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Kickstarter
https://www.beexcellenttoeachother.com:443/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8301
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Author:  WTB [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:10 ]
Post subject:  Kickstarter

Okay, there are mixed opinions on this forum about paid betas and stuff - something I sometimes like the idea of and sometimes think "cheeky bastards", but surely this has to be taking the piss?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=462470

As far as I understand it, this "Kickstarter" thing is essentially a crowd-sourcing money thingy. Tim Schafer is accepting your money to make a new adventure game. Yay! But hang on. Look at this:

Quote:
Pledge $15 or more
The finished game in all of its awesome glory on Steam, exclusive access to the PC Beta on Steam, access to the video series, and access the private discussion community.
Estimated Delivery: Oct 2012


Pledge $30 or more
HD download of the documentary series with extras, Digital game soundtrack, and all previous reward tiers.
Estimated Delivery: Oct 2012


Pledge $100 or more
Original "Double Fine Adventure" poster (suitable for framing) exclusive to the campaign, special thanks in the game’s credits, and all previous reward tiers. (posters will be shipped for free in the US, and for $10 internationally)
Estimated Delivery: Aug 2012


Pledge $250 or more
"Double Fine Adventure" Poster autographed by Tim Schafer, Ron Gilbert, and the rest of the design team, and all previous reward tiers.
Estimated Delivery: Aug 2012


Pledge $1,000 or more
Mini portrait of YOU, painted by the game's artist, and all previous reward tiers.
Estimated Delivery: Sep 2012


Pledge $5,000 or more
Larger original painting of art used in the final game, and all previous reward tiers.
Estimated Delivery: Oct 2012


Pledge $10,000 or more
Lunch with Tim Schafer and Ron Gilbert, a tour of the Double Fine offices, and all previous reward tiers. THERE ARE MORE REWARDS but we can't post them here because they're too big! For premium rewards past a $10,000 pledge, see http://www.doublefine.com
Estimated Delivery: Jul 2012

Pledge $15,000 or more:
Dinner with Tim Schafer and key members of the dev team.

Pledge $20,000 or more:
Dinner and BOWLING with Tim Schafer and key members of the dev team.

Pledge $30,000 or more:
Picture of Ron Gilbert smiling.

Pledge $35,000 or more:
Undoctored picture of Ron Gilbert smiling.

Pledge $50,000 or more:
Become an actual character in the game.

Pledge $150,000 or more:
Tim Schafer (that’s me) will give last four remaining Triangle Boxed Day of the Tentacles, in original shrink-wrap.” (Limit of 1) (Holy crap, what am I thinking? I only have four of those!)


You can pledge over $150,000 towards production of this game and you get a collectors item in return. Not, I dunno, a fucking 10% share of any profit or anything. A collectors item. And karma probably. What the hell?

I mean, on one hand, this is a great way of sourcing funds for games that publishers otherwise wouldn't touch, but at the same time, this is fucking charity, no bones about it. Donors get nothing other than the game at the end of it all. Investors and publishers front cash to make things like this on the basis that they'll receive money from the profits. As far as I can tell, Tim Schafer and co will make this game using other peoples money and then take the profits for themselves. The best bit is the fact that they've hit their money target in a day, and everyone is over the fucking moon about how cool the whole idea is.

Am I missing something?

Is Tim Schafer actually giving profits to cancer research or something?

Author:  Grim... [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

I've seen this before, and I can't think where. I think it was for a movie.

Author:  MrD [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

No, you're not missing something.

Everything seems pretty straightforward.

Author:  Grim... [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

To be honest, I think this is more reasonable than charging for an alpha release, because at least the people involved know what they're getting.

Author:  LewieP [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Well you're being a bit of a negative nancy aren't you.

Don't you think it's great that people with a very proven track record can get their fans to fund the development of their title that there obviously is a market for even if no publishers were willing to back it.

I see this basically as a response to market failure of the publishers he pitched it to.

Tim Schafer & team unbound by a publisher is good thing, I reckon.

Author:  MrD [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Grim... wrote:
You're adding quite a bit to the prices, though. The top one is "only" $10k.

Nope. Check the DF website.

Author:  Zardoz [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

How much to get Tim to write the games name in shit across his chest as the opening title?

