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"The Talgaryens married brothers and sisters for hundreds of years to preserve their bloodline!"

I just watch some of it and think "Wow, whoever wrote this had real issues." They only seem to do it doggy style, whether they're simulating rape or 'love making' and it's all quite demeaning and there doesn't seem to be any actual need for the constantly aggressive nature of the sex scenes.

We also learnt that he doesn't want to have sex with anyone apart from Ned's wife, and that's why he perhaps betrayed him at the end of the last episode

your explanation of the plot in that scene (which I've already acknowledged in an early post) in no way justifies the overdone lingering shots of naked flesh and female-tennis-player grunting soundtrack.

vikings. They came in boats, not hordes.

flis wrote:

Yeah, it's definitely going for a Deadwood-esque commentary on how sex and sexuality are used to oppress women, but unlike Deadwood it's trying to have its cake and eat it by making the sex scenes titilating for the viewer (as well as repeatedly using sexy-sexy time to EXPOSITION DUMP all over the screen).

My issue with the Dothraki isn't the characters or the obvious Ghengis Khan parallel (blimey, if I had a problem with thinly-veiled metaphor or parallel I wouldn't last long in the fantasy/sci-fi genre!), it's the fact that it's the only place you're seeing non-white characters in the series and they're playing straight to the trope of non-Western people as savages who're "Closer To The Land" than people in more "civilised" cultures. It's tired and cliché and mildly offensive.

basically exporting back to Westeros when she invades

If you liken the 7 kingdoms to Europe, then it makes sense no?

They wouldn't have been many non whites in Europe in the Medieval Times!

It's exactly what happened in the book though. I really don't see where the offense can come from here, unless you're looking for it very hard.

Mr Kissyfur wrote:

It's exactly what happened in the book though. I really don't see where the offense can come from here, unless you're looking for it very hard.

Honestly, I don't really care what happens in the book. I'm judging what I've seen, as would the vast majority of the people watching.

I don't see how you can't see why it's a bit offensive, unless you're trying very hard not to understand.

Malc wrote:

If you liken the 7 kingdoms to Europe, then it makes sense no?

They wouldn't have been many non whites in Europe in the Medieval Times!

1) It's not medieval Europe, it's a fantasy story.

2) I understand both what the real-world inspiration for the Dothraki is and what their thematic purpose in the story seems to be. But if the only place you're seeing people who aren't white is as part of the group who're are representing the wild, untamed cultural id that, to me, is both a little icky and a lot of a cliché.

No, I can't see why it's offensive.

Mr Kissyfur wrote:

No, I can't see why it's offensive.

I've explained it in really small words, chap.

But we've been down this road often enough to know that there's probably no benefit for either of us in belabouring this point any further. So, agree to disagree or whatever.

Aria's dancing-master.

I loved that the dim-witted sister thought that she'd actually been learning to dance, though.

I mentioned it! I did stick it in a spoiler tag though (because I was identifying his character by a plot point he was participating in).

He had the best line in the episode this week, too.

In other this week news:

ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!

Aria's dancing-master.

I loved that the dim-witted sister thought that she'd actually been learning to dance, though.

Rodafowa wrote:

ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!

Aria's dancing-master.

I loved that the dim-witted sister thought that she'd actually been learning to dance, though.

Does he actually die? I reckon he wins, or at least escapes. (ps: Not read the books)

Go ask that in the book forums and see the result! Nobody knows... yet

Does he actually die? I reckon he wins, or at least escapes. (ps: Not read the books)

GRRM has written the next episode I believe

ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!

there are rumours of a diversion from the book sometime soon, which I expect will come in the next episode.

What time span do the six (6?) books cover? If it's longer than a few years, I wonder if the TV show will compress it (to work around the youngish actors not getting older quickly enough).

WHAT DO YOU MEAN "I WANT TO WATCH GLEE NOW?" YOU HAVE CAR INSURANCE TO SORT OUT WOMAN!

