £5 ones) and a small group of Pinball tables (in very poor condition) , and the last time I was over on the Isle of Wight they still had 'real' fruities (it was about 5 years ago but seeing a real live playable Smash'n'Grab (£4 version) was a bit of a shock :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 17:22 
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zaphod79 wrote:
JohnCoffey wrote:
Same thing in Hampshire too. Every year my lady and I retreat the depths of the New Forest for a week (usually when it's cold so no one is there) and the same has happened there. All large interactive games and so on.


The arcades on Hayling Island still have fruitmachines (mainly 10p £5 ones) and a small group of Pinball tables (in very poor condition) , and the last time I was over on the Isle of Wight they still had 'real' fruities (it was about 5 years ago but seeing a real live playable Smash'n'Grab (£4 version) was a bit of a shock :-)


I've only been over to Hayling once. Don't remember going into the arcade now, was a while ago. Selsey caravan site had some fruities in the club house but mostly red hot rolls and things like that, all very basic. Then again saying that that must have been four years ago now..

When I first moved to where I am Littlehampton used to have a few 10p machines. I used to play the Bear X as it was fun but they've all been removed.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 19:58 
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Morte wrote:
I'd honestly watch an hour long programme of people just dropping disks into the machine...it's hypnotic.

It's a trick of believing there's a vague element of skill involved and the cash always seems JUST ON THE EDGE and only one more coin away.

It's the 10p and 20 versions you want to watch out for, that gets expensive fast.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 14:53 
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Cavey wrote:
Hearthly wrote:
Don't get too excited with your own brilliance and toweringly impressive foresight Cavey, because the real story is some distance away from the conveniently revisionist account you've painted above.


:D

Lulz. You honestly think I give a crap?


284 words later...yes? ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 15:15 
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Trousers wrote:
Cavey wrote:
Hearthly wrote:
Don't get too excited with your own brilliance and toweringly impressive foresight Cavey, because the real story is some distance away from the conveniently revisionist account you've painted above.


:D

Lulz. You honestly think I give a crap?


284 words later...yes? ;)


Meh, I really don't, honest. :)
No, my days of getting hot under the collar about fruit machines and the like are well behind me; I couldn't give a rat's arse whether they're random, pre-determined, or even if Chopley himself is sat behind the glass deciding the "hi-lo" outcomes. Just felt the brief "for old times sake" urge, but it soon passed.

Nothing whatsoever to do with Chopley ( :) ) but man, I don't miss those days one little bit. It occurred to me yesterday that the date I actually stopped playing fruities was the date - pretty much to the fucking day - that I stopped not having a pot to piss in & my wife was having to 'carefully avoid' being asked out to join everyone else for lunch where she worked at the time (for lack of three bloody quid) etc., and now I/we live in rural, paid for splendor etc., without wishing to sound too immodest.

Fucking fruit machines, honestly. If there's any anger from me, that's where it's directed, so I apologise if I came across as a little raw before. Old wounds.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 15:41 
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Cavey wrote:
No, my days of getting hot under the collar about fruit machines and the like are well behind me

.......

Fucking fruit machines, honestly. If there's any anger from me, that's where it's directed, so I apologise if I came across as a little raw before. Old wounds.


You couldn't even make it to the end of the post there fella. Heh.

But yeah the rage I used to feel about them has entirely subsided these days and I did take some small pleasure in fleecing a couple on the Isle of Man ferry thanks to some tips from Hearthly.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 15:52 
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Without wanting to fuel any more arguments, is there a short summary of how fruit machines were/are rigged, and what's involved in getting your own back on them?


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 15:58 
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Dr Zoidberg wrote:
Without wanting to fuel any more arguments, is there a short summary of how fruit machines were/are rigged, and what's involved in getting your own back on them?


Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.


:D

I'll leave this one to Choppers I think, it's very much his hobby-horse.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 23:41 
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Dr Zoidberg wrote:
Without wanting to fuel any more arguments, is there a short summary of how fruit machines were/are rigged, and what's involved in getting your own back on them?


