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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 13:22 
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So then Hearthly Jnr has decided this is not for her, fair enough she gave it a good few hours but ultimately concluded it was too slow and not exciting enough for her taste.

As such me and Mrs Hearthly re-rolled as Undead on Horde and have been making our way through the levels at a steady pace together, I'm a Prot Warrior and she's a Disc Priest. Originally we were going to look for dungeon groups at the appropriate levels but decided we were having more fun just questing together so we stuck at that.

For sure the game is slow and completely lacking in the smooth, slick design of the modern game, but that's what we're enjoying about it. Stuff like having to go on a 40 minute detour to find a weapon trainer in Orgrimmar who can teach Mrs Hearthly to equip a nice staff that's just dropped for her off a mob, or me having to level up a new weapon type by missing everything for several minutes, or having to carefully choose which skills to learn from our class trainers because we can't afford everything.

Some stuff is quite janky, like quests with shit drop rates and the fact that loot isn't shared, so if we need 10 wolf fangs and only 1 in 3 wolves appear to have any fangs, it can easily take 60 wolves to get all 20 fangs, but we just get into our groove, work our way through, watch the XP bars fill up, and get better and better at working together as a team. Mrs Hearthly loves the fact that her decisions are meaningful, getting something wrong can often mean outright death, we're not indestructible gods like players are in the modern game.

Anyway, we're having fun with it, server queues haven't been an issue for a couple of weeks now, maybe a 2-3 minute wait at peak times on our server, but generally it's straight in.

Won't be for everyone I've no doubt, but considering it's basically free with a one month sub (i.e. price of entry is a tenner), maybe worth taking a look if you never played it back in the day.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 13:50 
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An early wave of banhammers for exploiters.....

TL:DW - People found a way to exploit the layering technology whilst in dungeons, so that they could effectively respawn bosses over and over again without having to leave the dungeon or reset it or do anything else. Literally work through the dungeon until you get to the boss that you want to farm, and then:

1) KILL BOSS
2) LOOT BOSS
3) USE LAYER SWITCH EXPLOIT
4) BOSS IS ALIVE ON NEW LAYER
5) RETURN TO STEP 1

Blizz have come down really hard on this one, with everything that was gained from the exploit being reclaimed and bans of 1-3-6-12-PERMANENT being handed out.

Not sure how they'll reclaim stuff that was sold on, inflated economies, patterns that were sold and learned etc.


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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 19:00 
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They are banning people because of a loop hole?

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 19:15 
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Deliberate exploit that directly impacts negatively on all other people on the same server, big difference.

Also, explicitly against the T&Cs of the game, everyone who plays WoW (and particularly the type of player who was abusing this exploit) knows they're running the risk of a ban.

The length of the bans is related to how systematically the players in question abused the exploit. It might happen 'by accident' once, but those who've been handed the lengthy bans knew exactly what they were doing.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 19:48 
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I watched the video. This exploit was not in the original but a new addition.

Seems an odd thing blizzard have added.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 21:09 
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It's a consequence of the 'layering' stuff they've added to try and help manage the various instances. That concept didn't exist in the original incarnation so couldn't be exploited. Because it didn't exist.


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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 21:11 
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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 22:02 
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Bamba wrote:
It's a consequence of the 'layering' stuff they've added to try and help manage the various instances. That concept didn't exist in the original incarnation so couldn't be exploited. Because it didn't exist.


Yeah the layering thing may be a 'necessary evil' but the sooner Blizzard can turn it off the better TBH, I get why they did it, and doubtless it has smoothed things out in these opening few weeks, but it's introducing more than its share of issues.

Then again, me and Mrs Hearthly were out questing last night and even just our layer was really rather busy and there was quite some contention for the right sort of baddies to kill, I'm not sure how tolerable it would have been with a 500% increase in players in the same area at the same time, trying to find the same sort of baddies to kill.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 13:56 
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Is a layer just another server?

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 15:10 
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No, the layers are effectively multiple instances of the same game area run from a single server.

So for example me and Mrs Hearthly both log in at the same time, she might be on Layer 3 and I might be on Layer 5, so we can be stood in exactly the same spot but we can't see each other, however we can message each other as we're on the same server, if she lists something on the auction house, I can see her listing on the auction house, because it's the auction house for the same server.

However, if we want to go out questing together and we're not already on the same layer, we have to invite the other to a group, and once we're grouped it'll move me to her layer, or vice versa, so we can see each other and go off questing together.

If we were on different servers, none of the above would be possible, irrespective of the whole layer thing.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 15:36 
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KovacsC wrote:
Is a layer just another server?

Don't you start again


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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 15:38 
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I can’t believe Blizzard put that in. Don’t they like consumers playing their games? Just astonishing. What a shabby mess of uselessness.


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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 15:47 
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Just make the servers bigger and include more layers within each server. Then you can scale down layers rather than servers.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 15:57 
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There's still a finite limit as to how many concurrent players a single server can handle and still give a good game experience, regardless of which layers they're on. AFAIK they're already very close to that limit with the number of layers they've implemented already. (Hence the queues at launch, since allowing more players onto a single server (irrespective of layers) would have started to harm the gameplay experience for everyone.)

