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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 22:20 
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Mr Kissyfur wrote:
NO ONE'S FORCING ANYONE TO GIVE HIM MONEY


THERE'S NO NEED TO SHOUT SEE ABOVE.

HE'S A CHARMING ROGUE AND HE MIGHT STEAL OTHER KICKSTARTERS' MONEY THAT ARE BASED ON MORE THAN THE DELUSIONS OF A CRAZY OLD MAN PLAYING ON PAST GLORIES.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 22:21 
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AtrocityExhibition wrote:
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
People don't have to give him money, you know. It's not like he's conning his way into a charity's coffers or anything.


But people only have so much money to pledge, and an old charmer like Molyneux who hasn't turned out a decent game since fucking Dungeon Keeper - (Black & White, at a push) - could dip into a finite pot of money that could be spent on better things.

No one's making people give him money that should be going to Minecraft in Space, FFS. And plus, it's just fucking videogames.

The whole point of Kickstarter is that it's a democratic funding source. If people don't want what he's selling, they won't give him money.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 22:24 
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Mr Kissyfur wrote:
The whole point of Kickstarter is that it's a democratic funding source. If people don't want what he's selling, they won't give him money.


But he's slippery!


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 22:25 
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this is cos he's French, innit.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 22:39 
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AtrocityExhibition wrote:
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
The whole point of Kickstarter is that it's a democratic funding source. If people don't want what he's selling, they won't give him money.


But he's slippery!

Surely the people funding him think differently of his potential than you do.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 22:40 
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throughsilver wrote:
AtrocityExhibition wrote:
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
The whole point of Kickstarter is that it's a democratic funding source. If people don't want what he's selling, they won't give him money.


But he's slippery!

Surely the people funding him think differently of his potential than you do.


They're being duped by a known Frenchman.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 22:41 
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AtrocityExhibition wrote:
throughsilver wrote:
AtrocityExhibition wrote:
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
The whole point of Kickstarter is that it's a democratic funding source. If people don't want what he's selling, they won't give him money.


But he's slippery!

Surely the people funding him think differently of his potential than you do.


They're being duped by a known Frenchman.


:DD

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 23:48 
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Molyneux's a cunt, but there's enough people who'll still kiss his butt and call it ice cream (Yerpgonks staff writers, for example...) in spite of his last few games being unchallenging snorefests with sub-Python humour, or his outright lies about Project fucking Milo.

Braben, meanwhile, has been working on Elite 4 for allegedly the last trillion years and now decides to ask for money? What the fuck has he done up until now, and how, if he needs money?

The one and only thing I've backed on Kickstarter I was basically putting an order in for a product that needed a minimum number of orders to get a production run (a plush cuddly stuffed animal of a spider, if you're really must know. It's going to be awesome)


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 0:27 
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Rab's a legend, but I don't totally agree with him here.

I've got a few criticisms of how the Elite and Godus kickstarter campaigns have been handled, but I reckon they're well within their rights to ask for their players to fund the games instead of the publishers.

I suspect Molyneux has probably put a lot of his own money into 22cans, if that's the case he should really outline that in the pitch (like how Brian Fargo said he was going to put iirc $100k of his own money into it), and if he didn't then he bloody well should, he's no doubt loaded after selling his studio to Microsoft.

For Braben, considering he's claimed to have worked on it on and off for pretty much the last decade, and considering how The Outsider went awol, I think he should have probably actually showed us a game. The elite pitch comes across far more as trying to cash in on your reputation and brand than most do.

They're both also charging close to full price for games that don't exist. PC games typically retail for like £20-£25 at release these days (with a few exceptions like call of duty and blizzard games), and Godus is £15, and Elite is £20 for the first 10,000, £30 thereafter. I think you should be giving people a decent discount if you're asking them to pay upfront for a game that might not even get completed. Wasteland 2 and Doublefine Adventure were under a tenner.

But these are pretty much just reasons for me to not give them money, not reasons I wish they didn't exist.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:45 
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The problem I have with Kickstarter is that once a project is funded, they don't have to keep financial records, report on progress or answer to any authority. For all we know, our contributions could be paying for an extension to Molyneux's mansion.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 18:43 
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Mr Kissyfur wrote:
AtrocityExhibition wrote:
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
People don't have to give him money, you know. It's not like he's conning his way into a charity's coffers or anything.


But people only have so much money to pledge, and an old charmer like Molyneux who hasn't turned out a decent game since fucking Dungeon Keeper - (Black & White, at a push) - could dip into a finite pot of money that could be spent on better things.

No one's making people give him money that should be going to Minecraft in Space, FFS. And plus, it's just fucking videogames.

