Be Excellent To Each Other

I had typed a really angry reply to Pundy, up there, but I can let it go. People just don't "get" grind, usually because their exposure thus far has been 'You Suffer'.

I would say it's noisey mush, but then I have never even heard of the bands you are talking about. Perhaps a fine gentleman such as yourself would point another gentlemen in the direction of mp3s for the partaking of a listening test?

You pick something you'd give to someone "new" to it a taste for exploring the genre.

See? The triumvirate.

No offence to people slightly less cool, like.

Y'see, usually I'd scream something about Discordance Axis and point you at their albums, but it is essentially an overweight Japanese computer programmer screaming about Dreamcast games. However, they were the greatest grind band to have ever existed; their music was just a part of it, presentation was everything. Beautiful lyrics, shiny artwork... Anyway.


They predate Myspace, but here is some. 'Castration Rite' is a fucking blistering song, pretty much defines modern grind, with interestingly choppy riffs and an emphasis on clarity as well as speed. Enjoy.

I'm sure you saw this coming...but...are there meant to be lyrics there or is it really just some screamy noise type stuff?

The actual music I quite like, but it sounds like a toddler walked in a fell over and started crying in the studio ><

This is where we will disagree. Jon Chang is an incredible vocalist, man, he manages to make screaming sound emotionally fraught. If you don't get on with those vocals then grind isn't for you, but, you know, some people like the screams. At least you had a listen

Vocals in this kind of music shouldn't be seen as "singing", it is more a sound texture that is mixed in with the other instruments, that pertains to enhance certain kinds of emotions. Like in a David Lynch film soundtrack where the sound designer (all hail Alan Splet) may add drones and noise to enhance mood and feeling without it having a "narrative" agenda. Michel Chion defines this non narrative, subconscious and emotionally affective sound as Non-Diegetic Sound.

This is part of the reason I love this kind of music. A music which supposes the feelings of intensity/high energy/ferocity/power makes so much more sense with someone obviously experiencing these emotions through their vocal screams, than having some goth dude moaning about these themes lyrically without giving any emotional indication through their vocalisations that these are what they are actually experiencing.

An artist can use an instrument to create emotive sound without using it in its primary functional state. Take the example of guitars on a Sonic Youth record; they are being tortured out of all recognition, yet are used inventively and emotively. John Coltrane played his Sax in (at the time) unimaginably new and deviant ways to portray the emotions he wished to convey. John Zorn (New York Jazz Saxophonist) got so utterly obsessed with Napalm Death in the late 80's that he formed the Grindcore/Jazz hybrid group Painkiller with members of Napalm Death, which crossed the bridge between these two genres effortlessly due to their huge commonalities.

There is so much more to music than just music.

You see, from my point of view, the extreme end of metal (and hardcore punk, too) are a sort of anti-music. It's an artform that despises its listeners, and doesn't want to give them anything remotely enjoyable. The fact that people do enjoy it suggests that either there's some dick-waving going on (which happens in all music, my music is heavier/more avant-garde/more political/faster/crap-unless-you've-taken-lots-of-pills-ier than yours, you prole), some people are wired up wrong in the head, or people train themselves to enjoy it. I suspect all three types are present in the fandom.

Now, personally, I came to guitar music late. I was into electro/rave/new wave/ska and stuff like that when I was a kid, then got into a bit of D'n'B, and stuff like that. Up until 1998 the only rock band I liked was Motorhead, and that was because of the CNC dance remix of Ace of Spades. Then dance music shoved its head so far up its arse that the whole thing exploded in a shower of shite.

Afterwards, gradually, I was exposed to bands like System of a Down, Korn, Limp Bizkit (yes, I know, but shut up a minute) that I realised I liked, not because of their heavyness or lack of it, but because they had interesting rhythm sections. Beats and bass. Mmmm. Then someone leant me a Marilyn Manson CD. Waitaminute, this is just Adam and the Ants for the rock generation. Eventually, I realised that yes, I like rock music, metal and stuff, and for a while devoured all sorts of rocky/metally/punky stuff. Metallica, Pitchshifter, NOFX, Rancid, Skindred, Soil, Sublime, Mad Capsule Markets, Drowning Pool. Some duffers (One Minute Silence, anyone? thought not.) but I've assembled a reasonable collection of rocky/metally type stuff. But I like music with hooks, music that you can dance to, music that has a sense of humour, music that doesn't hate me. Music that wants me to have a good time. Whats the point of music, except to be enjoyed?