To save me writing it all out again I'll just link to the old site, which is still there :)

http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.c ... fruit1.htm

This was a nice one, you could add a diagnostic LED display to the machine (not entirely uncommon in and of itself as engineers had the ability to plug one in), but this one displayed a 'LIMIT' code to tell you when you were going to get cheated on the gamble.

http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.c ... dence5.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:38 
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Perfect, thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 15:13 
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Of course, a "guaranteed lose" hi-lo gamble is but one example of how a fruit machine could be "rigged" - there are many others, including far more important ones (to my mind at least). Also, whether or not the emulator actually proves this 'beyond reasonable doubt' is open to debate, as was said at the time, given that the emulation is not perfect and in fact this is obvious to anyone, most especially to those who have actually owned the physical machines being emulated and can thus directly compare them, as in my own case.

The inarguable decline of the "traditional pub fruit machine" is likely due to many factors, not least that no-one bar so-called "pro" players ceased to hardly ever come away in profit when playing them; ridiculous jackpot sizes well beyond what could be construed as 'amusement' also did not help - as well as likely just the whole stigma of being that saddo who spends his time pumping money into seedy boxes with flashing lights instead of drinking beer, talking to girls, eating a nice meal or whatever, i.e. the stuff that you're supposed to do when going to the pub.

If anyone seriously thinks this decline is anything to do with alleged unwinnable gambles (on a predetermined, non-random game), then they're mistaken; I suspect your average "change from a round" punter just got pissed off with losing EVERY time (because some 'pro' had raped the machine and left the code screaming for redress), and looking like a right twat in the process to boot.

Take away this 'normal' player base and you're left with the 'pros' and hard core addicts who can't stop playing even though they *know* they're gonna lose, and most pubs don't want either type of these punters (not least because neither types ever buy any fucking drinks and frequently cause trouble), and nor do they want to continually piss off their more mainstream customers come to that (especially when they're not even seeing any of the profits themselves).

Nothing says "I have no friends" like playing a fruit machine IMO. I know, I've been there.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 15:18 
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I'm amazed anyone would give a shit about fruit machines when we all have computers in our pockets now.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 15:23 
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Cavey wrote:
Of course, a "guaranteed lose" hi-lo gamble is but one example of how a fruit machine could be "rigged" - there are many others, including far more important ones (to my mind at least).

The inarguable decline of the "traditional pub fruit machine" is likely due to many factors, not least that no-one bar so-called "pro" players ceased to hardly ever come away in profit when playing them; ridiculous jackpot sizes well beyond what could be construed as 'amusement' also did not help - as well as likely just the whole stigma of being that saddo who spends his time pumping money into seedy boxes with flashing lights instead of drinking beer, talking to girls, eating a nice meal or whatever.

If anyone seriously thinks this decline is anything to do with alleged unwinnable gambles (on a predetermined, non-random game), then they're mistaken; I suspect your average "change from a round" punter just got pissed off with losing EVERY time (because some 'pro' had raped the machine and left the code screaming for redress), and looking like a twat in the process. Take away this 'normal' player base and you're left with the 'pros' and hard core addicts who can't stop playing even though they *know* they're gonna lose, and most pubs don't want either type of these punters, or to continually piss off their more mainstream customers when they're not even seeing the profits themselves.

Nothing says "I have no friends" like playing a fruit machine IMO. I know, I've been there.


I saw something the other day on another forum (for the life of me I can't remember where !) but it basically showed a fruit machine rom that would streak within £30 and pay out £200 or so from a rom reset.

So yes Cavey, you are corrrect, there are far more things going on in the game's code that are unfair and deliberately bait the player. In fact, many years ago it was found that "banks" involving cash or nudges that built up seemingly randomly were unfair and so they were removed from the machines. Action Bank and Flash Cash are two examples of this.

But let's face it there was far, far more going on. Things like "drop enough numbers to make it look like you will get the feature if you put another pound in" and so on. Line Up? fuck me that's about the oldest machine that player baits. It always drops you the right numbers for a "Hold them all guaranteed nudges or cash win". You put more money in, guess what? no fucking hold.

And I maintain, any one who could not see this nor work it out would be a bit thick at the very least.

Did it stop me playing? lmao, like fuck did it. If anything it just made me even more determined.

But at least I can say I knew what was going on. Even more so with the emulator and "play for real, for free" logistics.

Many years back now there used to be a Flash Cash in my local chippy. Flash Cash itself was said to be the holy grail, so woe betide any one who did not wait until the nudge bank was full, and for the machine to offer the Flash Cash feature. As I played it in the emulator I realised just how much money it took to do that. Usually between £20 and £35. And you got the feature and it fucked you off with £8 for example.