The whole point of Kickstarter is that it's a democratic funding source. If people don't want what he's selling, they won't give him money.


This is bollocks!


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 18:50 
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It's not "just fucking videogames", it's potentially millions of pounds being handed over for potentially empty promises. Yes, people don't HAVE to hand over their money, but that's my problem with Kickstarter generally. These guys are pitching to us and expecting us to bear a financial risk. Their product could turn out to be shite. Based on the majority of videogames it probably will be a bit shit.

It's worrying, in my opinion. Handing over money for something that doesn't exist yet. It's not like investors reap the potential rewards investors would traditionally. They just get a game at the end. A potentially shit game.

And I agree with Rab. I have warmed to the idea of Kickstarter to fund things that otherwise wouldn't happen. Provided the developers/whoever are capable of delivering. But these guys could easily secure funding elsewhere. I'm not worried about Molyneux et al stealing money from more deserving Kickstarter projects, I'm just irritated that he could easily secure the funding elsewhere. Instead it's almost like hes exploiting his fans for no reasons other than he'll receive the potentially limitless investment money directly.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 18:59 
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Simon Pegg's in on it as well -
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/exh ... f-the-dead
I have to say, while i think that while I agree with the point of view, if people don't want it, they won't pay for it, having multi millionaires go on and ask for people spare cash seems a little off IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 21:23 
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I would like it more if the pledgors got some sort of investment stake.

Even if it was something along the lines of, "we'll take X% of what we make, and distribute it based on what percentage of the overal total you pledged"

With the people running the kickstarter deciding what the X is when they launch the campaign.

Malc

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 21:27 
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Malc wrote:
I would like it more if the pledgors got some sort of investment stake.

Even if it was something along the lines of, "we'll take X% of what we make, and distribute it based on what percentage of the overal total you pledged"

With the people running the kickstarter deciding what the X is when they launch the campaign.

Malc


Maybe it's just me but I think even that is a perversion of what Kickstarter should be about.

I still see it as a way to make something happen that isn't commercially viable through the normal channels, which is why I think it sucks that you've got fucking Molyneux on there begging for garlic and strings of onions.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 22:53 
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WTB wrote:

And I agree with Rab.


That two largely irrelevant small-time games designers in the UK are going to bring down an extremely popular multinational multimillion pound business, by possibly making games that might possibly not be fantastic and might possibly have been doable without the site, though not with the same degree of freedom or faithfulness to what the audience desire?

Seems a strange thing to agree with to me, but each to their own.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 23:08 
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All of the words you left out of your quote answer your question, mate.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 23:12 
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WTB wrote:
It's not "just fucking videogames", it's potentially millions of pounds being handed over for potentially empty promises. Yes, people don't HAVE to hand over their money, but that's my problem with Kickstarter generally. These guys are pitching to us and expecting us to bear a financial risk. Their product could turn out to be shite. Based on the majority of videogames it probably will be a bit shit.

It's worrying, in my opinion. Handing over money for something that doesn't exist yet. It's not like investors reap the potential rewards investors would traditionally. They just get a game at the end. A potentially shit game.

And I agree with Rab. I have warmed to the idea of Kickstarter to fund things that otherwise wouldn't happen. Provided the developers/whoever are capable of delivering. But these guys could easily secure funding elsewhere. I'm not worried about Molyneux et al stealing money from more deserving Kickstarter projects, I'm just irritated that he could easily secure the funding elsewhere. Instead it's almost like hes exploiting his fans for no reasons other than he'll receive the potentially limitless investment money directly.

I apologise for repeating myself here, but the simple, yet nonetheless supremely important, point seems to be being missed. No one is making them hand the money over. No one is handing money over to Braben or Mollypoo thinking, yes there will deffo be a personalised wondergame made just for me, delivered in 9 months and then being crushingly disappointed. There are no false pretenses here.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 0:03 
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Mr Kissyfur wrote:
No one is making them hand the money over..

But no-one is making the person that gets all the money make the item / service they promised, either.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 0:10 
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Grim... wrote:
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
No one is making them hand the money over..

But no-one is making the person that gets all the money make the item / service they promised, either.

They didn't promise to try to make the game, they promised that they'd TRY to try...

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 0:13 
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With Kickstarter, is there any comeback if the game that gets produced turns out to be a cobbled-together piece of crap?

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 0:22 
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I don't even think there is any consequences if they fail to ship a game.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 0:43 
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Which is the problem! Sure, people aren't forced to hand over their cash, but people are stupid!


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 0:45 
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WTB wrote:
Which is the problem! Sure, people aren't forced to hand over their cash, but people are stupid!

