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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:51 
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I'm not sure how willing I am to put my shoddy workmanship up for ridicule on the internet (I know, too late).
I'll go and do that now and test things again with all the bulbs out, what should I be looking for?


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:00 
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baron of techno

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What we're trying to do is verify that N is definitely connected to one of the pins in the bulb socket.

If you do that with the room light switch off, you should get a connection (meter goes to 0) on one of the pins and not the other.

You can probably PM me the photo if you want :)


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:03 
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Ok, with no bulbs in, each socket has one pin that sends the needle over to the right and one that does nothing. I'm guessing that's how it's supposed to be?

As for the wiring, from the top...
2 black wires
1 slightly exposed bit of wire connected to all 3 red wires under the tape (this was the bit I redid this morning to make the other lights work)
1 black wire with red sleeve
1 pc of blue wire because the earth isn't long enough (I realise this is potentially a really bad idea)

The other side of that terminal block was prewired and connectes to a plug that you can just see on the left of the picture (with the brown and blue markings on the side), this connectes to a socket on the fan.

In order to carry out the connectivity tests, I put one probe into the second screw down on the left hand side (the one opposite the brown wire).


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:05 
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kalmar wrote:
What we're trying to do is verify that N is definitely connected to one of the pins in the bulb socket.

If you do that with the room light switch off, you should get a connection (meter goes to 0) on one of the pins and not the other.

You can probably PM me the photo if you want :)


Well, I've got something right, I'm just not sure what it means.

Oops, too late.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:48 
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baron of techno

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NO!

Stop right there, it's all wrong!


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:49 
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Also, can you stop poking whatever it is that's breaking the forum? Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:50 
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kalmar wrote:
NO!

Stop right there, it's all wrong!


Care to elaborate?


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:51 
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baron of techno

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(sorry, I wanted to point that out before you tried it again!)

You've wired it backwards.
The pair of black wires must go to N (the second connection down)

The bundle of red wires must go to fan (the top connection)



Seriously change that blue wire to a yellow/green one.

Swap that around and send another photo to double check :)


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:55 
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:facepalm: I even re-read that this morning because it suddenly dawned on me I might have them the wrong way round, but still decided it was right. :facepalm:


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:55 
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baron of techno

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:facepalm: indeed :)

Now, you're nearly there, just proceed with caution!

Your test showed that the wiring inside the light is OK btw.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:00 
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kalmar wrote:
:facepalm: indeed :)

Now, you're nearly there, just proceed with caution!

Your test showed that the wiring inside the light is OK btw.


Mega :facepalm:
Everything works now, I knew there was nothing wrong with my electrical skills, just my reading ability.
Er, where can I get a very small strand of earth cable?

Edit - it might have helped if when I told you how I'd wired it up, I'd based it how I'd actually wired it up, rather than how you'd told me to do it. :facepalm:
Can we get a bigger facepalm dimlie please?
Preferably like this one.
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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:02 
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Lord Humongous

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Cut up an old monitor/kettle lead?

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:04 
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baron of techno

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Zardoz wrote:
Cut up an old monitor/kettle lead?


Good idea there. Or, B&Q sell it by the metre for pennies.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:05 
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Zardoz wrote:
Cut up an old monitor/kettle lead?


Good idea, I'll go see what I've got...

Ok, done, but what do I do with this kettle I've got hanging from the ceiling? :p


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:05 
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baron of techno

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Man alive though.
Phew.
*shakes head*

I've learnt my lesson, I am never giving electrical advice again :o


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:08 
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kalmar wrote:
Man alive though.
Phew.
*shakes head*

I've learnt my lesson, I am never giving electrical advice again :o


Just make sure you can give it to someone that can read (and is unlikely to poke their finger where they shouldn't poke it).
Seriously though, thanks for all your help, there will be many beers with your name on next time we meet.