I played the fucking shit out of that machine in the emulator. I mean, eight hour sessions. And in the end I deduced that the machine was running right at around 50%, if that.

And these were supposed legends. Amazing memories of my childhood.... Sickening really.

I won't even get started on the "cute" range of Barcrest machines ! Smash 'n' Grab? that fucking thing was Satan's wolf in sheep's clothing. Can't even begin to tell you how many times I went into the chippy near my school and lost my ass and had to go fucking hungry until I got home at 4pm.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 15:24 
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LewieP wrote:
I'm amazed anyone would give a shit about fruit machines when we all have computers in our pockets now.


True, but we've had computers in our pockets for going on 10 years, possibly longer, but there seemed to be an awful lot more of them around even 5 years back? :shrug:

To be fair though, I guess it's a much more immersive experience playing an actual, fullsize machine, with real physical money, flashing lights and sounds & stuff, in a pub with your mates, as opposed to squinting at Rainbow Riches on your phone, hoping the Wifi doesn't bin out on you.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 15:31 
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@JC Totally agree mate. The "cheating hi-lo" thing is frankly trivial as compared to the whole gamut of other issues, some of which you mention. To my mind, the unbelievably widespread existence of so-called "emptiers", "manipulators" and "methods" (pick your euphemism) whereupon if a machine is 'played a certain [often obscure] way', you'd come up trumps, was what did it for me.

Especially where in many cases, this apparently meant the machine had to 'go on the suck' to make up for it all, and mugs like me 'without the know-how' were dutifully providing this function from my wife's lunch money and kids' clothes budget.

Don't get me wrong, I blame no-one bar myself for my own past addictions and weaknesses; life's about choices. But man, I do resent the fact that these things were apparently 'bent' and for me, that meant I was playing them on an entirely false "these games are sophisticated and computer controlled to prevent cheating" premise.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 15:38 
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Cavey wrote:

True, but we've had computers in our pockets for going on 10 years, possibly longer, but there seemed to be an awful lot more of them around even 5 years back? :shrug:


The pocket compute rthing really is since the iphone (8 years old, but began to domingate from 2009/2010), and the fruit machine renters would have nmoticed the effect after a few years, so seems not weird that int he last five year they really started to dissapear./..


( here in the Netherlands they are forbidden in snackbars and most pubs btw)

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 15:47 
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romanista wrote:
[The pocket compute rthing really is since the iphone

You didn't have a phone before the iPhone?

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 15:49 
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Cavey wrote:
@JC Totally agree mate. The "cheating hi-lo" thing is frankly trivial as compared to the whole gamut of other issues, some of which you mention. To my mind, the unbelievably widespread existence of so-called "emptiers", "manipulators" and "methods" (pick your euphemism) whereupon if a machine is 'played a certain [often obscure] way', you'd come up trumps, was what did it for me.

Especially where in many cases, this apparently meant the machine had to 'go on the suck' to make up for it all, and mugs like me 'without the know-how' were dutifully providing this function from our wife's lunch money and kids' clothes budget.

Don't get me wrong, I blame no-one bar myself for my own past addictions and weaknesses; life's about choices. But man, I do resent the fact that these things were apparently 'bent' and for me, that meant I was playing them on an entirely false "these games are sophisticated and computer controlled to prevent cheating" premise.


Thing is mate we've known this for a really, really long time. We know that bent and dodgy coders would put emptiers in and then sell the information to their mates and this is going on at a code level by the guy making the machine !

At one point there was real evidence that a coder working for one of the companies was actually sacked for doing this.

That just about sums the gambling industry up for me. A couple of years back my mother (bless her sweet heart) bought me a book about London's East End and all of the criminals involved in it going way, way back. Fruit machines were originally designed by criminals for use at side shows at horse races. They had numerous ways of fleecing people. But if you really think about it if that was how it all started how on earth was it ever going to be fair?

Ironically Hearthly also knows full well about these sorts of activities and at one point was a "Pro" who used to go around emptying machines with this bent info he had managed to procure.

So how on earth did he not understand that fruit machines were robbing bastards? he knew that some poor cunt other than him was going in and filling these machines up blindly for him to come along and empty, leaving them as you say in "suck mode".

