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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:54 
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What-ho, chaps!

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Were you both this concerned with the Humble Indie Bundles?

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:54 
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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:55 
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WTB wrote:
It totally isn't the same. When I bought Minecraft I paid £10 (or whatever) and got a game immediately. Also, I only had the option to pay £10. Besides, as I've said, I wouldn't have even started this thread if the only option was to pay $15 to fund the game. You get the game at the end and that's fine. As I've said repeatedly, it's the options of donation over and above that that irk me.


Was the original Minecraft thing not simply a 'donate' button with paypal so you could chuck in what you wanted ?

What about those humble indy bundle things where people donate what they feel like , if the average is £1 and you put in £100,000 does that mean you should automatically get something more ?


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:55 
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SavyGamer

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Do you think that anyone who has ever commissioned a painting to go in a gallery is also an idiot?


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:55 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
KovacsC wrote:
For 10,000, I would want to try on the Princess's gold bikini!!

You are the king of undersell. For $10k I'd want to have full boning rights on the princess for the weekend.


You have more chance of boning Chewbacca than the pricess :DD

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:56 
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zaphod79 wrote:
WTB wrote:
It totally isn't the same. When I bought Minecraft I paid £10 (or whatever) and got a game immediately. Also, I only had the option to pay £10. Besides, as I've said, I wouldn't have even started this thread if the only option was to pay $15 to fund the game. You get the game at the end and that's fine. As I've said repeatedly, it's the options of donation over and above that that irk me.


Was the original Minecraft thing not simply a 'donate' button with paypal so you could chuck in what you wanted ?

What about those humble indy bundle things where people donate what they feel like , if the average is £1 and you put in £100,000 does that mean you should automatically get something more ?


Again, I think the Humble Bundles are great. I really don't think they're comparable to this. We're talking about funding the development of something - from scratch - against a "pay what you feel" model for something that already exists.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:57 
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Legendary Boogeyman

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I know not of what you speak Craster.

From a basic moral perspective, it's pretty reasonable to expect some proportional gratitude and/or kickback from large investments in things. Whether the witless donor cares or not isn't relevent. Someone really keen on the game can simply turn down the benefit, except here no real benefit is being offered.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:57 
SupaMod
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WTB wrote:
Grim... wrote:
WTB wrote:
I am bothered about the fact that people are donating rather than investing in something that is potentially going to make its creator's a pile of cash. Particularly when those donations are potentially sizeable.

I can't agree with this at all. It's just the same as Minecraft - pay us this (€10, or whatever it was) and you get this (unfinished game) and you might get this (finished game). The numbers and things you will get and might get are different, but that's all.

Same shit, different wrapper.


It totally isn't the same. When I bought Minecraft I paid £10 (or whatever) and got a game immediately.

Depending on how early you got on the Minecraft boat, you might not have. You sent some money, you eventually got sent a game (I believe there was a minimum price, but no set price).
Quote:
Also, I only had the option to pay £10.

But they're selling more than one thing. It really isn't that different - "pay money for something that might not materialize".

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:57 
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But this is exactly the same as pay what you want, but with extra cool bonuses if how much you want to pay is a lot.

Edit: and people are only willing to contribute because they are an established developer, with a very proven track record. If it was people no one had ever heard of, they wouldn't have got any where near as big a response.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:58 
SupaMod
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
From a basic moral perspective, it's pretty reasonable to expect some proportional gratitude and/or kickback from large investments in things. Whether the witless donor cares or not isn't relevent. Someone really keen on the game can simply turn down the benefit, except here no real benefit is being offered.

But people who pay more are getting more. We don't think it's worth the money, sure, but they do (because they paid it).

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 14:58 
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Legendary Boogeyman

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LewieP wrote:
Do you think that anyone who has ever commissioned a painting to go in a gallery is also an idiot?

Yes, because I think most art is objectively valueless. Well, more specifically abstract art, and things that don't actually demonstrate an incredible level of technical skill. Subjective worth for objective bollocks. Pay for that and you're an idiot, in my most humble view.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:00 
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Grim... wrote:
But people who pay more are getting more. We don't think it's worth the money, sure, but they do (because they paid it).

And again I'll repeat that there's nothing shady or criminal going on, so there's no beef with that. We're arguing over whether that's worth it for what you get (it's not).

