Be Excellent To Each Other

I remember a topic not so long ago that had a link to the "retail" version of windows xp, that I remember had been recommnded to many other people who never had any problesm with it being a "retail" version.

I've decided I've had enough of vista and I want to downgrade so I can play games and stuff. I may need some help installing it aswell, would formatting be better than downgrading?

Formatting is the only way chap. Vista will fight tooth and claw to retain control, downgrading was never a supported option.

I'd say a good 95% of people on this forum are dab hands at reinstalling XP by now, so just ask any questions you have.

I may ask (and this is from an XP x64 user that dumped his "retail" copy of Vista) what games can't you play?

Just any really, it struggles with the new sam and max because its a pretty cheap computer and really shouldnt have vista taking up the small memory its got. Thinking of downgrading for that free trackmania and battlefield heroes when it comes out.

A short guide for what I have to do would be grand.

OK. First of all we need to determine what hardware is in your PC, so we know where to get the drivers for XP from. You can do this with something like EVEREST Free Edition, or Device Manager. If you need help with that bit, just say.

Post the logfile or a list of your components here, and I'll do a quick search for drivers which you then burn to a CD or USB key or something for safe keeping. Make sure you have everything you need backed up, then stick in your XP cd and choose Format. It'll wipe the hard drive, and set up a complete fresh XP.

Then run/install the drivers burnt earlier, and spend the next few days tweaking it to your tastes.

PS if you have a second computer with MSN on it, or another IM, it'll be a lot easier and safer to add me or someone else from here to be your guide when something inevitably goes wrong

Runcle, did you computer come with Vista? If so which version? If it came with Vista Basic or Home, you need to be aware it's illegal to put XP on.

It's not illegal if you have a valid XP licence and get it transferred. I'm guessing from the "retail" copy asked for in the first link it won't be an issue, anyway

Or are you saying that Vista Premium and above have a clause in the licence agreement that specifically lets you install XP as well?

How can it be illegal to put software you've bought onto a piece of hardware you've bought?

windows vista home premium

Well with an OEM copy of Windows it's "illegal" to install it on a computer, replace the motherboard and install it again. So like that, probably

Regardless of any other Windows licences attached to the machine, Vista Business and Ultimate have downgrade clauses, common to a lot of business software from MS, that allows you to use the Vista licence to run XP Pro. Similarly, an XP Pro licence could be used to run Windows 2000, SQL Server 2005 licences to run SQL 2000, etc. More info (warning, PDF link).

If the machine came with Vista Home or Basic though, Runcle doesn't have any automatic right to run XP on it.

Umm, any time you don't own a licence to the software in question. Unless he bought a boxed copy somewhere along the way Runcle is no more entitled to put Windows XP on this machine than he is a copy of Adobe Photoshop CD3 downloaded from the Pirate Bay.

(edited coz I misread what Mr Russ said)

I see. MSs licences are a bastard to understand full anyway.

Technically, I'm breaking the Agreement of my legally owned XP x64 due to not displaying the sticker on the side of my case, but as MS stuck the sticker to a plastic box and it won't come off without ripping it to shreds, sod it.

I prefer Ubuntu for everything except gaming anyway

I was getting confused. I thought you were saying it was illegal if you had *bought* a copy of XP *as well as* Vista.

XP is absurdly expensive in the UK, roughly twice the price as the US version. I'd love to acquire a legal retail version to use on this Mac for Boot Camp (Team Fortress 2 looks just too tasty) and Parallels (IE6/7 very useful for testing), but I can't bring myself to pay £160 (the price of an XB360) for Windows XP Home, which is allegedly going out of support any day now.

Do we have any US-based forumites who could ship me out a copy? Of course, in terms of EULA, that's probably just as legal as running an OEM copy.

I've just started a new thread asking for guidance on talking about doing stuff "outside of the licence agreement" as it were, so if we could have that discussion there and leave this one clear for Runcle to get help/ask questions I expect it'd save the new Sinister Overlords some work moving stuff.

Whomper, is there a reason you can't use a £50 OEM copy of XP? I would have thought that'd be fine as long as you buy some hardware at the same time.

Good move that man. Just to close this off though, I'd like to say I wasn't being a dick about piracy, not giving a rat's ass myself, but I want to make Runcle aware of any potential issues before he deletes the Vista install and ends up with a version of XP that won't activate. That would suck. So, yes, onwards!

