Be Excellent To Each Other

No, Flis means Daenerys and Viserys Targaryen. Although there was a throwaway line from Cersai which mitigated flis's point a little:

Yeah, it's definitely going for a Deadwood-esque commentary on how sex and sexuality are used to oppress women, but unlike Deadwood it's trying to have its cake and eat it by making the sex scenes titilating for the viewer (as well as repeatedly using sexy-sexy time to EXPOSITION DUMP all over the screen).

My issue with the Dothraki isn't the characters or the obvious Ghengis Khan parallel (blimey, if I had a problem with thinly-veiled metaphor or parallel I wouldn't last long in the fantasy/sci-fi genre!), it's the fact that it's the only place you're seeing non-white characters in the series and they're playing straight to the trope of non-Western people as savages who're "Closer To The Land" than people in more "civilised" cultures. It's tired and cliché and mildly offensive.

If you liken the 7 kingdoms to Europe, then it makes sense no?

They wouldn't have been many non whites in Europe in the Medieval Times!

Malc

Also the lesbian scene was to "teach" the prostitute from Winterfell how to fuck properly.




Only a spoiler if you haven't seen the last episode on sky atlantic

MAlc

Re: Dothraki

I haven't really seen any race contetations involving the way their society is portrayed, I viewed it more as a society in which to the alpha male go the spoils and everyone else picks the scraps up (see the issue about the ponytails). I reasoned to myself that the reason the other kingdoms were afraid of them is that they represented the way of life that they have so struggled to move from. I suppose representing the wilder side of things which the civilised rulers of the kingdoms were keen to avoid as best they could, given that none of the kings have seemed to be particularly good at fighting. This ties in with the "north of the wall" issues they have, and not wanting to cross it, and keeping the seven kingdoms together.

You're missing the point on both fronts, Malc. For one, there were plenty of non-white advanced societies in the world; the Egyptians were building pyramids when the Europeans were still trying not to starve to death. There's no reason Game of Thrones couldn't draw on that stuff for a change and give the Dothraki some knowledge or tech that the Westeros folk don't understand. For example, the stirrup was invented in Asia and the Romans had no knowledge of it; it didn't arrive in Europe until Asians imported the design hundreds of years later.

For two, your explanation of the plot in that scene (which I've already acknowledged in an early post) in no way justifies the overdone lingering shots of naked flesh and female-tennis-player grunting soundtrack.

Honestly, I think that sort of thing is self-justifying. /teenager

I did think it was a crap scene, but it did make sense in explaining the sort of man that he is. I just thought it was badly done.

As for the Dothraki, if you take them as Mongols pushing West across Europe, then it does make sense.

Yeah, there are other races that could have been used, but if that's what the author/producer wanted to convey they wouldn't choose to use them.

How many non-Europeans have attacked Northern Europe through History? (I'm excluding the Moors attacking Spain/Portugal here)

Malc

vikings. They came in boats, not hordes.

They're European.

Malc

It's exactly what happened in the book though. As malc has pointed out, the Seven Kingdoms is Europe, and the stuff over the Shining Sea or whatever it is is the Middle and Far East. The Dothraki are, and are supposed to be, Mongol-esque. It's all party of Dinarys's character development later on - driven by the contrast between her and her whiney brother's regal background and the culture of the big bad horse botherer she ends up getting given to. A culture which she ends up buying into, and then

In the book you see the Dothraki's interactions with the other pseudo-Arab civilisations over there, most of which are vastly, vastly more advanced than the Kingdoms. And all of whom are looked down on (and pounded on) by the Dothraki. I presume they haven't got round to them yet.

The Seven Kingdoms are viewed by most other civilisations as being a bit backwards, although that obviously hasn't become clear as yet in the telly version. But in any case, the individuals within it who are the main characters of the books (and presumably the telly series) are largely execrable, and when there's a later the way the common folk are treated by all sides is a real insight into the values (or lack thereof) at the heart of the Kingdoms.

I really don't see where the offense can come from here, unless you're looking for it very hard.

1) It's not medieval Europe, it's a fantasy story.

2) I understand both what the real-world inspiration for the Dothraki is and what their thematic purpose in the story seems to be. But if the only place you're seeing people who aren't white is as part of the group who're are representing the wild, untamed cultural id that, to me, is both a little icky and a lot of a cliché.

The net result is that in this series we're only being shown people who aren't white as hootin' hollerin' unruly savages with natural rhythm who can only be kept in line by force, whose gatherings look like a cheap strip club and if given the chance would come over here and rape all our women. I don't want to make it sound more serious than it is, or like it's some sort of premeditated hate crime that's being carried out to Keep Darkie Down but it does impact my enjoyment of the series to a degree and I think it's worthy of comment.

Honestly, I don't really care what happens in the book. I'm judging what I've seen, as would the vast majority of the people watching.

I don't see how you can't see why it's a bit offensive, unless you're trying very hard not to understand.