I sure as hell don't feel hated by grind, and find its fans a lot more tolerant and accepting than most extreme genres. There's a lot less National Socialism than in black metal, for instance. It is not anti-music, and is often a great deal more complex and difficult to play than you might think.

Merzbow once said 'Noise? Pop music, to me that is noise' and I agree with him. The vast majority of radio music, pop, rock, whatever... That is music that hates me. That is the music that bleats about piracy, despite sales being just jim-dandy. That is the hateful, churn-it-out-and-fuck-it-off industry I can't stand.

Fair enough, you don't like extreme stuff. You're entitled to that opinion. But I'm heartily sick of people telling me that the music that shaped my formative years, that I adore, that means a lot more to me than I can ever imagine a Ronan fucking Keating record ever meaning to anyone, is just noise. That it has no merit. It clearly fucking isn't, and it clearly fucking does

I've been waiting for the GridLink record for about eight years now. I'm incredibly excited about the upcoming release, there's been a number of delays and setbacks. That I can get so worked up over a throwaway comment on an internet forum should tell you just what that ear-destroying shite means to me.

And 'Brain Spiller' was the only good song OMS ever did.

I'm going to come in here to agree with Davydd, not on grind, cos he knows I'm not into that, but with the whole thing of "it's just noise, innit??". That's nonsense. The same thing was said about Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Mahler, Scoenberg, Part, and many, many other composers. It was said about Robert Johnson and Charley Patton. It was said about Jimme Rodgers and the Carter Family.

It was said about Frank Sinatra and the Rat Pack. It was said about the Beatles and the Pink Floyd. It was said about the Sex Pistols, the Clash, the Damnes, Crass, the Exploited, and Killing Joke. It was said about Metallica and Slayer.

It was said about the Ragtime bands, the swing bands, Thelonious Monk and Miles Davis. It was said about Link Wray and Todd Rundgren. It was said about Bill Monroe and Little Richard, and Bill Haley and the Comets.

And in every sngle case, it was wrong.

I don't get the point of playing that fast. Yes, it may be hard to play, but I find it's just not that interesting to actually listen to.

That's fine, as long as you'd say the same to classical, jazz, bluegrass or dance music that's just as fast.

I would, but I can't think of any classical or jazz that is that fast.

"The Flight of the Bumblebee" is that fast, it just doesn't have a pounding rhythm. Some parts of Verdi's operas are pretty fast too, although I can't cite them off the top of my head. I don't know jazz well enough but I've heard stuff that's as fast as any grind. The difference tends to be the beat, which is less emphasised. Is it the pure speed, or the relentlessness that is a problem, because there's a subtle difference in my opinion.

If you don't want to pay 51 sponds for issue 1 of Terrorizer, you could always be a lucky baldy beardy weirdy and stumble over the first 9 issues for a tenner *buffs talons on leather jacket* Now I'm only missing issue 12 to complete my set again. Anyone have that to sell me?

A good song, but I reckon there's at least 3 or 4 songs on their first album that is worth some merit.

I didn't like anything they did after that, though.

So, what, Buddy Rich was a shit drummer? I mean, he played much faster than any grind drummer I could mention.

There are some ludicrous speeds achieved in a great deal of classical. You could definitely blast over Shostakovich.

Point me to where I said that drummer who plays fast = shit drummer.

Buddy was brilliant, Ronnie Verrell was better.

Music that doesn't interest me usually gets put into the 'shit' category.

Wheras I'm quite hap[py to admit that someone is good/amazing/whatever, but I just don't find listening to it interesting.

I can't listen to something 'amazing' without finding it interesting. I'm pretty sure that's not me being weird.

On grindcore:

While I respect the poster who wanted to try it out, such an exercise was inherently doomed to failure. grindcore is like a really hot bath: unbearable at first but you eventually acclimatise. Of course, grindcore is the bath that never cools down, but instead your ears acclimatise. It's degrees, innit. I'm not sure what a quick blas would achieve, short of unlikely epiphany.