One more stupid question, I've got several unused monitor leads, including a 2 pin one that's obviously never going to get used. Am I right in thinking that won't actually have any earth cable in it?


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:10 
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baron of techno

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:D
Well done though, you made it!

And yes that'll only have 2 wires in it, blue and brown.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:11 
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Lord Humongous

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So tonight's the night then?

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:14 
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See? I do have a vague understanding of what I'm doing.
Definitely the last question, the earth from the ceiling is a 3-core cable. Do I need to worry about that (other than making sure all 3 cores are attached to earth), as in, do I need to go out and buy some 3-core earth cable, or will this single strand stuff I've ripped from a monitor cable be ok?


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:14 
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Joans wrote:
Ok, slightly new development. It would appear that some of the upstairs lights don't work, but some of them do (so the fuse hasn't been tripped).
I'm going to take a reasonably educated guess and say that the two lights that aren't working come after the bedroom light in the loop and the power isn't getting past the fan to power these other lights?
More updates in the morning when I take everything apart again.


sounds liek you have not connected all the lightung ring main (all those red wires) back together.

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:16 
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Zardoz wrote:
So tonight's the night then?

For Grim... to have the lights on? Well, I'm away for the night, so it might be.
Gate still needs fixing though. :p


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:18 
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KovacsC wrote:
Joans wrote:
Ok, slightly new development. It would appear that some of the upstairs lights don't work, but some of them do (so the fuse hasn't been tripped).
I'm going to take a reasonably educated guess and say that the two lights that aren't working come after the bedroom light in the loop and the power isn't getting past the fan to power these other lights?
More updates in the morning when I take everything apart again.


sounds liek you have not connected all the lightung ring main (all those red wires) back together.


Yup, also Michael Jackson's dead.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:18 
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baron of techno

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The 3 cores are 3 separate earth wires from the cables coming in - two from the "loop" and one to the switch. Notice that the outer sleeving is loose, it's added by the electrician.

They must remain very joined firmly together!
You can use a single piece of flex as you have done to go to the fan, but it does have to be green-yellow.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:19 
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I think it's fitting that my 5000th post was an ample demonstration of my incompetence. :'(


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:20 
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kalmar wrote:
The 3 cores are 3 separate earth wires from the cables coming in - two from the "loop" and one to the switch. Notice that the outer sleeving is loose, it's added by the electrician.

They must remain very joined firmly together!
You can use a single piece of flex as you have done to go to the fan, but it does have to be green-yellow.


I did consult with my lovely assistant who assured me that there was "probably no difference" between blue wire, brown wire or yellow/green wire. :luv:


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:23 
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Fitness Nut...

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Joans wrote:
KovacsC wrote:
Joans wrote:
Ok, slightly new development. It would appear that some of the upstairs lights don't work, but some of them do (so the fuse hasn't been tripped).
I'm going to take a reasonably educated guess and say that the two lights that aren't working come after the bedroom light in the loop and the power isn't getting past the fan to power these other lights?
More updates in the morning when I take everything apart again.


sounds liek you have not connected all the lightung ring main (all those red wires) back together.


Yup, also Michael Jackson's dead.


no need to be sarcastic :kiss:

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:25 
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baron of techno

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Joans wrote:
kalmar wrote:
The 3 cores are 3 separate earth wires from the cables coming in - two from the "loop" and one to the switch. Notice that the outer sleeving is loose, it's added by the electrician.

They must remain very joined firmly together!
You can use a single piece of flex as you have done to go to the fan, but it does have to be green-yellow.


I did consult with my lovely assistant who assured me that there was "probably no difference" between blue wire, brown wire or yellow/green wire. :luv:


Whilst she's technically correct (the best kind etc), there is potentially a major difference for the next poor sod who gets to change the light :hug:


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:25 
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Joans wrote:
kalmar wrote:
You can use a single piece of flex as you have done to go to the fan, but it does have to be green-yellow.
I did consult with my lovely assistant who assured me that there was "probably no difference" between blue wire, brown wire or yellow/green wire. :luv:
Possibly no electrical difference, but anyone looking at it in the future may go "What the fuck is this blue shit for?" and kill themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:27 
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Also, using the old wiring for anything you add is illegal, innit?

