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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 16:04 
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I didn't eat that much! Well, I don't remember eating that much, which is the same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 16:06 
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Sure it's arbitrary, it's just a number measurement. However, on average, people who fit in the healthy range are healthier, and on average, people are average...

If your BMI is outside of the healthy range, and you can honestly look at your lifestyle and say why, maybe you do a huge amount of exercise, maybe you have a lot of muscle mass etc... then no problem. However, for the vast majority of people that isn't the case, and the reason why they are above the healthy range is that they are lazy fuckers (myself included).

The rugby player argument against BMI is amusing, so what if it doesn't work for rugby players? Most people who argue that have a quick game with the lads once a fortnight, and spend the rest of the time sitting behind a desk eating mars bars, but it's ok because they are rugby players...


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 16:09 
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Trooper wrote:
Sure it's arbitrary, it's just a number measurement. However, on average, people who fit in the healthy range are healthier, and on average, people are average...


Actually, on average virtually nobody is average given that we're talking about mean and not mode here.

Like I said, the outcome of tracking using BMI is valid. It's still bad science.

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 16:10 
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Craster wrote:
Heh. Maybe the metric for fitness should therefore be "get out of those trousers".


+1

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 16:12 
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Craster wrote:
Trooper wrote:
Sure it's arbitrary, it's just a number measurement. However, on average, people who fit in the healthy range are healthier, and on average, people are average...


Actually, on average virtually nobody is average given that we're talking about mean and not mode here.



Actually, healthy BMI is a range, precisely due to that reason. It covers the greatest number of healthy body types in the bell curve.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 16:15 
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Using a range doesn't matter. It still says that for any two people in the world who are the same height, if one has a lower weight than the other, that person is healthier. It's a convenience, because you can't measure 'health'.

Once again - it's perfectly valid for giving yourself a weight loss target. But it's still bad science.

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 16:17 
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Craster wrote:
Looking back on it, I ate fuck all at the BBQ. 2 bits of pastrami, 1 bbq pork skewer, and a burger that I well overcooked and only ate half of.

That always happens when you cook, though. I had one of your burgers and one of Mali's, some chicken and some pastrami, I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 16:18 
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I had some steak, a burger, a spicy lamb burger, some pork fat skewers and sole pastrami.

And all the wine.

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 16:18 
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Craster wrote:
Using a range doesn't matter. It still says that for any two people in the world who are the same height, if one has a lower weight than the other, that person is healthier. It's a convenience, because you can't measure 'health'.



No it doesn't, it says for any two people in the world, as long as they are both within the healthy range, then they are a lot less likely to have health complications due to weight.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 16:21 
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Trooper wrote:
Craster wrote:
Using a range doesn't matter. It still says that for any two people in the world who are the same height, if one has a lower weight than the other, that person is healthier. It's a convenience, because you can't measure 'health'.



No it doesn't, it says for any two people in the world, as long as they are both within the healthy range, then they are a lot less likely to have health complications due to weight.

Apart from Singaporeans, who have different BMI bands.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 16:23 
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Of course, you shouldn't worry about your weight at all and concentrate more on how you feel.

Man.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 16:34 
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Trooper wrote:
No it doesn't, it says for any two people in the world, as long as they are both within the healthy range, then they are a lot less likely to have health complications due to weight.


And if the two straddle the healthy/overweight line?

Squirt wrote:
Apart from Singaporeans, who have different BMI bands.


Pretty much every country does - because it's arbitrary.

DavPaz wrote:
Of course, you shouldn't worry about your weight at all and concentrate more on how you feel.

Man.


What if I feel hungry?

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 16:36 
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Squirt wrote:
Trooper wrote:
Craster wrote:
Using a range doesn't matter. It still says that for any two people in the world who are the same height, if one has a lower weight than the other, that person is healthier. It's a convenience, because you can't measure 'health'.



No it doesn't, it says for any two people in the world, as long as they are both within the healthy range, then they are a lot less likely to have health complications due to weight.

Apart from Singaporeans, who have different BMI bands.


Aye, because Asians are more predisposed to diabetes, so their healthy range is different.