Author:  Trooper [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

As I saw mentioned on twitter. It's the perfect DRM. You can't pirate a game that doesn't exist yet...

Author:  WTB [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Grim... wrote:
You're adding quite a bit to the prices, though. The top one is "only" $10k.

To be honest, I think this is more reasonable than charging for an alpha release, because at least the people involved know what they're getting.


See my quote. They've added more above and beyond what Kickstarter will allow.

Author:  Cras [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Isn't it basically a case of "I can't get a publisher to fund making this game. If you want it to be made, stump up some cash". Doesn't seem unreasonable. Don't want "Double Fine Adventure" enough to throw money at a studio to make it? Then don't.

Author:  Grim... [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Yeah, I done edited.

Author:  Trooper [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Grim... wrote:
To be honest, I think this is more reasonable than charging for an alpha release, because at least the people involved know what they're getting.


I don't really have a problem with the whole thing, but i'm not sure of your reasoning here?
Basically people are paying $15 for the possibility of a game, whereas at least with the alpha plague you do actually get something for your money.

Author:  WTB [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

LewieP wrote:
Well you're being a bit of a negative nancy aren't you.

Don't you think it's great that people with a very proven track record can get their fans to fund the development of their title that there obviously is a market for even if no publishers were willing to back it.

I see this basically as a response to market failure of the publishers he pitched it to.

Tim Schafer & team unbound by a publisher is good thing, I reckon.


They still ought to be accounting to the people who gave them the money in the first place, though. This is charity as it stands. I can let it slide if people are willing to pay what they would pay for the game anyway - in advance - but it's above and beyond that, when it starts hitting thousands of dollars then we're stepping into shady territory. If someone gives you $150,000 to make something and all you can give them in return is a "thanks mate" whilst raking in the profits for yourself on said thing, that's not on.

Author:  WTB [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Craster wrote:
Isn't it basically a case of "I can't get a publisher to fund making this game. If you want it to be made, stump up some cash". Doesn't seem unreasonable. Don't want "Double Fine Adventure" enough to throw money at a studio to make it? Then don't.


Which is fine in one way, not fine in the other. As I tried to explain above.

Author:  Trooper [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:23 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

WTB wrote:
If someone gives you $150,000 to make something and all you can give them in return is a "thanks mate" whilst raking in the profits for yourself on said thing, that's not on.


Why not? The deal seems perfectly clear to me, it's not something that any sane person would take, but it is clear.

Author:  Cras [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

WTB wrote:
Craster wrote:
Isn't it basically a case of "I can't get a publisher to fund making this game. If you want it to be made, stump up some cash". Doesn't seem unreasonable. Don't want "Double Fine Adventure" enough to throw money at a studio to make it? Then don't.


Which is fine in one way, not fine in the other. As I tried to explain above.


But what they're getting in return is the game. If you want a game enough to throw several grand at a developer, then your reward is the game you so desperately wanted.

Author:  ElephantBanjoGnome [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:25 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Grim... wrote:
I've seen this before, and I can't think where. I think it was for a movie.

You might be thinking of the thing that Ashens is involved in. An independent something or other for which he has a small role. For that large donations will bag you a guest spot in the film. Something like that.

Excellent point though WTB. For $150k you'd expect some share of the IP on the finished game. Who the fuck cares about a box set for the last point and click? Might be worth a couple of hundred if you're lucky. So in that respect, it's an utter pisstake. For $15 getting the game is about all you could reasonably expect, so that's fine, but at the higher levels it's just a piss-take.

Author:  LewieP [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Anyone giving a large sum of money is likely doing so because:
a) They have a lot of spare money.
b) They want to make this game (or whatever kickstarter/crowdfunding thing) happen.
c) They think the expensive things they do get are worth it.

Or likely all three.

Author:  Cras [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Who the fuck cares about a box set for the last point and click?


Someone who's willing to throw $150,000 at a game developer to make a game?

Author:  WTB [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Craster wrote:
WTB wrote:
Craster wrote:
Isn't it basically a case of "I can't get a publisher to fund making this game. If you want it to be made, stump up some cash". Doesn't seem unreasonable. Don't want "Double Fine Adventure" enough to throw money at a studio to make it? Then don't.


