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 Post subject: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 16:38 
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As you will probably have noticed, it's been pretty hot recently, so I've bought a ceiling fan under the assumption that I'd somehow be able to blunder through and attach it without killing myself or blowing anything up.
After removing the old light and staring at it for a bit, it's become evident that I've got no idea what I'm doing, so if anyone can tell me what goes where, that would be great.

Diag 1. The existing ceiling wiring:
Attachment:
DSC03446.JPG

I've got as far as working out that I've got a loop in pair and a loop out pair, and another pair of wires that go to the switch (as identified by the red-sleeved black wire), and obviously the earth. The live and neutral wires from the old light went into the holes at either extreme of this block.

Diag 2. The terminal block for the ceiling fan
Attachment:
DSC03448.JPG

Er, stuff goes in here somehow.

It looks like I've going to have to take down the existing block to fit the fan, so I'm going to be left with all the free wiring from diagram 1 to stick somewhere. From what I can see, I might need another block to pass the loop wiring through, but apart from changing bulbs and fitting a new light switch this is dangerously new territory for me so I could do with some guidance from someone that knows what they're talking about.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 18:10 
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baron of techno

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This is a combined light and fan, presumably you want to work them off separate light switches on the wall? Do you have two light switches on the wall or only one?


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 18:14 
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Don't these things take one lot of power and have chains on them for the fan and the light?

I'm sure the ones in the USA were switched on at the wall and then you pulled a chain to turn the light on and on the other side was a chain that clicked as you pulled it for the fan on and speed.

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 18:16 
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Just found this pic (fan only) and yeah, there's a chain hanging from it to turn it on.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 18:16 
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baron of techno

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Well rather than guessing I've asked :)

Although I would guess that Joans isn't trying to recreate the Bat Cave in his living room.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 18:18 
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kalmar wrote:
Well rather than guessing I've asked :)


I wasn't guessing. I was asking if they are all like that (well sort of). If not then I am sure we will find out :D hence -

Don't these things take one lot of power and have chains on them for the fan and the light?

Is a question. Mind you, just looked through a few pics and they are not all like that so I suppose wiring it up will depend on the make up of the thing :)

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 18:19 
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kalmar wrote:

Although I would guess that Joans isn't trying to recreate the Bat Cave in his living room.



:DD

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 18:25 
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kalmar wrote:
Well rather than guessing I've asked :)

Although I would guess that Joans isn't trying to recreate the Bat Cave in his living room.


Actually, it's the bedroom :hat: , but yeah, it has a separate pull cord for the fan, so the light switch just needs to work as it did before.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 18:31 
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baron of techno

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OK, good. That's easy then.

You want the original switched live going to the light symbol. The "loop" live going to the fan symbol. N to N, Earth to Earth. [edited]

If you are removing that light fitting, I'd pull the wires up through into the loft, screw a new "rose box" onto a joist and then bring a single piece of flex down through a hole into the new fitting. The terminals in the rose box will look pretty much the same as that, since it's doing the same job. You could even re-use the old box if you feel like it.

OK?


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 18:39 
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Er, maybe?
So, I connect the live to the fan (or the light) and then loop another piece of wire across those 2?
The neutral goes to neutral.
Connect another earth wire from the earth on the fan to the "spare earth" (next to the existing one) on the light fitting?

If I was removing the old fitting, do I need to still make use of that block on it for the loop wiring pass-through thingumy?


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 18:42 
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baron of techno

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Check the edit.

There's only one pull cord on this thing, right? Not one each for the fan and the light, like Coffey mentioned?


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 18:50 
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If it's not clear yet, I've no idea what I'm doing at all, so please try to bear with me (and thanks for helping).

Apparently it has more than one cord (I'm not going upstairs to check), but they're both related to the fan operation and not the light.

When you say the switched live, do you mean the black wire with the red sleeve, or am I still connecting a live wire from the existing block to the light symbol (or something else altogether)?
Er, which one is the loop live?


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 19:01 
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Joans wrote:
If it's not clear yet, I've no idea what I'm doing at all, so please try to bear with me (and thanks for helping).

Apparently it has more than one cord (I'm not going upstairs to check), but they're both related to the fan operation and not the light.