I think I know Crasters difficulty with BMI, he keeps referring to it as science. It isn't, it's statistics.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 16:36 
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No, I keep referring to it as bad science. Statistics pretty much is bad science :)

And that's my point. If your way of measuring health isn't science, then you need to find a way that is science. Because otherwise you're only catering for those people who are statistically average.

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 16:42 
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Trooper wrote:
Aye, because Asians are more predisposed to diabetes, so their healthy range is different.
Turns out that's because they eat heavily-sweetened rice three times a day. Funny that.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 16:43 
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Craster wrote:
No, I keep referring to it as bad science. Statistics pretty much is bad science :)

And that's my point. If your way of measuring health isn't science, then you need to find a way that is science. Because otherwise you're only catering for those people who are statistically average.


And my point is, if the stats show that if you are in the healthy range, then you are less likely to have health complications due to weight than some one who is above the healthy range. What better measure can you get other than what actually happens to people at whatever weight they are when it happens?

And most people are statistically close to average, that's kind the point of average. Come on dude, you know how bell curves work :)


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 16:52 
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Trooper wrote:
Craster wrote:
No, I keep referring to it as bad science. Statistics pretty much is bad science :)

And that's my point. If your way of measuring health isn't science, then you need to find a way that is science. Because otherwise you're only catering for those people who are statistically average.


And my point is, if the stats show that if you are in the healthy range, then you are less likely to have health complications due to weight than some one who is above the healthy range. What better measure can you get other than what actually happens to people at whatever weight they are when it happens?


You're statistically less likely. Not less likely. They are very different.

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And most people are statistically close to average, that's kind the point of average. Come on dude, you know how bell curves work :)


Sure I do. However, if you're going to hold up a measure to someone that's been derived from a bell curve, it's incumbent on you as a health professional to work out where that person fits on the bell curve, no? Imagine if that's how blood donation worked - most people statistically are blood type O+, so we'll just give everyone O+ blood when they arrive in hospital needing an infusion.

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 17:01 
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Blood is a completely different argument that is treatment, not prevention.

When you come to treat someone you have to be specific, when it is about reducing the chances of needing to treat and prevention, then it is perfectly fine to be generic.

I don't know how to break this to you dude, everyone isn't a special snowflake, there are trends in individuals that have direct correlation to the expectation of poor health in the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 17:06 
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My BMI is 18.5, and I don't seem to be able to do much about that.

I anticipate this will change pretty rapidly once I reach a certain age.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 17:08 
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GazChap wrote:
My BMI is 18.5, and I don't seem to be able to do much about that.

I anticipate this will change pretty rapidly once I reach a certain age.


Up until my early thirties I was 10st 6lbs no matter what I did. The past couple of years I haven't changed anything, yet the weight has started to pile on.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 17:13 
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Trooper wrote:
Blood is a completely different argument that is treatment, not prevention.

When you come to treat someone you have to be specific, when it is about reducing the chances of needing to treat and prevention, then it is perfectly fine to be generic.


I got told that the treatment for having high blood pressure was to lower my BMI.

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 17:16 
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Anyway - my point is that the world I like to live in, you don't have a nebulous definition of 'health' that is based on ignoring large amounts of contributory factors, because it's easier to generalise rather than analyse. I can't think of any other aspect of healthcare that does it. It's the 'have you tried turning it off and on again?' of medicine.

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 17:19 
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Craster wrote:
Trooper wrote:
Blood is a completely different argument that is treatment, not prevention.

When you come to treat someone you have to be specific, when it is about reducing the chances of needing to treat and prevention, then it is perfectly fine to be generic.


I got told that the treatment for having high blood pressure was to lower my BMI.


Indeed, because being overweight is a high contributory factor to high blood pressure.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 17:21 
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Of course it is. But it's treatment, not prevention. Which is the opposite of what you said.

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 17:22 
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Craster wrote:
Anyway - my point is that the world I like to live in, you don't have a nebulous definition of 'health' that is based on ignoring large amounts of contributory factors, because it's easier to generalise rather than analyse. I can't think of any other aspect of healthcare that does it. It's the 'have you tried turning it off and on again?' of medicine.