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 16:19 
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They should put some of those layers in the cloud. That would fix it.


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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 16:39 
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Squirt wrote:
They should put some of those layers in the cloud. That would fix it.


And utilise blockchain, FFS!

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 18:33 
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DavPaz wrote:
KovacsC wrote:
Is a layer just another server?

Don't you start again

What?

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:53 
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I am sure folks were saying the game was old so could not increase the servers, yet magically they add more instances on each server to allow more users.. I am sure they had a good reason for the 2 hour waits...

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:59 
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KovacsC wrote:
I am sure folks were saying the game was old so could not increase the servers, yet magically they add more instances on each server to allow more users.. I am sure they had a good reason for the 2 hour waits...

You're doing it on purpose now.


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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:24 
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DavPaz wrote:
KovacsC wrote:
I am sure folks were saying the game was old so could not increase the servers, yet magically they add more instances on each server to allow more users.. I am sure they had a good reason for the 2 hour waits...

You're doing it on purpose now.


Yes, I just love to be told I am wrong and I don't understand.. yet I did :)

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:34 
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You don't.


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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:40 
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Trooper wrote:
You don't.


I don't understand?

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:41 
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Unpossible!

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KovacsC wrote:
Trooper wrote:
You don't.


I don't understand?

Do you?


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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:44 
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I think so..

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:03 
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Think of it like physical/virtual.

The servers are physical. Add more servers, you can add more players, but they can't interact.

The layers are VMs on each server. You can add layers so you can have fewer players per layer, but adding layers doesn't increase the resources available to the server.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:57 
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Cras wrote:
Think of it like physical/virtual.

The servers are physical. Add more servers, you can add more players, but they can't interact.

The layers are VMs on each server. You can add layers so you can have fewer players per layer, but adding layers doesn't increase the resources available to the server.


I get that, so why could more layers not be added to reduce the 2 hour wait to log on?

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:00 
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Unpossible!

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Mate! We've covered this


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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:02 
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KovacsC wrote:
Cras wrote:
Think of it like physical/virtual.

The servers are physical. Add more servers, you can add more players, but they can't interact.

The layers are VMs on each server. You can add layers so you can have fewer players per layer, but adding layers doesn't increase the resources available to the server.


I get that, so why could more layers not be added to reduce the 2 hour wait to log on?


Because the server has a max capacity. Adding layers doesn't affect that, it's only logical separation.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:04 
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There are only so many times you can rearrange the same words in a different order before you have to give up.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:04 
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not convinced we did..

If i read back, I was told there can't be more servers, as that would cause economic problems when the quiet servers were reduced. So no extra servers could be added and uses would rather wait 2 hours then go on another server.

Now we find there are layers, (who knew), and there can be many of these. As long as there servers can support the CPU and memory needed for each layer. So one server = many layers...

Why does there still need to be a 2 hour wait, just add more layers.... as these can be reduced after without effect the servers.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:09 
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KovacsC wrote:
Now we find there are layers, (who knew),


You did, weeks ago.

https://www.beexcellenttoeachother.com/ ... 1#p1028611

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evidence.JPG


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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:11 
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KovacsC wrote:
not convinced we did..

If i read back, I was told there can't be more servers, as that would cause economic problems when the quiet servers were reduced. So no extra servers could be added and uses would rather wait 2 hours then go on another server.

Now we find there are layers, (who knew), and there can be many of these. As long as there servers can support the CPU and memory needed for each layer. So one server = many layers...

Why does there still need to be a 2 hour wait, just add more layers.... as these can be reduced after without effect the servers.


The physical servers have a maximum capacity which is why there is queuing, because of resource availability. Chopping it up logically into 5 layers or 50 doesn't affect that resource availability on the host.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:11 
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As far as I can tell, Kov is more or less asking:

Why can’t they overcome the 10k users on a server problem by allowing servers to have 100k people on them, and then a ton of instances layered within the same server to stop everyone trying to butcher the same pig.

And as far as I can tell the answer is:
That would still probably cause unintended effects to the in-game economy as the game was not meant to be played in that way, and so balancing it would be a massive pain in the ass and take loads of time and effort and might still not even work very well.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:15 
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You can add more physicals, to underly the VMs.

We have just upgraded windows server farm at work, from gen 7 to gen 9s. Each gen 9 is equivalent of 4 gen 7s. This gives a massive compute and memory uplift. The only limitation is cost and physical space for more chassis.

I am sure Blizzards, server farm would be sufficient to cover all the users, and not under spec the servers to allow a huge wait.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:15 
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Curiosity wrote:
As far as I can tell, Kov is more or less asking:

Why can’t they overcome the 10k users on a server problem by allowing servers to have 100k people on them, and then a ton of instances layered within the same server to stop everyone trying to butcher the same pig.

And as far as I can tell the answer is:
That would still probably cause unintended effects to the in-game economy as the game was not meant to be played in that way, and so balancing it would be a massive pain in the ass and take loads of time and effort and might still not even work very well.