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:29 
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kalmar wrote:
Joans wrote:
kalmar wrote:
The 3 cores are 3 separate earth wires from the cables coming in - two from the "loop" and one to the switch. Notice that the outer sleeving is loose, it's added by the electrician.

They must remain very joined firmly together!
You can use a single piece of flex as you have done to go to the fan, but it does have to be green-yellow.


I did consult with my lovely assistant who assured me that there was "probably no difference" between blue wire, brown wire or yellow/green wire. :luv:


Whilst she's technically correct (the best kind etc), there is potentially a major difference for the next poor sod who gets to change the light :hug:


Yeah, but I wasn't really thinking about them. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:30 
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Craster wrote:
Also, using the old wiring for anything you add is illegal, innit?


He's just sampling it


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:31 
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baron of techno

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Craster wrote:
Also, using the old wiring for anything you add is illegal, innit?


No.

Using the old wiring colours (or wrong colours) for any wiring you add is illegal. But then so is adding any wiring in the first place, nowadays.

You're allowed to connect an appliance, which is more or less what Joans has done (replacing the original junction box is off-limits though come to think of it).


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:31 
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Some helpful bugger used red as negative and black as positive for the stereo in a car I bought. I pulled it out and fitted my sweet Sony head unit and the magic blue smoke escaped.

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:31 
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baron of techno

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Joans wrote:
kalmar wrote:
Joans wrote:
kalmar wrote:
The 3 cores are 3 separate earth wires from the cables coming in - two from the "loop" and one to the switch. Notice that the outer sleeving is loose, it's added by the electrician.

They must remain very joined firmly together!
You can use a single piece of flex as you have done to go to the fan, but it does have to be green-yellow.


I did consult with my lovely assistant who assured me that there was "probably no difference" between blue wire, brown wire or yellow/green wire. :luv:


Whilst she's technically correct (the best kind etc), there is potentially a major difference for the next poor sod who gets to change the light :hug:


Yeah, but I wasn't really thinking about them. ;)


And this is why it's illegal for people to work on their own house wiring since 2005.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:33 
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baron of techno

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Grim... wrote:
Some helpful bugger used red as negative and black as positive for the stereo in a car I bought. I pulled it out and fitted my sweet Sony head unit, but the magic blue smoke escaped.


The standard colour for negative in Ford cars used to be brown :S


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:34 
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Craster wrote:
Also, using the old wiring for anything you add is illegal, innit?


It wasn't me, it was all GJ. She made me do it.

Seriously though, really? To what extent? I've changed the light fitting in the living room as well, does that mean I should have re-wired the entire house by now?

Oh right, seen Kalmar's post. I've only added some because I couldn't fit the 3 reds in one hole :hat: (yes, again), and the by the time I'd trimmed back the earth wire so that the 3rd core wasn't miles away up the sleeve, it was too short to do anything, but yes, I am planning on swapping that blue wire for some green/yellow in a few minutes. Is that piece of brown wire ok?


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:35 
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baron of techno

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Joans wrote:
Is that piece of brown wire ok?


Yep, that's part of your "appliance" and it's the right colour anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:37 
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kalmar wrote:
Craster wrote:
Also, using the old wiring for anything you add is illegal, innit?


No.

Using the old wiring colours (or wrong colours) for any wiring you add is illegal.


Yeah, yeah - that's what I meant. And he's adding wiring, no?

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:38 
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Joans wrote:
Seriously though, really? To what extent? I've changed the light fitting in the living room as well, does that mean I should have re-wired the entire house by now?