When the hospitals are literally full of people who are in there for complaints that are directly related to being overweight, then telling overweight people they need to lose weight is pretty obviously the right thing to do.
When you take A&E out of the equation, the vast majority of people in Bedford hospital are there due to issues directly related to being overweight.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 17:24 
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Trooper wrote:
Craster wrote:
Anyway - my point is that the world I like to live in, you don't have a nebulous definition of 'health' that is based on ignoring large amounts of contributory factors, because it's easier to generalise rather than analyse. I can't think of any other aspect of healthcare that does it. It's the 'have you tried turning it off and on again?' of medicine.


When the hospitals are literally full of people who are in there for complaints that are directly related to being overweight, then telling overweight people they need to lose weight is pretty obviously the right thing to do.
When you take A&E out of the equation, the vast majority of people in Bedford hospital are there due to issues directly related to being overweight.


That's totally fine. What I dislike is the fact that you take something plainly obvious "You're overweight, you need to lose weight", and dress it up in pseudoscience by doing some maths, creating a graph out of it, and pretending it contains absolute values of any merit.

I've not once objected to weight loss as a health improvement mechanism.

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 17:25 
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Craster wrote:
That's totally fine. What I dislike is the fact that you take something plainly obvious "You're overweight, you need to lose weight", and dress it up in pseudoscience by doing some maths, creating a graph out of it, and pretending it contains absolute values of any merit.


Hey, I made a job out of that for 6 and a half years! And probably am doing that now.

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 17:28 
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It's only the same as having a recommended maximum number of units of alcohol to drink or minimum amount of vegetables. It gives most people a rough guide to go on. Also it's a lot easier for a doctor to tell someone that they're too fat and have a chart to back them up, especially since the chart will be correct most of the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 17:30 
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markg wrote:
It's only the same as having a recommended maximum number of units of alcohol to drink or minimum amount of vegetables. It gives most people a rough guide to go on. Also it's a lot easier for a doctor to tell someone that they're too fat and have a chart to back them up, especially since the chart will be correct most of the time.


Bingo, that's the point, plus it makes a good goal for people, and is backed up based on statistics of actual people.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 17:30 
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Craster wrote:
Of course it is. But it's treatment, not prevention. Which is the opposite of what you said.


Dude, your doc was saying you were fat, but being polite ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 17:31 
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markg wrote:
It's only the same as having a recommended maximum number of units of alcohol to drink or minimum amount of vegetables. It gives most people a rough guide to go on. Also it's a lot easier for a doctor to tell someone that they're too fat and have a chart to back them up, especially since the chart will be correct most of the time.


Because I'm a nerd though, the chart makes me angry about what he's saying. I'd rather he just said "You could do with losing a couple of stone, fatty", because that's unequivocably true. Maybe you should just have to tick a box when you register with a GP that says "Does bad science with pretty pictures make you a) trusting or b) angry?" then the doctor would know the right approach to take.

Good point on the alcohol/fruit and veg though.

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 17:34 
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I've heard tales of GPs asking a lady if they are at the appointment due to maternity issues f they think that it is going to end up being a weight issue. Next time they come in, they are a fair bit slimmerer.

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 17:36 
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Yeah, people really don't like being called fat, even by a doctor.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 17:37 
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In other news. I'm fucking hungry :D Did 30 mins on the exercise bike though, so yay me! I'm not sure about joining the gym, I have the bike I can use at home and I want to start the 5k running thing too, both of which are free and easy to do. Might see how I go for the next couple of weeks then decide if I need the gym or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 17:43 
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Trooper wrote:
Yeah, people really don't like being called fat, even by a doctor.


I think the biggest problem is the huge amount of TV programmes like Supersize Vs Superskinny and Biggest Loser and things. I don't agree with the way they are presented at all, as it is more a "Laugh at the fatties doing press-ups" than anything greatly constructive. Also, the huge amount of copy in women's magazines about "X hasn't shed her baby weight and is upset about it" and "Y loses weight on new diet plan!". But that's a rant for another day.

Behavioural changes are the best for long term weight loss, not fad diets nor joining a gym in my world.

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 17:49 
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MaliA wrote:
Behavioural changes are the best for long term weight loss, not fad diets nor joining a gym in my world.


Indeed, my plan is to diet control to get me down to the weight I want, while exercising to get fit mainly but also to help the weight loss along a bit. Then once I hit my weight to go back to eating what I want (within reason) but keep up the exercise regime and see if that allows me to maintain. If not, then a bit more diet control, but not as extreme as the current weight loss diet control (which isn't extreme at all really, 1750 calories a day is my current target, which should see me losing a pound a week)


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 18:15 
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Trooper wrote:
Yeah, people really don't like being called fat, even by a doctor.