OK. You need the light to work from the original light switch, and the fan should work from a permanently-on live (the loop), so that you can have the fan running without the light being on.

Quote:
When you say the switched live, do you mean the black wire with the red sleeve


Yes, that's the switched live. In case it's not obvious, the hole to the left of it is also connected to it. Use that for the light, as before.

The permanent live is the the 3 terminals in the middle labeled "LOOP" (they are also joined together). There's a spare terminal there, so you can use that for the fan.

You just need to decide whether you are removing the existing junction box or not. Obviously slightly simpler if you can keep it where it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 19:06 
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Ok, this makes sense now, thanks. I don't think it's physically possible to keep that box there it as and attach the fan over it (which is what I was obviously hoping to do). If I was to remove that fitting and then break off the junction box (assuming I can physically fit that within the fan), would I then connect the earth wire from the ceiling to the earth terminal on the fan, or would I then just not be earthing anything?


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 19:14 
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Joans wrote:
Ok, this makes sense now, thanks. I don't think it's physically possible to keep that box there it as and attach the fan over it (which is what I was obviously hoping to do). If I was to remove that fitting and then break off the junction box (assuming I can physically fit that within the fan),



If you can break the junction block out of the light fitting without wrecking it all, and it will fit, you could do that. If not, you can replace it with a new box above the ceiling and bring 4 wires down through the hole (preferably using a piece of 4-core lighting cable, I can send you a bit if you want).

Quote:
would I then connect the earth wire from the ceiling to the earth terminal on the fan, or would I then just not be earthing anything?


You're exactly right, connect the existing earth wire to the earth terminal on the fan. Previously it was not doing anything because the fitting and lamp were plastic. You now need to connect it.

You are remembering to switch off breakers / take out fuses for the light circuit before messing with it any further of course!


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 19:31 
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kalmar wrote:
Joans wrote:
Ok, this makes sense now, thanks. I don't think it's physically possible to keep that box there it as and attach the fan over it (which is what I was obviously hoping to do). If I was to remove that fitting and then break off the junction box (assuming I can physically fit that within the fan),



If you can break the junction block out of the light fitting without wrecking it all, and it will fit, you could do that. If not, you can replace it with a new box above the ceiling and bring 4 wires down through the hole (preferably using a piece of 4-core lighting cable, I can send you a bit if you want).


I'll try that tomorrow and see if I do it without having to mess about in the loft. If I do need some cable, then I may well take you up on your generous offer though, thank you.

Quote:
Quote:
would I then connect the earth wire from the ceiling to the earth terminal on the fan, or would I then just not be earthing anything?


You're exactly right, connect the existing earth wire to the earth terminal on the fan. Previously it was not doing anything because the fitting and lamp were plastic. You now need to connect it.

You are remembering to switch off breakers / take out fuses for the light circuit before messing with it any further of course!


Ok, and yes, the electric will be going off before I do anything else (although I am going to have to drill some new holes to attach the fan at some point).

Cheers Kalmar, if I make it through this alive then I owe you a beer or two next time we meet.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 19:40 
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baron of techno

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No prob :) Feel free to ask / send photos for checking if you're not sure about anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 19:42 
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Can we make threads like this sticky and put them in a really useful threads section?

I have been wanting to fit a ceiling fan for ages. This thread would be super useful.

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 19:53 
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Let's see if Joans makes it through first, eh?

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 20:04 
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That sounds a bit worrying... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 21:22 
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Top tip: if you don't have one of those fancy electrical test screwdriver things then a tongue or a moistened finger makes a handy substitute.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 21:35 
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Lord Humongous

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Heh, I just remembered I got Mark to fit mine in my kitchen.

Why not try that Joans?

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 21:42 
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baron of techno

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Just a thought: you could cram the wires into the fan's terminal block in the following order if they will reach:

Earth to Earth
Both black wires to N
Red sleeved wire to "light"
All 3 other red wires to "fan". Might be tricky to get them to fit.

Should have thought of that in the first place :)


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 22:01 
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Zardoz wrote:
Heh, I just remembered I got Mark to fit mine in my kitchen.

Why not try that Joans?