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:00 
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LewieP wrote:
But this is exactly the same as pay what you want, but with extra cool bonuses if how much you want to pay is a lot.

Edit: and people are only willing to contribute because they are an established developer, with a very proven track record. If it was people no one had ever heard of, they wouldn't have got any where near as big a response.


Except it's not. You're fronting cash for the development of something.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:00 
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What-ho, chaps!

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Quote:
"pay money for something that might not materialize".

I did wonder what would happen if the project didn't materialise.

Quote:
If I am unable to complete my project as listed, what should I do?

If you are unable to fulfill the promises made to backers, cannot complete the project as advertised, or decide to abandon the project for any reason, you are expected to cancel funding. A failure to do so could result in damage to your reputation or even legal action on behalf of your backers.

I don't think they could've made that any weaker or more vague.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:01 
SupaMod
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Grim... wrote:
But people who pay more are getting more. We don't think it's worth the money, sure, but they do (because they paid it).

And again I'll repeat that there's nothing shady or criminal is going on, so there's no beef with that. We're arguing over whether that's worth it for what you get (it's not).

Oh right - I wasn't. I totally don't think it is either, but I don't have a problem with other people thinking it is (although I am jealous of their ability to have lots of money but seemingly no sense).

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:04 
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Bad Girl

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WTB wrote:
EXTREME ANALOGY INCOMING

Jeve Stobs is your mate from school. He comes up to you one day with an idea. It's the MEGA ULTRA iPod. It hasn't been invented yet. It sounds fucking amazing. You want one. You'd love one. He asks you for $150,000 so he can make it. You oblige. You get a MEGA ULTRA iPod out of it. Jeve becomes a billionaire. You have an iPod.


That's kinda what happened with Facebook init. That cunts a billionaire whereas his mate who lent him some start up money got sucked off by some banging hot Asian bird.

I know which I'd like.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:04 
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zaphod79 wrote:
Ramsea wrote:

On the other hand, if anyone wants to give me £10, I may or may not give them an awesome home video. Give me £100k and you film it. £200k and fuck it, you can join in!


If your wife would feature in this video I think you may already have a PM from Throughsilver


Nah, it's him playing Forza with you lot, while having a wank as Meaty takes him on the inside, from behind.

Also: If people want to donate that money, why not? It;s their money. Just because you'd want more than that in return for your donation, doesn't mean plenty of people wouldn't be happy to give it in return for some cheap tat.

I haven't read much of this thread btw...So someone who is right in the head has probably already said that. I agree with them!

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:04 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Grim... wrote:
But people who pay more are getting more. We don't think it's worth the money, sure, but they do (because they paid it).

And again I'll repeat that there's nothing shady or criminal going on, so there's no beef with that. We're arguing over whether that's worth it for what you get (it's not).


Oh, it's totally not worth it to me. But it seems to be worth it to others.

WTB seemed to be suggesting it was exploitative and bad, rather than just not worth it, and that's what I was arguing against.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:05 
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I'm just assuming that some of those are meant to be jokes, what with it being from the guys well known for making funny video games.

The rest are for fans to support their heros. People have been doing it for bands for years.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:06 
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ugvm'er at heart...

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WTB wrote:
Craster wrote:
Grim... wrote:
You wouldn't pay that unless you were getting a return, but if someone else is, frankly, insane enough to hand over the cash, they're getting what they thought they'd get.


Precisely.


Indeed. So is this a case of not feeling sorry for people with more money than sense? I just don't think it's particularly classy of Schafer and co to offer such a donation option.


Wait, what?

You want me to feel sorry for someone who can afford to pay $150000 for a game?
I suspect the sound of my pity will be drowned out by their fleet of Ferraris...


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:07 
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Craster wrote:
ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Grim... wrote:
But people who pay more are getting more. We don't think it's worth the money, sure, but they do (because they paid it).

And again I'll repeat that there's nothing shady or criminal going on, so there's no beef with that. We're arguing over whether that's worth it for what you get (it's not).


Oh, it's totally not worth it to me. But it seems to be worth it to others.

WTB seemed to be suggesting it was exploitative and bad, rather than just not worth it, and that's what I was arguing against.