But that is exactly what has happened as users are on different layers. Or the huge exploit could not have happened.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:15 
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KovacsC wrote:
You can add more physicals, to underly the VMs.

We have just upgraded windows server farm at work, from gen 7 to gen 9s. Each gen 9 is equivalent of 4 gen 7s. This gives a massive compute and memory uplift. The only limitation is cost and physical space for more chassis.

I am sure Blizzards, server farm would be sufficient to cover all the users, and not under spec the servers to allow a huge wait.


I see we're back to the start. This is not a modern game. It is not written to run on scalable or clustered physical resources. The logical split into layers isn't running on some sort of hypervisor that can balance them across physicals. You cannot magically make old software designed for discrete physical compute magically scale horizontally by throwing gear at it.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:17 
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KovacsC wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
As far as I can tell, Kov is more or less asking:

Why can’t they overcome the 10k users on a server problem by allowing servers to have 100k people on them, and then a ton of instances layered within the same server to stop everyone trying to butcher the same pig.

And as far as I can tell the answer is:
That would still probably cause unintended effects to the in-game economy as the game was not meant to be played in that way, and so balancing it would be a massive pain in the ass and take loads of time and effort and might still not even work very well.


But that is exactly what has happened as users are on different layers. Or the huge exploit could not have happened.


All the layers are there for is so that when there is a boss, people don't have to queue forever to have a go at fighting it.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:31 
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Could someone explain to me why there’s a 2 hour wait to play WoW? Asking for a friend. Keep it simple, please

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:55 
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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 13:16 
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DBSnappa wrote:
Could someone explain to me why there’s a 2 hour wait to play WoW? Asking for a friend. Keep it simple, please


Blizzard have released the original world of warcraft, for free.. Too many users want to play and the waiting was 2 hours to start a game. ish

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 14:05 
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Does anyone live physically close enough to Kovacs to go round his house and slap him on behalf of the entire forum?


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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 14:13 
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seamless


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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 14:25 
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Bamba wrote:
Does anyone live physically close enough to Kovacs to go round his house and slap him on behalf of the entire forum?


oh fuck off :)

it just baffles me that the WoW folks are happy with a shit service...

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 15:27 
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KovacsC wrote:
Bamba wrote:
Does anyone live physically close enough to Kovacs to go round his house and slap him on behalf of the entire forum?


oh fuck off :)

it just baffles me that the WoW folks are happy with a shit service...

They're not, they're waiting for the user base to decrease so their game will be better. They can't add servers because the economics of the games would suffer at a later date, they can layer the game to some extent but it's not really designed for it and has already seen issues because of this approach.
You're some kind of tech genius kov, I'm a bicycle mechanic.


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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 15:41 
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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 15:43 
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Location: shropshire, uk
krazywookie wrote:
KovacsC wrote:
Bamba wrote:
Does anyone live physically close enough to Kovacs to go round his house and slap him on behalf of the entire forum?


oh fuck off :)

it just baffles me that the WoW folks are happy with a shit service...

They're not, they're waiting for the user base to decrease so their game will be better. They can't add servers because the economics of the games would suffer at a later date, they can layer the game to some extent but it's not really designed for it and has already seen issues because of this approach.
You're some kind of tech genius kov, I'm a bicycle mechanic.


fair enough...

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MetalAngel wrote:
Kovacs: From 'unresponsive' to 'kebab' in 3.5 seconds


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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 15:52 
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Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 20764
krazywookie wrote:
KovacsC wrote:
Bamba wrote:
Does anyone live physically close enough to Kovacs to go round his house and slap him on behalf of the entire forum?


oh fuck off :)

it just baffles me that the WoW folks are happy with a shit service...

They're not, they're waiting for the user base to decrease so their game will be better. They can't add servers because the economics of the games would suffer at a later date, they can layer the game to some extent but it's not really designed for it and has already seen issues because of this approach.
You're some kind of tech genius kov, I'm a bicycle mechanic.

But also a fireman, which I’m only mentioning because I want to know what Giphy makes of

Giphy "fire bike":
https://media2.giphy.com/media/6o9fitkJ2l7LG/giphy-loop.mp4

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 15:53 
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Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 20764
Pretty sure it’s just pulling random images out now.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 16:57 
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Excellent Member

Joined: 25th Jul, 2010
Posts: 10541
KovacsC wrote:
Bamba wrote:
Does anyone live physically close enough to Kovacs to go round his house and slap him on behalf of the entire forum?


oh fuck off :)

it just baffles me that the WoW folks are happy with a shit service...


Look dude, every aspect of this has now been explained to you multiple times by multiple people. It's perfectly fine if you still don't get it, but, with all the respect and love in the world, could you possibly shut up about it as it's very tedious?


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 Post subject: Re: World of Warcraft goes free-to-play
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 16:59 
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Bad Girl

Joined: 20th Apr, 2008
Posts: 12930
Blizzard don’t give two shits about providing a first class service. I’m going back to Epic Games.


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