I don't think it will go in the kitchen, there's a striplight in there. :p

kalmar wrote:
Just a thought: you could cram the wires into the fan's terminal block in the following order if they will reach:

Earth to Earth
Both black wires to N
Red sleeved wire to "light"
All 3 other red wires to "fan". Might be tricky to get them to fit.

Should have thought of that in the first place :)


I think I've got the hang of what's supposed to be doing what now, it's just been a long time since I did stuff like strip the floppy drive power cable on my A1200 so I could power a hard drive off it as well and it's taken me a while to get my head around exactly what on earth everything is. I'm not going to do anything until daylight, but that might be the easier way to do it. I'll have a look at the wiring and see if I can jam three of them in one hole. :hat:


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 22:56 
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kalmar wrote:
Earth to Earth
Both black wires to N
Red sleeved wire to "light"
All 3 other red wires to "fan".
Might be tricky to get them to fit.


For ever and ever, Amen.

Wait, are you preaching from some revisionist book of common prayer?

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 23:05 
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kalmar wrote:
No prob :) Feel free to ask / send photos for checking if you're not sure about anything.


:this: I wish I'd thought of that before wiring a light that you couldn't actually turn off.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:50 
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Is Joans still alive?

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:53 
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Lord Humongous

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See, I told you.

Bet he's slowly rotating like a kebab trunk on the fan, ready to be carved.

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:54 
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At least he got it working then.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:54 
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Grim... wrote:
Is Joans still alive?

Yeah, but I haven't tried anything yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:55 
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At least there was no hair to burn.

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 13:04 
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This thread is far funnier than it should be!


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 13:09 
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Well, I'm still alive (barely), the fan works, but the light doesn't, so it's back to the drawing board later to see what's come loose. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 13:12 
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Make sure the bulb is okay before you start getting technical.

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 13:17 
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There are 3 bulbs, I'm assuming that if one was faulty the other two would still work?


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 13:18 
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Joans wrote:
I'm assuming


Yes, yes you are.

;)

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 13:18 
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Yes. As you were, then.

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 13:23 
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Joans wrote:
Well, I'm still alive (barely)

I can't believe you haven't told them you actually electrocuted yourself. :facepalm:

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 13:24 
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baron of techno

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Oh dear :S


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 13:24 
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Goddess Jasmine wrote:
Joans wrote:
Well, I'm still alive (barely)

I can't believe you haven't told them you actually electrocuted yourself. :facepalm:


I alluded to it, but nobody picked up on it. :ninja:
I kind of preferred it when you didn't post here. :'(


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 13:27 
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Lord Humongous

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:DD with some :facepalm: and a dash of :'(

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 13:29 
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baron of techno

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:facepalm: with a dash of "consult a qualified electrician".


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 13:30 
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kalmar wrote:
:facepalm: with a dash of "consult a qualified electrician".

This was putting the first bulb in...

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 13:31 
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kalmar wrote:
:facepalm: with a dash of "consult a qualified electrician".


I'm not dead yet, so I'll have a crack at fixing it (with the power off).


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 13:31 
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Goddess Jasmine wrote:
kalmar wrote:
:facepalm: with a dash of "consult a qualified electrician".

This was putting the first bulb in...


You couldn't get them in either.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 13:31 
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I think everyone needs to electrocute themselves just a little bit, at least once. It's formative.


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 13:32 
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baron of techno

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Joans wrote:
Goddess Jasmine wrote:
kalmar wrote:
:facepalm: with a dash of "consult a qualified electrician".

This was putting the first bulb in...


You couldn't get them in either.


LOL.
sorry


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 13:32 
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markg wrote:
I think everyone needs to electrocute themselves just a little bit, at least once. It's formative.


Anytime I do any work with the mains I get a belt or two. I accept it is going to happen and get on with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 13:33 
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Joans wrote:
Goddess Jasmine wrote:
kalmar wrote:
:facepalm: with a dash of "consult a qualified electrician".

This was putting the first bulb in...


You couldn't get them in either.

I didn't even try when I saw what happened to you!

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting/Ceiling Fan/Electrical help please
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 13:33 
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Ah, I remember my first electric shock, or rather, I don't


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