No, I can't see why it's offensive. TV adaptation is done of a book. Adaptation leaves out, due to the exigencies of the medium, some bits of the book. End result is that a dark-skinned culture rides around on horses, generally being scary and awesome, but other dark-skinned cultures aren't (as yet) part of the TV series. If that dark-skinned culture (and the culture is bloody intrinsic to later plot developments) had been changed, as Doc G has suggested, not only would fans of the books be spitting blood, you'd have cocked up the plot.

You really do have to want that to be offensive. Particularly as the one white-skinned culture portrayed is largely populated by ghastly cunts. Just wait until the white-skinned islander culture comes into it - they make the Dothraki look like tea-sipping ladies what lunch.

But it's based on Medieval Northern Europe...

Malc

I've explained it in really small words, chap. But we've been down this road often enough to know that there's probably no benefit for either of us in belabouring this point any further. So, agree to disagree or whatever.

Weeeeelll, no. In all fairness what you've done is just repeat "this is offensive" in progressively more patronising (or just exasperated ) terms but yeah, agree to disagree.



Indeed.

Anyway - I'll be interested to watch this to see how they've dealt with the stuff Over There with the Taragyens in the absence of their original benefactor and his city.

I'm massively offended that the Wildling people are clearly meant to be Scottish.

Yay! I just found this streamed online. Score!

I think both the Dothraki and the naked womens are proper ace.

This sounds more and more like something I should avoid.

Right - just watched episode 1 with Mrs K. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. The actress they cast as Arya (my fave character other than Tyrion) is perfect.

I would not have cast Sean Bean as Ned, though, good as he is. As I was reading the books I had someone a bit more dignified and distinguished in mind. Perhaps Terence Stamp or Liam Neeson.

As an aside, as far as I could tell from Ep1, the Dothraki were Caucasians with tans, other than 4 people, and there were at least 2 ginger ones that I spotted. Therefore more of a culture than a race, obviously. So, y'know, wind your necks in.

Halfway through episode 2. Tyrion is perfect. PERFECT.

It's been niggling, but I've realised Catelyn should be better looking. She looks how I'd imagined Bree of Tarth looked like. All well sexist and that, but there we are.

So Bronn is played by no other than.....

Jerome of Robson and Jerome fame.

Well fuck me.



(Poss spoilers: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Jerome_Flynn)

Didn't someone put that a few pages back? I went back and looked but can't find it.


If I didn't read it here, then where _did_ I read it?!?

I mentioned it! I did stick it in a spoiler tag though (because I was identifying his character by a plot point he was participating in).

He had the best line in the episode this week, too.

In other this week news:

Does he actually die? I reckon he wins, or at least escapes. (ps: Not read the books)

What time span do the six (6?) books cover? If it's longer than a few years, I wonder if the TV show will compress it (to work around the youngish actors not getting older quickly enough).

STOP GETTING MY HOPES UP YOU MONSTER.

Has this happened yet?!!! (The diversion, not the GRRM written episode).


Also:
I want to belive this guy is still alive. ps: There's probably spoilers at that link. I don't know.

Christ, really short, actually - maybe two years to the end of book 4 part 2?

Will be watching ep 9 when Mrs K gets home from the pub. Squeeeee!

Arya's Braavosi instructor is one of my favourite characters in all the books. After Arya and Tyrion, obv. And Sam - Sam is brilliant in the books (really good, well drawn, strong, believable character) and looks to be getting that way in the series.

And yes, Sansa is that fucking dim. She gets dimmer, too.

I'm meant to be watching it at the moment, but had to wait until MrsA came home. Who now wants to talk about courgette plants.

Just watched it, best. episode. ever.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN "I WANT TO WATCH GLEE NOW?" YOU HAVE CAR INSURANCE TO SORT OUT WOMAN!

Said MrsA.

yeh i lost out to the Glee season finale also will watch the episode soon

http://one-tvshows.eu/tv/links/show/gam ... /9/baelor/ for them as has no Sky plus.

just watched the first episode of this. It is quite good.

Good episode. Will each again tomorrow afternoon when I can pay proper attention.

but by reading the books

I really hope that isnt a spoiler

It's your fault for not watching the 9th episode yet.

Or even the 8th and 7th if you're that far behind. I shall SPOILERISE my post to prevent others like you and I from weeping. Hopefully you could sopilerise the quote of my previously unedited post!

Spoiler for ep9:

Of course,

"Robson And" Jerome Flynn is rapidly becoming one of my favourite things about this series. More of his laconic, understated badassery, please.

Well, that was a VERY understated finale.

Just watched all ten episodes of this in the last few days.


Oooooh, it's rather good. Really well cast. There are very few people that don't fit my memory of their characters from the books. I was a bit unsure about Jon Snow for a while, but he's kinda won me over.

WANT MORE NOW!

Season 2 is coming in the Spring, which will be Book Two (and good luck compressing that down to 10 episodes).

I've heard that Book 3 will be split into Season 3 and Season 4, which means if they ever wanted to actually film all of the books it'd take about ten years. There also seemed to be a fatalism to the interviews I saw, in that they don't actually think they'll get to the end. Which is potentially very annoying.