Which is fine in one way, not fine in the other. As I tried to explain above.


But what they're getting in return is the game. If you want a game enough to throw several grand at a developer, then your reward is the game you so desperately wanted.


Hmm. I just think this is extremely shady and clever exploitation masquerading as "fuck yeah! Internet community united! We can make shit happen together and feel good about it!".

Author:  KovacsC [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Not if you have the spare cash...

Author:  MrD [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

LewieP wrote:
Or likely all three.

And if anybody had that much money and wanted ownership or what have you, they'd probably have the sense to talk to DF themselves instead of putting thousands of dollars on Some Website.

Author:  WTB [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

And it's not just about the people who are willing to donate $150,000. It's about the fact that the developers are happily willing to let someone do that without giving them anything more than a handshake and a thanks in return.

Author:  ElephantBanjoGnome [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Craster wrote:
Someone who's willing to throw $150,000 at a game developer to make a game?

You'd have to be an idiot with more money than sense. If you fund better than 25% of a game's development and you don't expect anything back, except the 'joy' of playing it, you're stupid.

Author:  Trooper [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

WTB wrote:
Craster wrote:
WTB wrote:
Craster wrote:
Isn't it basically a case of "I can't get a publisher to fund making this game. If you want it to be made, stump up some cash". Doesn't seem unreasonable. Don't want "Double Fine Adventure" enough to throw money at a studio to make it? Then don't.


Which is fine in one way, not fine in the other. As I tried to explain above.


But what they're getting in return is the game. If you want a game enough to throw several grand at a developer, then your reward is the game you so desperately wanted.


Hmm. I just think this is extremely shady and clever exploitation masquerading as "fuck yeah! Internet community united! We can make shit happen together and feel good about it!".


How is it exploitation? It's is extremely clear what you get for your money.

Author:  WTB [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Craster wrote:
Someone who's willing to throw $150,000 at a game developer to make a game?

You'd have to be an idiot with more money than sense. If you fund better than 25% of a game's development and you don't expect anything back, except the 'joy' of playing it, you're stupid.


Exactly, and I think there's an ethical consideration for the developers in this situation. They shouldn't allow it, because it's clearly so fucking stupid.

Author:  WTB [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:31 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Trooper wrote:
WTB wrote:
Craster wrote:
WTB wrote:
Craster wrote:
Isn't it basically a case of "I can't get a publisher to fund making this game. If you want it to be made, stump up some cash". Doesn't seem unreasonable. Don't want "Double Fine Adventure" enough to throw money at a studio to make it? Then don't.


Which is fine in one way, not fine in the other. As I tried to explain above.


But what they're getting in return is the game. If you want a game enough to throw several grand at a developer, then your reward is the game you so desperately wanted.


Hmm. I just think this is extremely shady and clever exploitation masquerading as "fuck yeah! Internet community united! We can make shit happen together and feel good about it!".


How is it exploitation? It's is extremely clear what you get for your money.


Because people are stupid!

Author:  KovacsC [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:31 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

WTB and EBG separated at birth..

It is not different than giving to charity is it?

Author:  WTB [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:33 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

KovacsC wrote:
WTB and EBG separated at birth..

It is not different than giving to charity is it?


Well, exactly!

Except charities don't (or at least aren't supposed to) use your money to make something potentially hugely profitable for their own benefit.

Author:  ElephantBanjoGnome [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Charity is not for profit and has a credible humanitarian benefit.

These are people who can't or won't put together a business plan for real investment (where they'd have to concede a share in the game's profits), getting all of the investment for free and giving back relatively worthless tokens in return. Idiotic.

Author:  Grim... [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Excellent point though WTB. For $150k you'd expect some share of the IP on the finished game.

Well, not really, because it's been clearly stated what you get.

You wouldn't pay that unless you were getting a return, but if someone else is, frankly, insane enough to hand over the cash, they're getting what they thought they'd get.

Author:  KovacsC [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

but the point stands, if you give away your money, then you can't expect anything in return. Unless stated other wise.

Author:  Grim... [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Idiotic.

Or, you know, bloody clever.

Author:  Cras [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Grim... wrote:
You wouldn't pay that unless you were getting a return, but if someone else is, frankly, insane enough to hand over the cash, they're getting what they thought they'd get.