I wish I hadn't read spoilers on various Ice and Fire wikis, because I knew what would happen to ol' ned

Pod wrote:

I wish I hadn't read spoilers on various Ice and Fire wikis, because I knew what would happen to ol' ned

Pod wrote:

I wish I hadn't read spoilers on various Ice and Fire wikis, because I knew what would happen to ol' ned

ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!

Pod wrote:

I wish I hadn't read spoilers on various Ice and Fire wikis, because I knew what would happen to ol' ned

I really hope that isnt a spoiler :'(

The reactions of "people who read the book" and "people who didn't read the book" to ep 9:

Casting Sean Bean in the role is a pretty damned big spoiler of what's going to happen to him

Of course,

ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!

Casting Sean Bean in the role is a pretty damned big spoiler of what's going to happen to him

I remember Sharpe having 9 lives

Author:	Doctor Glyndwr [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:53 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
No, Flis means Daenerys and Viserys Targaryen. Although there was a throwaway line from Cersai which mitigated flis's point a little: ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view! "The Talgaryens married brothers and sisters for hundreds of years to preserve their bloodline!"

Author:	Rodafowa [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 13:01 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
flis wrote: I just watch some of it and think "Wow, whoever wrote this had real issues." They only seem to do it doggy style, whether they're simulating rape or 'love making' and it's all quite demeaning and there doesn't seem to be any actual need for the constantly aggressive nature of the sex scenes. Yeah, it's definitely going for a Deadwood-esque commentary on how sex and sexuality are used to oppress women, but unlike Deadwood it's trying to have its cake and eat it by making the sex scenes titilating for the viewer (as well as repeatedly using sexy-sexy time to EXPOSITION DUMP all over the screen). My issue with the Dothraki isn't the characters or the obvious Ghengis Khan parallel (blimey, if I had a problem with thinly-veiled metaphor or parallel I wouldn't last long in the fantasy/sci-fi genre!), it's the fact that it's the only place you're seeing non-white characters in the series and they're playing straight to the trope of non-Western people as savages who're "Closer To The Land" than people in more "civilised" cultures. It's tired and cliché and mildly offensive.

Author:	Malc [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 13:04 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
If you liken the 7 kingdoms to Europe, then it makes sense no? They wouldn't have been many non whites in Europe in the Medieval Times! Malc

Author:	Malc [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 13:06 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
Also the lesbian scene was to "teach" the prostitute from Winterfell how to fuck properly. ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view! We also learnt that he doesn't want to have sex with anyone apart from Ned's wife, and that's why he perhaps betrayed him at the end of the last episode Only a spoiler if you haven't seen the last episode on sky atlantic MAlc

Author:	MaliA [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 13:16 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
Re: Dothraki I haven't really seen any race contetations involving the way their society is portrayed, I viewed it more as a society in which to the alpha male go the spoils and everyone else picks the scraps up (see the issue about the ponytails). I reasoned to myself that the reason the other kingdoms were afraid of them is that they represented the way of life that they have so struggled to move from. I suppose representing the wilder side of things which the civilised rulers of the kingdoms were keen to avoid as best they could, given that none of the kings have seemed to be particularly good at fighting. This ties in with the "north of the wall" issues they have, and not wanting to cross it, and keeping the seven kingdoms together.

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Game Of Thrones (TV) https://www.beexcellenttoeachother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7029	Page 2 of 46

Author:	Doctor Glyndwr [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 13:17 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
You're missing the point on both fronts, Malc. For one, there were plenty of non-white advanced societies in the world; the Egyptians were building pyramids when the Europeans were still trying not to starve to death. There's no reason Game of Thrones couldn't draw on that stuff for a change and give the Dothraki some knowledge or tech that the Westeros folk don't understand. For example, the stirrup was invented in Asia and the Romans had no knowledge of it; it didn't arrive in Europe until Asians imported the design hundreds of years later. For two, your explanation of the plot in that scene (which I've already acknowledged in an early post) in no way justifies the overdone lingering shots of naked flesh and female-tennis-player grunting soundtrack.