Buying hardware at the same time makes it legal for the retailers to sell it, but doesn't actually make it legal* for you to use it. OEM licences are officially for system builders to pre-install on hardware which is subsequently sold on to the end customer. They're also non-transferrable, so they're forever bound to that one machine (which is why the sticker goes on the box).

So in terms of legality, buying an OEM copy is basically paying £50 for an illegal copy with more restrictions than one you'd get off BitTorrent.

There's no real reason for me to keep all the software on this Mac legal - it's not used for business purposes - but I've got to admit that I feel good about not pirating stuff. It's also interesting when ones choice of application is informed by price - do you really need MS Office 2008, or will Apple iWork do as well? Photoshop or Photoshop Elements? It's encouraged me towards some Mac shareware apps which are (IMO) superior to the more expensive, famous programs (such as Panic Coda vs Dreamweaver), intially on the basis of price.

* as in it violates the licence/EULA - no idea whether this is technically illegal if one was being strictly pedantic.

Aye, no problems, I was being wary in my first post. In other forums I'd have just slapped up a torrent link or something but after the past few days I felt it prudent to wait and see what the Mods thought.

I don't give a monkeys what people want to pirate, it's not like I haven't done it myself...but I am acutely aware that this forum has a high percentage of dev type people so the forum collective outlook may differ from the "norm".

But you would be the system builder, so it's legal. That's how I thought it worked. You'd just have to rely on yourself for tech support. I also love the comment you made about being "price informed"...apart from a feel good glow I've also found lots of open source, shareware, and outright cheap utilities programmed by great people I have no problem with supporting, often providing the same functionality or better as the "big boys".

I think you are incorrect, I think you can perfectly legally buy that OEM copy and put it on your Mac. The fact that OEM copies are designed to be bundled with hardware doesn't mean they have to be sold with hardware for that machine; I believe that it contradicted some EU law anyway, and doesn't even run in the states now. The main differencess between retail and OEM are that the OEM doesn't come with any tech support (if you call MS they tell you to call the OEM you bought it off) and can never be transferred from one machine to another.

We have some MS licencing fiends in work, I'll ask them tomorrow.

^^ I agree with richard.



This I don't believe applied to OEM Vistas.

It does -- this is how Dell will be selling XP come June. According to this Doc file:

SP3 for WinXP comes out on Tuesday, so if you are going to get a "retail" version then wait until you can get an WinXP SP3 Final Disc, so you're completely up to date and running as optimally from the get go. SP3 is ace BTW, I've been using the last RC for 6 weeks and its totally solid and boot times and system RAM usage are reduced.

Well fair enough then, what do you use for a key though, your vista one?

Good question. I guess it must be. The damned thing only does a lookup into some database in MS anyway, so it's not hard for them to permit an XP install against it.

But you put in the key before giving it online details.

Maybe you have to request a key from MS manually.

I believe that at that stage, it only does some checksum things on the key, so I can imagine the Vista one passes that checksum. However once Windows is installed and doing the Activation thing, it is transmitted to MS for inspection.

some kind of hashing malarky, I'm sure. I don't think they hand-press unique discs coded to accept only one product key.

Presented to you, the owner, on little cushions made of cloth of gold.

I thought that's what the difference with non-OEM versions was...

Indeed, but XP is unlikely to blindly accept a Vista key.

I googled it. You use any valid WinXP key you have, even one that is running on another machine, and when Windows comes to the Activation screen you ring Microsoft and give them the Vista serial you are installing against. They give you back an activation code to type in that squares all the licensing away.

So if you don't have one you're fucked

Sounds like it! I suppose you could always go to PC World and discreetly shoot a digital photo of a shop floor computer's licence sticker, if you could find one running XP. Christ, you could probably use any old warez serial. HMTWJ-VPPWP-... (I typed this from memory, can't quite remember the rest).

FCKGW....

Well, I still think I'm correct about OEM licencing (see here, for example), but I've decided that I don't care, and neither do Microsoft, so I've ordered one anyway.

It seems to me that the OEM arrangement is an amicable fudge, in the time honoured sense (see the British Constitution for another fine example). Microsoft get some money and bear no liability for support, and the end user gets a Windows-Update friendly version of XP and feels vaguely legal. If the OEM option didn't exist, the majority of users would just get a dodgy Corp version off The Pirate Bay and be done with it.

Judging by the apparent complicity of MS staff on the activation line, they're definitely in on the joke.