So no, I don't believe Fair Play had anything to do with making machines fair. The sticker even pointed out that there will be gambles that you will lose due to the machine being a cunt. But did it actually stop the machine being a cunt? and did it stop people playing the machines? of course not, they already knew this years ago.

But with gambling (much like drug addiction and alcoholism) you forget. You deliberately forget anything even remotely related to sense and you become unreasonable. People who take drugs know the dangers. They know what it does to them. Same goes for alcoholics. Doesn't stop them though.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 15:51 
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Grim... wrote:
romanista wrote:
[The pocket compute rthing really is since the iphone

You didn't have a phone before the iPhone?

Mobile gaming was shit before like 2007/8.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 16:12 
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LewieP wrote:
I'm amazed anyone would give a shit about fruit machines when we all have computers in our pockets now.

Of course, the mobile games that make the most money all use tactics inherited from sources like fruit machines. Plus ca change.

Edit -- in case you don't know some of the hair-raising stuff freemium games studios allegedly get up to.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 16:20 
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Just for the record my half of the campaign here on the IOM was done a lot less publicly but also submitted a far wider range of complaints about the behaviour of the machines.

Amongst these were indeed things like streaks (which effectively circumvented the legislated jackpots, at the time £25 jackpot machines could streak to £100 in hi-tech form or as much as £200 in lo-tech form when manipulated), I treated blocks and unwinnable gambles as two sides of the same coin which meant that for an average player it was literally impossible to win a jackpot most of the time, and so on.

(I've still got the letters I submitted, IIRC there were five main complaints listed.)

Stu decided to go balls-out on the unwinnable hi/lo gambles side of things because he felt that was the easiest problem to convey, whereas I was going more along the lines of them being fundamentally bent and unsuitable for their stated role as 'amusement with prizes'.

And yes at the time of the campaign I was making good coin out of the fruities (and continued to do so) so was arguably pissing on my own parade, but it still seemed like the right thing to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 16:28 
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I'm sure everyone here knows this already, but of course the kind of fruit machines one plays virtually on phones at casino sites (or as actual, physical machines at bookmakers for that matter) are a relatively modern phenomenon most especially in the UK - they're random, not predetermined controlled.

As a result, these random games rely on the pure mathematical certainties of chance, so much so that payouts of up to 97% can be offered safe in the knowledge that the machine will reliably yield its 3% profit margin to the operator over a large number of credits, just as surely as a fair roulette wheel.

From a player's perspective (and most especially the casual player, i.e. 90% or more of the total player base), a machine that (a) pays back 95% instead of 70% and more importantly (b) said payback and jackpot/large win potential is equally available to all, the machines cannot cheat because they don't even know what they did last spin, is always going to be more attractive. So it's hardly surprising that the traditional pub fruit machine, with its stingy payouts and shonky coding that favours the enlightened, isn't exactly in vogue anymore.

About the only people who are pissed off by this are 'pro' players who don't get to skank other punters anymore, and perhaps pub operators for missing out on any fruit machine profits they used to rake off (providing of course they didn't have an 'emptiable' machine, in which case they would hardly miss licking their wounds at the hands of the 'pro' player, just like the rest of us).


Going back to random machines, yes, Vegas has had the traditional "one armed bandit" since time immemorial, no-one is suggesting there's anything new about that. However, 'modern' random AWPs with their features, bonus rounds, gambles and trails, even skill games in some cases, *are* very much a new phenomenon and akin the pub fruit machines in terms of content and play, if not as regards how they work, their vastly improved payouts or 'level playing field' characteristics.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 17:05 
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LewieP wrote:
Grim... wrote:
romanista wrote:
[The pocket compute rthing really is since the iphone

You didn't have a phone before the iPhone?

Mobile gaming was shit before like 2007/8.

Darkest Fear was excellent, fool.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 18:48 
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JohnCoffey wrote:
....Flash Cash are two examples of this.


Ah, MPU4 Flash Cash, what an utter shitbiscuit turd of a machine that was; one of a whole family of piss-taking Barcrests of the late-80s. Remember the Trade mag advert someone posted on one of the forums years later - a couple of burly security guards having to lift the cashbox out for oodles of profit for the operator... still, if nothing else, it's at least a fabulous looking machine. All that glitters sure ain't gold...