When I was a lot younger, Metallica and Megadeth were as heavy as I would go. Sepultura and Pantera weren't music, what Max and Phil did wasn't singing. At some point I got into it, but it admittedly took a while. And it went on like that. Neurosis' songs went on too long, and what they were doing wasn't proper screaming. Then I got into it. On the other side of the coin, Radiohead, Mercury Rev and Flaming Lips weren't heavy enough. Eventually my ears grew to like them. Not physically, silly!

So why listen to music that fast? Why not? That may seem like a bit of a cop-out, but why listen to music as melodic as Annie? As slow as Burning Witch? As dancey as Crydamoure? As gang-obsessed as NWA? Because they are awesome examples of their form, and I see no reason to limit myself to some MOR medium. If I'm going to listen to something fast, why not listen to something really fucking fast? Really fucking slow? really fucking poppy/epic/minimalist?

Oh, and OMS may not have had the best albums, but they were pretty damn good live in around 1998.

Did somebody mention fast music?

Blimey, I like that. Problem with 'Thousand' is that it isn't consistently fast.

I like my gabber around the 240-280bpm mark.

Aw man, just got around to listening to the new Vhernen. Absolutely awesome funeral blackness. Pupil, you should check this shit out.

Nice one Dimrill, cheers. I'll check it out tonight.

Tell me a time and I'll load up slsk for you, duckie.

I'll bung it on when I get home at 5:30pm and leave it on all night.

I'll add you as someone who can send me files, then you can send me whatever horrid music* you think I should hear.

*Seriously, not porn!

Would the December Wolves video directed by Matt Zane count as both then?

I guess I'm gonna find out, ain't I

Despite being a music librarian I still don't get metal.

However, I have written down some of the highly-spoken of names in this forum on order cards, so that my music department isn't negligent in the field of throaty-shouty-thrum-thrum-bash-bash music.

Great work, Pete!

If you get these CDs of screamy ugliness, you should put on a special metul display, maybe getting all your staff to wear corpse paint and wield axes, promoting these wonderful seeds of SATAN to the library going folk of Cardiff. I know that's what I'd do.

To all LastFM users, I created a group for us http://www.last.fm/group/BETEO

Good thinking that man! I heartily approve.

Joined it.

As have I.

I will destroy your METAAAAL! with my massively overinflated They Might Be Giants song count.

Bloody Hell Dimrill, how much music have you sent me this evening?!?! Cheers for all that Where am I best to start with that Primordial and Negurã Bunget stuff?

That Vhernen album is fucking great! Fucked as fuck! Really swimmy and hazy. I love how they end it with that bleak drone track, that's dead me

My house mate told me a band called Nachmystium are playing at the Well in Leeds on Sunday, I'd not heard them, so checked em out on myspace and they're fookin great! I'm def going to see them. Gettin the latest album off Dimmers right now! Do you fancy coming to see em, throughsilver? Ghengis Tron who are playing with em don't sound too good tho.

I also just listened to Municipal Waste for the first time ever, after several years of many people I know shouting at me for not having head them. They sound just like Nuclear Assault, but not as good. What's the point? Why rehash something done (better) 20 years ago?

How do you this? All I know so far is how to open up the box thing, type in favey artist and listen.

Oh, wait. I've now worked out how to click on other people's radio stations. Listening to Pupil's right now. I shall disseminate essential opinion soon.

Everything I've got of Primordial, full discog of Negura Bunget, plus full discog of Vhernen. I have everything Nachmystium have released so far, so feel free to grab. You may like Krieg if you're into them, and also Twilight which features Malefic of Xasthur, Blake from Nachmysitum, Hildolf from Draugar, Wrest from Leviathan and Lord Imperial from Krieg.

@pete soulseek, man.

Just thought - great idea Dimrill, worth posting outside of this Metaaaaaal! only thread though ja?

That's a bit enigmatic, Dimrill. What is soulseek? I cannot see a button or link labeled with it anywhere.

BAFFLED.

Aye, I thought an mod could possibly add it to the IRC/Gamertag thread. Also the non genre specific music thread, I suppose.

Pummed!

*Paff* Done!

Cheers chuck! I've got the Twilight record, its tops! Which Primordial and Negurã Bunget album should I listen too first, so I make sure I get the best first impression of them both?

The Gathering Wilderness and Om

fanks