Precisely.

Author:  WTB [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:36 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

EXTREME ANALOGY INCOMING

Jeve Stobs is your mate from school. He comes up to you one day with an idea. It's the MEGA ULTRA iPod. It hasn't been invented yet. It sounds fucking amazing. You want one. You'd love one. He asks you for $150,000 so he can make it. You oblige. You get a MEGA ULTRA iPod out of it. Jeve becomes a billionaire. You have an iPod.

Author:  ElephantBanjoGnome [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:36 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Well yes, I'm not implying there's deception at work in this mechanism. Merely that it's amazing anyone would give more than $15 for a speculative game that may or may not get made, and may or may not be shit. Giving more would merely be stupid and I'm amazed it has worked.

Author:  Grim... [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

WTB wrote:
EXTREME ANALOGY INCOMING

Jeve Stobs is your mate from school. He comes up to you one day with an idea. It's the MEGA ULTRA iPod. It hasn't been invented yet. It sounds fucking amazing. You want one. You'd love one. He asks you for $150,000 so he can make it. You oblige. You get a MEGA ULTRA iPod out of it. Jeve becomes a billionaire. You have an iPod.

Yup. And?

Author:  MrD [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

WTB wrote:
EXTREME ANALOGY INCOMING

Jeve Stobs is your mate from school. He comes up to you one day with an idea. It's the MEGA ULTRA iPod. It hasn't been invented yet. It sounds fucking amazing. You want one. You'd love one. He asks you for $150,000 so he can make it. You oblige. You get a MEGA ULTRA iPod out of it. Jeve becomes a billionaire. You have an iPod.

Everybody gets what they want.

Author:  ElephantBanjoGnome [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Grim... wrote:
Or, you know, bloody clever.

If you're the one getting the cash rolling in, yeah, great!

Author:  ApplePieOfDestiny [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Craster wrote:
Someone who's willing to throw $150,000 at a game developer to make a game?

You'd have to be an idiot with more money than sense.

Email sent

Author:  WTB [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Craster wrote:
Grim... wrote:
You wouldn't pay that unless you were getting a return, but if someone else is, frankly, insane enough to hand over the cash, they're getting what they thought they'd get.


Precisely.


Indeed. So is this a case of not feeling sorry for people with more money than sense? I just don't think it's particularly classy of Schafer and co to offer such a donation option.

Author:  KovacsC [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Do you get your $150,000 back?

Author:  Grim... [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
I'm amazed it has worked.

And, like, super-worked, too, if the numbers on that website are anything to go by.

Author:  WTB [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

KovacsC wrote:
Do you get your $150,000 back?


No. Which is why I think it's all too easy to get swept up in stuff like this. I wonder how many young and foolish people have dumped their savings into this to come out with a game and a poster, whilst Schafer drives off in his Ferrari.

Author:  KovacsC [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Imagine if George Lucas had done that.. And you knew you helped make Star Wars.. They would be awesome and worth $15

Author:  Grim... [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

KovacsC wrote:
Imagine if George Lucas had done that.. And you knew you helped make Star Wars.. They would be awesome and worth $15

$15 is understandable, because you get (hopefully) $15 worth of game.

$10,000 though...

Author:  Zardoz [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Maybe you get a HUGE copy of the game.

Author:  WTB [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Grim... wrote:
KovacsC wrote:
Imagine if George Lucas had done that.. And you knew you helped make Star Wars.. They would be awesome and worth $15

$15 is understandable, because you get (hopefully) $15 worth of game.

$10,000 though...


To make it clear, I'm totally on-board with the $15 thing (or whatever price the game might actually cost) - as demonstrated with my support of the XCOM Xenonauts thing - but above and beyond that just seems a little immoral to me.

Author:  KovacsC [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

I imagine that the donations are a lot of $15...

For 10,000, I would want to try on the Princess's gold bikini!!

Author:  ElephantBanjoGnome [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

WTB wrote:
To make it clear, I'm totally on-board with the $15 thing (or whatever price the game might actually cost) - as demonstrated with my support of the XCOM Xenonauts thing - but above and beyond that just seems a little immoral to me.

:this:

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