Jogged my memory this; some geezer called 'Fruitworkz' did a fantastic emulated layout for this very game, and some old tosser reviewed it...

ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
Ah yes, where were we? What year is it again? :)

Yup, it’s been a while, my dear readers, but heck, there’s nothing to say we can’t all do the “FME thing” once more and party like its 2003 all over again. Hell, if a scene legend can start re-releasing again, all these years after the fact, then I’m damn well dusting off my (fond) memories of the era; “Ikon Boards”, Line Up iterations, “Skizzo” and “Debate Central” to name but a few!

So then, let’s get down to the nitty gritty here; the WWC spotlight turns irresolutely to that late 80s Barcrest MPU4 stalwart that is Flash Cash.

This machine needs no introduction; these things were ubiquitous in surely every pub, club and arcade back in the day. They were everywhere. A (slight) evolution from the first of this genre, All Cash Advance, this design iteration also features the in-play “Action Nudges” subsequently so oft-copied by the likes of Ace and JPM with their contemporary efforts (you may recall my remarks about old ACE Poundstretcher and its “Microdot Pot”).

Aside from the Action Nudges (awarded at first word fill as a “sub feature”), it’s all fairly standard Barcrest MPU4 fare, which is to say it’s a gorgeous looking machine. In particular, that huge matrix of notes dominating the top glass – as disingenuous as it undoubtedly was (the note climb was not wrap-around so you could only ever win just one line of notes per feature game, more on this later), was just fantastic in attract mode. Who could resist punting a few quid in pursuit of such a prize?

As mentioned, the Action Nudges – accrued “randomly” over time (and much money input…) – were offered upon completion of the “Flash” word-fill, off reel numbers (or reel-awarded “?” skill chance). The features proper were doled out upon full word-fill; all had a repeat chance (with the sole exception of Flash Cash, if all four notes - £4 in tokens – was achieved in one hit, for some bizarre reason).

The features themselves were actually quite entertaining in concept, albeit there was no skill involved. “Super Win” is basically a choose-a-win affair, “Mystery” is a reel stepper, “3-2-1 Climb” is an enhanced coin climber off the coin matrix, and “Line Up” is a join-the-lit coins climber, stalwart of many other Barcrest titles. All of them could pay Flash Cash or Jackpot (and occasionally did so), and all could repeat.

The top feature, Flash Cash, gave the player a shot at ONE of the four note lines in the top matrix, with the chance of note climb. Theoretically as little as £1 could be achieved, but in fairness there was almost invariably £2 on offer – and occasionally £4 in cash (via note climb) or £4 in tokens from the off. Unless token JP was awarded, a repeat chance was also given, meaning a theoretically unlimited upper prize value, though I never, ever saw anything higher than £8, despite many, many hundreds of pounds of play.

So far then, we have a polished Barcrest machine which looks and sounds fantastic, has relatively innovative, attractive features – all of which repeat – and nudges via the ‘Action Nudges’ which were seemingly under player control and were the principal route to the big prizes and feature awards. OK, the WWC First Law was not obeyed – there was no feature/nudge exchange or other ‘out’ for small wins to keep things interesting (and in fairness, the actual reel win cash gamble was pretty awful) – so it really doesn’t sound too bad, no?

Wrong.

This is, without doubt, the worst machine I have ever reviewed. As beautiful as Andy’s DX certainly is, it is, unfortunately, like Hit The Top before it, another example of a tragic waste of his incredible talent.

Let me explain. We here surely understand that all the fantastic polish in the world and even great design does NOT a great machine make – in fact, not even necessarily a GOOD machine. The crimes of Flash Cash are heinous and many, but I think quite the worst of them all is the fact that all the ingredients for a fine machine were present and correct. However, GAMEPLAY and PROFILE count for an awful lot more than a pretty face – and believe you me, this machine is the tightest of them all. I mean seriously, did *anyone* ever walk away from one of these still wearing his shirt, let alone in significant profit…?

The deeply cynical, appalling nature of this machine cannot be over-stated. Prime among these has to be the crime against the player that is “Action Nudges”; was there ever a more disingenuous, blatant player-baiting device ever conceived? Time and again you’d be chasing and chasing these, the machine sucking down pounds and pounds before eventually giving Flash Cash off the reels - £2 with no repeat – only to start the whole stinking process again with another 2-3 nudges close to your final credit. Man, I used to see this *so* often in the wild.