Author:	MrChris [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 13:35 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
Doctor Glyndwr wrote: your explanation of the plot in that scene (which I've already acknowledged in an early post) in no way justifies the overdone lingering shots of naked flesh and female-tennis-player grunting soundtrack. Honestly, I think that sort of thing is self-justifying. /teenager

Author:	Malc [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 13:35 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
I did think it was a crap scene, but it did make sense in explaining the sort of man that he is. I just thought it was badly done. As for the Dothraki, if you take them as Mongols pushing West across Europe, then it does make sense. Yeah, there are other races that could have been used, but if that's what the author/producer wanted to convey they wouldn't choose to use them. How many non-Europeans have attacked Northern Europe through History? (I'm excluding the Moors attacking Spain/Portugal here) Malc

Author:	MaliA [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 13:41 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
vikings. They came in boats, not hordes.

Author:	Malc [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 13:42 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
MaliA wrote: vikings. They came in boats, not hordes. They're European. Malc

Author:	MrChris [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 13:43 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
Rodafowa wrote: flis wrote: I just watch some of it and think "Wow, whoever wrote this had real issues." They only seem to do it doggy style, whether they're simulating rape or 'love making' and it's all quite demeaning and there doesn't seem to be any actual need for the constantly aggressive nature of the sex scenes. Yeah, it's definitely going for a Deadwood-esque commentary on how sex and sexuality are used to oppress women, but unlike Deadwood it's trying to have its cake and eat it by making the sex scenes titilating for the viewer (as well as repeatedly using sexy-sexy time to EXPOSITION DUMP all over the screen). My issue with the Dothraki isn't the characters or the obvious Ghengis Khan parallel (blimey, if I had a problem with thinly-veiled metaphor or parallel I wouldn't last long in the fantasy/sci-fi genre!), it's the fact that it's the only place you're seeing non-white characters in the series and they're playing straight to the trope of non-Western people as savages who're "Closer To The Land" than people in more "civilised" cultures. It's tired and cliché and mildly offensive. It's exactly what happened in the book though. As malc has pointed out, the Seven Kingdoms is Europe, and the stuff over the Shining Sea or whatever it is is the Middle and Far East. The Dothraki are, and are supposed to be, Mongol-esque. It's all party of Dinarys's character development later on - driven by the contrast between her and her whiney brother's regal background and the culture of the big bad horse botherer she ends up getting given to. A culture which she ends up buying into, and then ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view! basically exporting back to Westeros when she invades In the book you see the Dothraki's interactions with the other pseudo-Arab civilisations over there, most of which are vastly, vastly more advanced than the Kingdoms. And all of whom are looked down on (and pounded on) by the Dothraki. I presume they haven't got round to them yet. The Seven Kingdoms are viewed by most other civilisations as being a bit backwards, although that obviously hasn't become clear as yet in the telly version. But in any case, the individuals within it who are the main characters of the books (and presumably the telly series) are largely execrable, and when there's a ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view! civil war later the way the common folk are treated by all sides is a real insight into the values (or lack thereof) at the heart of the Kingdoms. I really don't see where the offense can come from here, unless you're looking for it very hard.

Author:	Rodafowa [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 13:56 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
Malc wrote: If you liken the 7 kingdoms to Europe, then it makes sense no? They wouldn't have been many non whites in Europe in the Medieval Times! 1) It's not medieval Europe, it's a fantasy story. 2) I understand both what the real-world inspiration for the Dothraki is and what their thematic purpose in the story seems to be. But if the only place you're seeing people who aren't white is as part of the group who're are representing the wild, untamed cultural id that, to me, is both a little icky and a lot of a cliché. The net result is that in this series we're only being shown people who aren't white as hootin' hollerin' unruly savages with natural rhythm who can only be kept in line by force, whose gatherings look like a cheap strip club and if given the chance would come over here and rape all our women. I don't want to make it sound more serious than it is, or like it's some sort of premeditated hate crime that's being carried out to Keep Darkie Down but it does impact my enjoyment of the series to a degree and I think it's worthy of comment.