Go on then, how much did you give and what did they promise you?

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 0:45 
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The world! To both questions! :'(


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 0:48 
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WTB wrote:
The world! To both questions! :'(

Then you gained nothing from the risk, you should have just kept it to start with.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 0:52 
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Aha! I was referring to "my world" initially and a promised "better world".


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 0:56 
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grumpysmurf wrote:
The problem I have with Kickstarter is that once a project is funded, they don't have to keep financial records, report on progress or answer to any authority. For all we know, our contributions could be paying for an extension to Molyneux's mansion.

Or just buying a first mansion for the relative no-namer Kickstarting pan-handlers.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 13:48 
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So I take it nobody's going to flang pence at Dizzy then?

metalangel wrote:
Braben, meanwhile, has been working on Elite 4 for allegedly the last trillion years and now decides to ask for money? What the fuck has he done up until now, and how, if he needs money?


Read the Kickstarter page and watch the videos. Elite 4's been a skunkworks project at Frontier for years, with different people fiddling with it in the background between other projects. He's using the Kickstarter to see if there's sufficient real interest in another Elite to make it worth full-time developing. I think he's more concerned with the fact there might be a vocal minority of people making a lot of noise for a new Elite, making it and releasing it to low sales. If the Kickstarter doesn't quite reach its target, I wouldn't be surprised to see him develop it anyway.

As for Mr Burns imitator Moleytwat, I was understanding that 22 cans were going to do 22 "experiments" and just one game. So what is Godus? An "experiment" or the game? If it's an "experiment" such as Curiosity, not interested. If it's another flat-land-maintainer Populous, not interested. If it's another Black & White, certainly not interested. He has a track record of not delivering on promises made and now he expects people to be financially liable for those promises? Well...

He also seems to be blissfully unaware that From Dust was recently released.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 16:17 
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Dimrill wrote:
So I take it nobody's going to flang pence at Dizzy then?


No. It makes me cross......

Two multi-millionaires asking for cash to keep their dev house nice and busy for a few months. The money also underwrites the risk of taking on the project. If its a success, two millionaires get richer. If it fails, they get no poorer.

Kickstarter is supposed to be about innovative projects that can't get funding from elsewhere, not eliminating financial risk for a couple of multi millionaires to release "Shit Egg Game 9".

We can get all misty eyed about Dizzy but it was nothing special then and nothing special now. It sold by the bucketload because it was cheap, and you'd be guaranteed a certain level of quality rather than taking a punt on a random title.

If the Oliver's or Codemasters thought it was a real winner they would have done something years ago. Fact is Dizzy was found out for what it was when they released Crystal Kingdom Dizzy at full price and it didn't sell. When then happened everyone forgot about it.

Do not encourage this foolishness/greed.*

* Disclaimer: I have more sympathy for Braben. Seems he's had this running in the background for years and the bad experience with Gametek means he probably wants/needs to go it alone.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 16:24 
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Surprised they have access to the IP. I would've thunked Codemasters would've sewn that up tight after the HD Prince of the Yolkfolk.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 17:58 
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I have to admit, I'd be almost duty bound to throw in a couple of quid if they called it "Shit Egg Game 9."


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 18:03 
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GazChap wrote:
I have to admit, I'd be almost duty bound to throw in a couple of quid if they called it "Shit Egg Game 9."


Kickstarter that instead !


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 18:05 
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My plush spider off Kickstarter is being shipped!


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 18:11 
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GazChap wrote:
I have to admit, I'd be almost duty bound to throw in a couple of quid if they called it "Shit Egg Game 9."


What about Dog Egg 9?

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 18:14 
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Dimrill wrote:
What about Dog Egg 9?

Fuckin' prawns.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:13 
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Struggling to find any reason why anybody would want to back this one.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012- ... ickstarter

You're funding a commune for people to make games. Without getting any games from it.

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:13 
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Er, except you get 30 games for it. From some amazing game designers.

Edit: Seriously, I backed that one in a heartbeat when it launched. $15 is not a lot of money for all those games.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:16 
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Ah, yes $15 nets you more games. Didn't see that. Does "devs that worked on" mean game designer though?

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:45 
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The use of "have worked on" is a bit disingenuous there. They're developers of some of the best games from the last few years. I think they use that phrase because a handful of the games are made by individuals at developers, rather than the entire team.

I don't know most of the names, but messhof, Cactus, Bennet Foddy, Vlambeer and Adam Saltsman have all made excellent games in recent years.

Not to mention you also get several already released games: Noitu Love 2: Devolution, Aquaria, Off-Road Velociraptor Safari & The Basement Collection.