Even if someone DID leave a couple of nudges in the bank, it wouldn’t be long before some other mug turned up with his bag of pound coins, thinking himself “lucky” that someone had been foolish enough to leave him a machine ready to pay. Of course, once the bank (eventually) got up to 5-6 nudges, usually a couple of quid later at least, you were committed, but you’d then have to pump another few quid in, perhaps getting a few useless features and derisory reel wins along the way, before you too were given a £2 no repeat. And then the stinking process would start all over again, the machine sucking down tenner after tenner.

I don’t normally bother with stuff like this, but it’s interesting to note the payout% of this machine, as emulated. I don’t know what it’s set at – probably around 75-80% or thereabouts, but I’m buggered if I can get it above the mid 50s. At virtually no point could I ever have been significantly “up” on the machine; it is a tight and “controlled” as any machine has ever been.

In my critique of Ace Poundstretcher, I mentioned that at least in the case of the Barcrest machines that it sought to (badly) emulate, the Action Nudges *had* to be awarded, even if a high prize value was in range, and unlike the Ace machine’s awful Microdot Pot affair. However, as it turns out, even this isn’t completely true – the “?” *should* give at least the half word fill skillstop if Action Nudges are present and a reel win is in range – but it doesn’t always, most especially if a big win (that the machine has decided it isn’t “ready” to pay) is available. Instead you’ll get the “stopper” which WILL lose, every single chuffing time. Gah.

Yes, the Action Nudges are indeed one key aspect, but like I've said, the very worst thing about the machine is that actually, it COULD have been a very good – possibly even a *great* game, if only it wasn't so ridiculously tight and controlled? If the gameplay was loosened off (and made at least reasonably paying); if the Flash Cash at least went a bit mad a la Castle once in a blue moon; if the features repeated more often – and meaningfully. If, if, if…

I could go on here; I could talk further about the pounds and pounds that I pumped into these machines, losing EVERY time; the Barcrest operator adverts at the time which showed blokes dressed as security guards heaving moneyboxes laden with too many pound coins to handle and all the rest; comparison of this machine to its vastly better immediate forebears, even from the same manufacturer. Thing is though, we all know the score here. Suffice to say there can be no question that this machine is a “sinner” and many, many times over at that - but is it *so* bad as to warrant a ZERO out of ten, and all that this entails?

It’s not something that I take lightly; this machine, for all I know, might be on someone’s wish list, or they might even own one. It’s not as though it is entirely without merit – far from it - for the reasons I’ve discussed. It is a very pretty machine; there’re some great ideas in there and above all, it’s a polished product so typical of Barcrest of this era, streets ahead of the other manufacturers in this respect. One only needs to browse the restoration pages of this forum to appreciate which machines were built to last. I mean seriously, can this machine truly be as bad as Hit The Top?

My judgement is this: this machine truly embodies everything that I hate about fruit machines and the cynical way that players were, and still are, exploited. There is nothing remotely ‘fair’ about it; everything is designed to suck the last ten penny piece out of the hapless punter and still have him wishing if only he had more cash. Whilst we all accept that, ultimately, that is the goal of every “one-armed bandit” that ever graced the arcade, this goes way, way beyond that and the balance – if that is the correct word – is vastly too skewed away from the player here.

In the end, there can be no doubt that this truly dire contraption is fully deserving of such a fate.

So then, Saint or Sinner...?



My Lords, Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a new "champion".

WWC Machine Rating: 0/10 Arch Demon (WORST EVER MACHINE)


Eeh, fun times huh. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 22:08 
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Cavey wrote:
Jogged my memory this; some geezer called 'Fruitworkz' did a fantastic emulated layout for this very game, and some old tosser reviewed it...


I assume you know that Fruitworkz is JC ?


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 22:48 
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Yep that was the joke. :)
(And what a great layout that was, too)

Ooh, FME on Beex.... Got ta be better than bitching about :attitude: mind.

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You are using the 'Ted' forum. Bill doesn't really exist any more. Bogus!
Want to help out with the hosting / advertising costs? That's very nice of you.
Are you on a mobile phone? Try http://beex.co.uk/m/
RIP, Owen.

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