I still maintain that it seems exploitative to me! But I'll concede that a fool and his money and all that.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:07 
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People think Scientology is worth it, and that's pretty exploitative. Ok, poor comparison, but I think you'd rather call a Scientologist an idiot rather than an informed person making a rational willing choice for something they think is 'worth it'. Same concept, different vendor.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:08 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
People think Scientology is worth it, and that's pretty exploitative. Ok, poor comparison, but I think you'd rather call a Scientologist an idiot rather than an informed person making a rational willing choice for something they think is 'worth it'. Same concept, different vendor.


I've yet to see people's lives destroyed by Tim Schaefer.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:10 
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Legendary Boogeyman

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I'm pretty sure I said 'poor comparison'. *checks* - yep, did.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:13 
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Fair enough, but I'd say that it's a very important differentiator which does make the difference between exploitation and just offering a money sink for people who can't work out what else to do with it.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:14 
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SavyGamer

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WTB wrote:
LewieP wrote:
But this is exactly the same as pay what you want, but with extra cool bonuses if how much you want to pay is a lot.

Edit: and people are only willing to contribute because they are an established developer, with a very proven track record. If it was people no one had ever heard of, they wouldn't have got any where near as big a response.


Except it's not. You're fronting cash for the development of something.

Whereas when you buy a game through pay what you want, the money is spent on cola bottles and sherbet dip dabs?


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:14 
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Heavy Metal Tough Guy

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Craster wrote:
ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
People think Scientology is worth it, and that's pretty exploitative. Ok, poor comparison, but I think you'd rather call a Scientologist an idiot rather than an informed person making a rational willing choice for something they think is 'worth it'. Same concept, different vendor.


I've yet to see people's lives destroyed by Tim Schaefer.

That's only because Tim Schaefer leaves no trace. He sneaks in, burns all you hold dear, and then *foof*, he's gone.


Like Bluecup, I kinda assumed those higher ones were a joke. Picture of him smiling? Bowling with the dev team?


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:17 
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LewieP wrote:
WTB wrote:
LewieP wrote:
But this is exactly the same as pay what you want, but with extra cool bonuses if how much you want to pay is a lot.

Edit: and people are only willing to contribute because they are an established developer, with a very proven track record. If it was people no one had ever heard of, they wouldn't have got any where near as big a response.


Except it's not. You're fronting cash for the development of something.

Whereas when you buy a game through pay what you want, the money is spent on cola bottles and sherbet dip dabs?


Sorry, I just don't think the two are comparable.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:18 
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SavyGamer

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So is it the fact that they haven't got a game yet the main issue for you?


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:20 
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There's a difference between needing money for developing something, and developing it, releasing it for free, and then accepting grateful donations.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:20 
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Partially, yeah. But the issue has been clouded by the Humble Bundle chatter that I don't really think is relevant. I think there's a stark difference between people acting as "publisher" and people paying whatever they want for something that has already been "published".


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:26 
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I suppose, but it is a clever way to raise capital..

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:28 
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Lets see, if someone did donate $150,000, they'd get the game, all the extras, a signed poster, become a character in the game, have a day where they visit and tour Double Fine Studios, have lunch, dinner and bowling with Tim Schafer and the team, and get one of the original shrinkwrapped copies of Day of the Tentacle.

Some pretty unique stuff there, if you were a huge fan of Double Fine/Lucasarts, and were rich, you might want to go for it.

If you actually preferred to invest, I'm sure Double Fine would be open to that, its what Notch is doing with respect to Psychonauts 2.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:34 
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I like my games really alpha. Like, the alphaerist available. If you were to play them you'd be blown away at how alpha they are. The lack of tutorials or handholding makes them better. I am best.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:34 
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LewieP wrote:
WTB wrote:
LewieP wrote:
But this is exactly the same as pay what you want, but with extra cool bonuses if how much you want to pay is a lot.

Edit: and people are only willing to contribute because they are an established developer, with a very proven track record. If it was people no one had ever heard of, they wouldn't have got any where near as big a response.


Except it's not. You're fronting cash for the development of something.

Whereas when you buy a game through pay what you want, the money is spent on cola bottles and sherbet dip dabs?


Is this game being developed by Stuart Campbell?

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:35 
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KovacsC wrote:
I suppose, but it is a clever way to raise capital..


Certainly!

Although, what happens when they reach their target? They need, say $500,000. What happens to everything above and beyond that? Straight into their pockets? Hire more staff and make an even better game? Dump it in a war chest? Keep the current staff, make the game as intended and double all the wages?