Author:	Rodafowa [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 14:00 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
Mr Kissyfur wrote: It's exactly what happened in the book though. I really don't see where the offense can come from here, unless you're looking for it very hard. Honestly, I don't really care what happens in the book. I'm judging what I've seen, as would the vast majority of the people watching. I don't see how you can't see why it's a bit offensive, unless you're trying very hard not to understand.

Author:	MrChris [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 14:05 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
Rodafowa wrote: Mr Kissyfur wrote: It's exactly what happened in the book though. I really don't see where the offense can come from here, unless you're looking for it very hard. Honestly, I don't really care what happens in the book. I'm judging what I've seen, as would the vast majority of the people watching. I don't see how you can't see why it's a bit offensive, unless you're trying very hard not to understand. No, I can't see why it's offensive. TV adaptation is done of a book. Adaptation leaves out, due to the exigencies of the medium, some bits of the book. End result is that a dark-skinned culture rides around on horses, generally being scary and awesome, but other dark-skinned cultures aren't (as yet) part of the TV series. If that dark-skinned culture (and the culture is bloody intrinsic to later plot developments) had been changed, as Doc G has suggested, not only would fans of the books be spitting blood, you'd have cocked up the plot. You really do have to want that to be offensive. Particularly as the one white-skinned culture portrayed is largely populated by ghastly cunts. Just wait until the white-skinned islander culture comes into it - they make the Dothraki look like tea-sipping ladies what lunch.

Author:	MrChris [ Sat Jun 04, 2011 23:48 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
Halfway through episode 2. Tyrion is perfect. PERFECT. It's been niggling, but I've realised Catelyn should be better looking. She looks how I'd imagined Bree of Tarth looked like. All well sexist and that, but there we are.

Author:	Dr Lave [ Wed Jun 08, 2011 23:15 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
So Bronn is played by no other than..... Jerome of Robson and Jerome fame. Well fuck me. (Poss spoilers: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Jerome_Flynn)

Author:	Malc [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 14:08 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
Rodafowa wrote: Malc wrote: If you liken the 7 kingdoms to Europe, then it makes sense no? They wouldn't have been many non whites in Europe in the Medieval Times! 1) It's not medieval Europe, it's a fantasy story. 2) I understand both what the real-world inspiration for the Dothraki is and what their thematic purpose in the story seems to be. But if the only place you're seeing people who aren't white is as part of the group who're are representing the wild, untamed cultural id that, to me, is both a little icky and a lot of a cliché. But it's based on Medieval Northern Europe... Malc

Author:	Rodafowa [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 14:15 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
Mr Kissyfur wrote: No, I can't see why it's offensive. I've explained it in really small words, chap. But we've been down this road often enough to know that there's probably no benefit for either of us in belabouring this point any further. So, agree to disagree or whatever.

Author:	MrChris [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 14:17 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
Rodafowa wrote: Mr Kissyfur wrote: No, I can't see why it's offensive. I've explained it in really small words, chap. Weeeeelll, no. In all fairness what you've done is just repeat "this is offensive" in progressively more patronising (or just exasperated ) terms but yeah, agree to disagree. Quote: But we've been down this road often enough to know that there's probably no benefit for either of us in belabouring this point any further. So, agree to disagree or whatever. Indeed. Anyway - I'll be interested to watch this to see how they've dealt with the stuff Over There with the Taragyens in the absence of their original benefactor and his city.

Author:	Pod [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 15:33 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
I'm massively offended that the Wildling people are clearly meant to be Scottish.

Author:	MrChris [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 16:18 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
Yay! I just found this streamed online. Score!

Author:	GovernmentYard [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 17:42 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
I think both the Dothraki and the naked womens are proper ace.

Author:	myp [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 18:44 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
This sounds more and more like something I should avoid.