Have a read :p

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/upload ... P_2006.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:45 
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baron of techno

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Craster wrote:
Quote:
Using the old wiring colours (or wrong colours) for any wiring you add is illegal.


Yeah, yeah - that's what I meant. And he's adding wiring, no?


Legal definition wise I'm not sure but we're all agreed on using the right colours :)


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:52 
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Lights don't work again now. :'(
Back soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:55 
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baron of techno

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Oh man :(


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:58 
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Lord Humongous

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Joans!
Image
Image
:kiss:

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:00 
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Zardoz wrote:
Joans!
Image
Image
:kiss:


The fan's always worked, and there are lamps anyway. :kiss:
Also, working again now, just going to put the cover back on, screw it together and sob a little to myself :)


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:02 
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baron of techno

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Why did the other lights stop working? Was your bundle of red wires not tightly connected together? It's pretty important you know, possible fire risk and that :S


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:09 
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kalmar wrote:
Why did the other lights stop working? Was your bundle of red wires not tightly connected together? It's pretty important you know, possible fire risk and that :S


No they weren't, but they are now. I just knocked them out while I was changing the earth wire. They should be ok now (but if we have a fire, I'll bear this in mind).

Anyway, all is working (for now). Thanks again.

I will now resume normal service of posting in the Android thread about stuff nobody cares about and the occasional obscure Access question that nobody can answer.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:10 
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Craster wrote:
kalmar wrote:
Craster wrote:
Also, using the old wiring for anything you add is illegal, innit?


No.

Using the old wiring colours (or wrong colours) for any wiring you add is illegal.


Yeah, yeah - that's what I meant. And he's adding wiring, no?


Red and black are not the old colours. Wires that go round your house should be that colour. It's only the appliances that have blue and brown.

All this talk of buggering about with your electrics when you have clearly no idea what you are doing is making me very nervous as you could obviously easily kill yourself or at the very least blow stuff up. Even something like a wire not properly tight in the terminal block could cause a fire. FFS get someone who knows what they are doing to look at it for you. Preferably a qualified electrician.

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:12 
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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:48 
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baron of techno

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Mr Burrrrt wrote:
Craster wrote:
kalmar wrote:
Craster wrote:
Also, using the old wiring for anything you add is illegal, innit?


No.

Using the old wiring colours (or wrong colours) for any wiring you add is illegal.


Yeah, yeah - that's what I meant. And he's adding wiring, no?


Red and black are not the old colours. Wires that go round your house should be that colour. It's only the appliances that have blue and brown.


Nope, you're about 5 years out of date. All wiring is now blue/brown, including fixed solid wiring. You can mix in the new colours on old installations but it's necessary to put a warning label if you do. That doesn't apply here though, since the new colours are part of the appliance, so don't care.

Agreed on the nervousness but I think fair warning has been given, and he's more or less got it sorted out now by the sounds of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:59 
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In spite of some of my posts, I am also quite nervous about this sort of thing and the last thing I want to do is kill myself or anyone else or burn GJ's house down for her. Hence the first thing I did when greeted with a mass of wires and no idea where to put them was to ask for some advice (ideally from Kalmar as I figured he'd know what to do), rather than just cram them somewhere and see if they worked properly.
Yes, I managed to wire it up completely wrong, although I think that was more down to the light being upstairs and me posting from downstairs and me never really cross-referring what I'd done with what I was supposed to do, just what I was supposed to do with what I assumed I'd done, and yes, I managed to get a shock, but that was more from stupidity than anything else.
Everything seems to be working as it should now (although the fan's a bit loud and the light cord on the fan works completely independently of the switch, but I think that's to be expected unless I did something a bit more complicated?), but I'll have GJ read this when she gets back and if she's worried that anything is likely to burst into flames anytime in the future, then we'll get an electrician in to make sure it's not likely to kill anyone.

Everyone happy now? :luv:


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You are using the 'Ted' forum. Bill doesn't really exist any more. Bogus!
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