This is one of the best kickstarters out there.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:14 
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I like the sound of Off-Road Velociraptor Safari!

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:20 
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It's just a name. It's actually a text-only logistics sim where you run a shipping container supply company.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:25 
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Off-Road Velociraptor Safari is the best game. The best.




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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:44 
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I've played that.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 19:59 
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Oliver twins flannel on about the Dizzy Kickstarter:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012- ... ickstarter

Some reasonable comments to be found, especially by Eurogamer standards!

Quote:
1) Sure, by asking us to fund it. WHo gets all the profits at the end of it? Oh right, a professional studio! With bank managers pissing themselves that they can get all the money and profits without having to punt up much - if anything - in the way of investment.

2) Not my problem.

Because if The Oliver Twins cannot find traditional funding, whose fault is that? Same goes with Molyneux and co. Could it be their recent output has simply... you know. Been a bit pants? Could it be that traditional investors are wary of funding people whose recent track record has hardly been a shining example?

But that's fine for Kickstarter, let's just tell people about the games they used to love and how we can rebuild them for a modern era! Let's use and exploit their nostalgic memories, their rose-tinted glasses, their personal goodwill.

Do you see how that can be construed as somewhat cynical? I think the problem is The Oliver Twins are coming to Kickstarter at a time when a fair few gamers are becoming more and more cynical, as more and more big name developers turn to Kickstarter in lieu of their traditional means of funding. People are beginning to feel exploited.

It's terrible that they may feel wrongly maligned as a result, but this is what was going to happen at some point. Eventually, people were going to start feeling that some are taking advantage of their goodwill. Are they? Well... possibly. It's all well and good to tell people it's not much money but if they're asking the question, either you've not told them why it's so pricey and need to explain or perhaps, in crazy land, they might actually have a point...

I've bought Dizzy. Even Fantastic Adventures of Dizzy. I love it. But Dizzy is of an era, a memory of my childhood. And I have learned to great cost in recent years that some memories are really best left there. I can remember him and the adventures we shared fondly, without the modern world intruding on it.

And I'd be happy to leave Dizzy there. He got a lot of work in his time. I'm looking forward to new games and new characters now. I'd feel bitterly upset if they funded this and it turned out to end up being a bit crap.

Which is the final point. What if it IS a bit crap? Can people ask for their money back?

I think we all know the answer to that one.


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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 21:38 
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INFINITE POWAH

Joined: 1st Apr, 2008
Posts: 30498
LewieP wrote:
Off-Road Velociraptor Safari is the best game. The best.



Wasn't that on Armor Games about 5 years ago?

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 Post subject: Re: What the fuck is this shit?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 0:01 
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Honey Boo Boo

Joined: 28th Mar, 2008
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It is indeed old... but it has a pleasing title which can be crucial in getting people to try your game (see also: Try Not To Myp)


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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:14 
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Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 14497
I've changed the name of this thread because I'm sick of seeing my filthy swears on the forum every day.


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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:15 
8-Bit Champion
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Two heads are better than one

Joined: 16th Apr, 2008
Posts: 14483
WTB wrote:
I've changed the name of this thread because I'm sick of seeing my filthy swears on the forum every day.


So how are people suppose to find it then ! :-)

Taken from a thread on Neogaf - another group who are either abusing kickstarter or really dont have a clue what they are doing from Joystiq

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/11/27 ... r-project/

Quote:
Earlier this year, the folks at Goblinworks created a Kickstarter project for the tech demo version of their fantasy sandbox MMO Pathfinder Online. Not only did the team crush their initial goal of $50,000, but they went on to raise over $300,000 to create the demo. The Kickstarter bug seems to still be biting because the studio has announced another Kickstarter project for the completion of the game.

With a new goal of one meeeellion dollars, Goblinworks hopes to expand from their tech demo and utilize the new team to make the very best Pathfinder Online possible. The new design crew consists of former developers from CCP, Cryptic, Zenimax, Turbine, and more, so you can see why this is an exciting project for MMO fans.


So they kickstartered a demo for their system got about 6 times the amount they needed for that and now that they have the demo they want $1,000,000 to build and sell it instead of getting 'real' investors who would potentially get something for putting their money in

First kickstarter : http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/167 ... ology-demo
Second Kickstarter : http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/167 ... andbox-mmo


(original neogaf thread here : http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=501713 )


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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:29 
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Skillmeister

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 27023
Location: Felelagedge Wedgebarge, The River Tib
Ggr. It's odd how within 12 months we've gone from The Notch Model to kickstarting for pennies to make your rubbish indie *spit hack retch* game.

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