Those pregnant women have no sense of humour.

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 18:34 
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devilman wrote:
Trooper wrote:
Yeah, people really don't like being called fat, even by a doctor.


Those pregnant women have no sense of humour.


More than the ones that aren't pregnant though.

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 19:00 
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Trooper wrote:
BMI as a goal works for everyone, if your goal is to be a healthy weight. Which for pretty much everyone, it is.
However if you are training your body for a specific event other than just being healthy, then it doesn't work.

I'm with the Paz. Forget BMI; forget weight.

You can be light and unfit, and fatty.

You noticed you're not getting any younger, and that clothes don't fit quite correctly. So exercise and improve your diet til you feel/look as good as you want, then do enough to maintain that. Your t-shirts don't say 'for 11-stone people' on them.

I don't know how much I weigh, and I don't care. This is because weight has very little to do with fitness, fat/muscle balance or my happiness.

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 19:04 
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1750 is pretty damned minimal, you'll end up depressed, especially if you're doing cardio.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 19:04 
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I have lost about 2.5 stone since last October and went from a size 16 to a size 12 or a 30" waist although i think these jeans are getting a bit big now. I decided I needed to lose weight when I saw a photo of myself at a party last August and I was shocked at how I looked.
To lose weight, I didn't want to attempt unrealistic or unsustainable things. I bought a pedometer off amazon that measured step count and distance travelled as well as estimating calories and fat burned. I walk about a lot at work (averaging 15,000 steps) and so I tried to make sure I did 18,000+ every day. This meant that if I had a particularly slow day at work, I just took the dog for a longer walk when I got home and on weekends I made sure we went out for a few hours walking.

For my eating, I paid attention to portion size and to fat and calorie content. I am still too generous with portion sizes for things like pasta and rice but I more strict now. When I buy a sandwich, I would always go fr a Marks and Spencers BLT. After my first week of wearing the pedometer I realised that a BLT contains more fat than my pedometer estimates I burn from an average days walking. So suddenly I resented the BLT and choose more heathy options.

When planning meals, instead of making chicken with pancetta and stuffed with mozzarella, I made turkey escalopes in breadcrumbs flavoured with cayenne. So basically I was still eating really tasty food, just trying to be more intelligent with my choices. I cut out full fat fizzy juice which was hard as I hate diet but once I'd gone about a month with no fizzy juice at all, I found that actually diet was alright and now I couldn't go back. I also tried to limit the amount of beer, wine or cider I drank and stick mainly to a spirit with low cal mixer, like gin and slimline tonic. That made a huge difference as well.

At work, I got weighed every week (through choice!) and was losing 2lb-4lbs every week, literally by just doing what I've mentioned. There was no other difference in exercise at all. Getting weighed was a real motivator because it showed how much of a difference I was making but it quickly came to stop mattering because my clothes were hanging of me and the difference was visible. I've not been weighed since about Feb so couldn't tell you what I am now, I just now I'm still improving because of the way clothes fit.

I still would like to tone up a bit and so I'm planning to join a gym in the next month or so. Ideally I'd like to have a fairly toned stomach which is something I never had even when I was young and stupidly skinny. It's amazing the difference this has made to my lifestyle and my happiness though; we go on holiday on Wednesay and it's the first holiday I've been on in ten years. Went shopping for clothes last week and was fairly pleased with the reflection I was seeing in the mirror. Got lots of nice tops, shorts and even a bikini and the style of things I could choose was much wider because I'm now happy with my figure.

That brings me onto another thing though. At a size 12, I am not fat and I'm fairly healthy. I have quite good body confidence and I'm happy enough in myself and have a wonderful life. However, if I was fifteen years old and anything but a size eight, I can imagine a shopping trip would be enough to reduce you to tears. Some of the clothes and styles that the high street are selling are ridiculous and it makes me feel sorry for all the young girls. At least when I was that age, combat touters and baggy jeans were in style and shops like Topshop had a wide range of sort of boyfriend fit jeans for women. Now though it all seems to be designed to show off as much flesh as possible, or if you are covered up then it is skin tight.
It's a real shame and I wish this obsession with slutty clothes and fixation on celebrity figures would stop.