Author:	MrChris [ Sat Jun 04, 2011 22:40 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
Right - just watched episode 1 with Mrs K. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. The actress they cast as Arya (my fave character other than Tyrion) is perfect. I would not have cast Sean Bean as Ned, though, good as he is. As I was reading the books I had someone a bit more dignified and distinguished in mind. Perhaps Terence Stamp or Liam Neeson. As an aside, as far as I could tell from Ep1, the Dothraki were Caucasians with tans, other than 4 people, and there were at least 2 ginger ones that I spotted. Therefore more of a culture than a race, obviously. So, y'know, wind your necks in.

Author:	Pod [ Wed Jun 08, 2011 23:17 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
Didn't someone put that a few pages back? I went back and looked but can't find it. If I didn't read it here, then where _did_ I read it?!?

Author:	Rodafowa [ Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:30 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
I mentioned it! I did stick it in a spoiler tag though (because I was identifying his character by a plot point he was participating in). He had the best line in the episode this week, too. In other this week news: ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view! Aria's dancing-master. I loved that the dim-witted sister thought that she'd actually been learning to dance, though.

Author:	Pod [ Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:39 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
Rodafowa wrote: I mentioned it! I did stick it in a spoiler tag though (because I was identifying his character by a plot point he was participating in). He had the best line in the episode this week, too. In other this week news: ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view! Aria's dancing-master. I loved that the dim-witted sister thought that she'd actually been learning to dance, though. Does he actually die? I reckon he wins, or at least escapes. (ps: Not read the books)

Author:	Trooper [ Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:04 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
Pod wrote: Rodafowa wrote: I mentioned it! I did stick it in a spoiler tag though (because I was identifying his character by a plot point he was participating in). He had the best line in the episode this week, too. In other this week news: ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view! Aria's dancing-master. I loved that the dim-witted sister thought that she'd actually been learning to dance, though. Does he actually die? I reckon he wins, or at least escapes. (ps: Not read the books) ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view! Go ask that in the book forums and see the result! Nobody knows... yet

Author:	Doctor Glyndwr [ Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:06 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
What time span do the six (6?) books cover? If it's longer than a few years, I wonder if the TV show will compress it (to work around the youngish actors not getting older quickly enough).

Author:	Rodafowa [ Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:25 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
Pod wrote: Does he actually die? I reckon he wins, or at least escapes. (ps: Not read the books) STOP GETTING MY HOPES UP YOU MONSTER.

Author:	Pod [ Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:43 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
Trooper wrote: GRRM has written the next episode I believe ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view! there are rumours of a diversion from the book sometime soon, which I expect will come in the next episode. Has this happened yet?!!! (The diversion, not the GRRM written episode). Also: I want to belive this guy is still alive. ps: There's probably spoilers at that link. I don't know.

Author:	MrChris [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 21:23 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
Doctor Glyndwr wrote: What time span do the six (6?) books cover? If it's longer than a few years, I wonder if the TV show will compress it (to work around the youngish actors not getting older quickly enough). Christ, really short, actually - maybe two years to the end of book 4 part 2? Will be watching ep 9 when Mrs K gets home from the pub. Squeeeee! Arya's Braavosi instructor is one of my favourite characters in all the books. After Arya and Tyrion, obv. And Sam - Sam is brilliant in the books (really good, well drawn, strong, believable character) and looks to be getting that way in the series. And yes, Sansa is that fucking dim. She gets dimmer, too.

Author:	MaliA [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 21:24 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
I'm meant to be watching it at the moment, but had to wait until MrsA came home. Who now wants to talk about courgette plants.

Author:	Trooper [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 21:25 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
Just watched it, best. episode. ever.

Author:	MaliA [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 21:26 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
WHAT DO YOU MEAN "I WANT TO WATCH GLEE NOW?" YOU HAVE CAR INSURANCE TO SORT OUT WOMAN!

Author:	MrChris [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 21:29 ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Of Thrones
MaliA wrote: WHAT DO YOU MEAN "I WANT TO WATCH GLEE NOW?" YOU HAVE CAR INSURANCE TO SORT OUT WOMAN! Said MrsA.