It's a fantastic idea and an exciting drive forward into the future of games publishing, but surely there needs to be some ground rules or something?


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:36 
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What-ho, chaps!

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Ask 'em.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:42 
SupaMod
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MrD wrote:
Ask 'em.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure there's a way for you to get dinner with them...

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:43 
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You keep talking about games. You do realise Kickstarter isn't some brave new way to get games made, right? It was built for, and is largely used for, limited light manufacturing runs for companies that couldn't get seed captial for fabrication without it.

People aren't supposed to be seriously looking beyond the $50 mark in general, and if you look at the "funded by XXX people" listing you'll see this is borne out. The idea is: entrepreneur has an idea for a $50 gadget. He could take a bank loan, make stock, launch the product, but there's significant risk of it not selling. Instead he punts it out on Kickstarter for $40. If insufficient people pay up, the product wasn't going to sell anyway, and no-one pays anything. Kickstarter acts as micro-VC seed funding and market research in one. The difference is, the mico-VCs don't fe equity -- as that would be hopelessly unworkable. They get one or more instances of the product instead.

Every Kickstarter price point beyond that $40-for-one-thing is basically for people who rrreeaaalllyyy want this to take off. It's classic price sensitivity microeconomics. As long as its not misrepresented -- and it isn't -- I don't understand why anyone can have a problem with it.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:46 
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SavyGamer

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WTB wrote:
What happens to everything above and beyond that?


They've said the following will be stuff they will do if they get more than enough funds:
Support for more languages, ie getting it professionally translated by more people.
Support for different platforms, they've specifically said iOS and Mac, but I suppose android and the consoles are possible too.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:47 
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I don't think anybody in this thread represented Kickstarter as anything other than a website for crowd-sourcing money. Nor is anyone knocking the model - it's a fantastic idea. I've explained my problem already.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:54 
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LewieP wrote:
WTB wrote:
What happens to everything above and beyond that?


They've said the following will be stuff they will do if they get more than enough funds:
Support for more languages, ie getting it professionally translated by more people.
Support for different platforms, they've specifically said iOS and Mac, but I suppose android and the consoles are possible too.


That's pretty cool I suppose. As I've maintained from the original post, I don't have any problem with the business model, I just don't like the particular way it has been applied in this case. But if people are insistent that the $150,000 donation options, etc, are a joke (although I still think they're irresponsible and potentially exploitative), then fine.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:55 
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I don't think anyone misinterpretted the concept of the site or needed it explained; we all get it. We also know it's not illegal but that the aforementioned benefits of funding the game are of debatable value. The objection is around whether there's a moral imperitive to offer more than a few cheap kickbacks for a significant investment. Clearly WTB and I think there is, others don't, and others are a bit meh. In either case the site is a great idea and I look forward to seeing, amongst other things, this bizarro movie in the offing involving everyones favourite tat reviewer. I'll try to find the link.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:56 
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Heavy Metal Tough Guy

Joined: 31st Mar, 2008
Posts: 6496
Of course, kickstarter really gets into it's own when people start putting awesome and realistic projects like this on it.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:57 
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Unpossible!

Joined: 27th Jun, 2008
Posts: 38439
I guess Jahonney's exams are finished :)


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:58 
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Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 14497
DavPaz wrote:
I guess Jahonney's exams are finished :)


They're not! I'm procrastinating! I have a Wills & Administration of Estates exam tomorrow morning! However, I have just received an email about severe weather procedures from the college, and snow is coming again. Hope it's not called off...


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 15:59 
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Unpossible!

Joined: 27th Jun, 2008
Posts: 38439
Bloody students!


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 16:00 
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Legendary Boogeyman

Joined: 22nd Dec, 2010
Posts: 8175
Here it is, not Kickstarter but identical concept, different genre. http://www.indiegogo.com/NerdQuest-movie

Edit: Wow, one person has donated $1000.

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Mr Kissyfur wrote:
Pretty much everyone agrees with Gnomes, really, it's just some are too right on to admit it. :)


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 16:01 
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SavyGamer

Joined: 29th Apr, 2008
Posts: 7600
The bloke from Belle & Sebastian has used it to fund his film too.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 16:01 
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Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
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LewieP wrote:
The bloke from Belle & Sebastian has used it to fund his film too.


Urgh.


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