Anyway, I digress. Trooper I think you are doing the right thing, you really don't want to let it go for ages if you'd rather be healthier because I did and it really shocked me when I realised. In my defence I had other issues that were contributing to a lack of confidence but even still, I'm glad I finally acted and I don't like calling this diet because that suggests that at some point I will stop. I won't, I've changed my lifestyle now and I'm so pleased I did.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 19:07 
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ugvm'er at heart...

Joined: 4th Mar, 2010
Posts: 22256
BikNorton wrote:
1750 is pretty damned minimal, you'll end up depressed, especially if you're doing cardio.


That's 1750 if I do no exercise, I can add whatever I burn off onto that.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 19:08 
SupaMod
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BikNorton wrote:
1750 is pretty damned minimal, you'll end up depressed, especially if you're doing cardio.


I did 1400, for three weeks. It was brutal, but it's given me exactly the motivation I needed - to whit, "I never fucking want to have to spend 3 weeks eating sweet dick all again".

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 19:13 
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Sitting balls-back folder

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 10065
speaking of which, can you bung the pastrami marinade/sauce recipe somewhere?


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 19:23 
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Joined: 27th Sep, 2009
Posts: 876
I managed to lose a stone in one month just by taking note of calorie and fat content in food and drinks and reducing or eliminating the intake of those accordingly. No extra exercise either.

One more stone to go to get to my preferred weight.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 19:28 
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EvilTrousers

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
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Another vote for ignoring BMI here. A couple of years ago I got down to within my ideal BMI and everyone was concerned I had some kind of debilitating illness that I wouldn't talk about.

I got on the scales at the gym this afternoon and I'm under 14 stone for the first time in a while and that's been through using MyFitnesspal and having no car. It's a two mile trek into the office and if I do that twice a day that's over 400 calories burnt off just from getting to and from work. I'm weight training as well but the main difference seems to be the walking.

My car has been fucked for nearly two months now - argument with Mazda and then CarCraft as to who is going to pay for the £2k repair - and I'm not even sure I want it back. Apart from when it's pissing down of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 19:28 
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ugvm'er at heart...

Joined: 4th Mar, 2010
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Craster wrote:
BikNorton wrote:
1750 is pretty damned minimal, you'll end up depressed, especially if you're doing cardio.


I did 1400, for three weeks. It was brutal, but it's given me exactly the motivation I needed - to whit, "I never fucking want to have to spend 3 weeks eating sweet dick all again".


For example, today I have had.
Waffles and maple syrup
Salad with feta and chorizo
Nectarine
Ice lolly
Chicken curry with rice and naan.

All for 1950 calories, minus 230 calories for the exercise bike and bang on target.


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 19:49 
SupaMod
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Commander-in-Cheese

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Posts: 49232
BikNorton wrote:
speaking of which, can you bung the pastrami marinade/sauce recipe somewhere?


:DD

Will do. I made it up, so it'll take me a while to work out what measurements I used.

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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 19:49 
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Trousers wrote:
Another vote for ignoring BMI here. A couple of years ago I got down to within my ideal BMI and everyone was concerned I had some kind of debilitating illness that I wouldn't talk about.



I look at the BMI as a rough guide only, but that aside it's pretty accurate for me as I KNEW I was putting on weight, particularly around the waist and upwards. At least my trousers aren't as tight now, or my old shirts! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Middle Age Spread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 19:56 
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EvilTrousers

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 3073
Four_Candles wrote:
Trousers wrote:
Another vote for ignoring BMI here. A couple of years ago I got down to within my ideal BMI and everyone was concerned I had some kind of debilitating illness that I wouldn't talk about.



I look at the BMI as a rough guide only, but that aside it's pretty accurate for me as I KNEW I was putting on weight, particularly around the waist and upwards. At least my trousers aren't as tight now, or my old shirts! :)


The jeans I wore last year are no good to me at all, the jeans I bought 3 months ago need a belt. It's probably my best measure of how much I have lost weight.

That and deliberately finding people I haven't seen for a couple of months and seeing if they say anything. Mainly they say "Oooh you look a bit less like Homer Simpson than you used to" but it's all progress innit?

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