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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 13:36 
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1080s are still starting at around £470-£500, 1080Tis from about £650.

I suspect they're just going to be total wankers and kick the 2080 off at £600+ and the 2080Ti from £800+

By all accounts the supply chain is still swimming in unsold 10xx cards so if they pitch the 20xx series higher across the board it makes the 10xx cards look viable as they're the 'cheaper option'.

This is what happens when there's no (meaningful) competition. Intel only woke up when AMD punched them in the gut with Ryzen.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 14:24 
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Hearthly wrote:
1080s are still starting at around £470-£500, 1080Tis from about £650.

I suspect they're just going to be total wankers and kick the 2080 off at £600+ and the 2080Ti from £800+

By all accounts the supply chain is still swimming in unsold 10xx cards so if they pitch the 20xx series higher across the board it makes the 10xx cards look viable as they're the 'cheaper option'.

This is what happens when there's no (meaningful) competition. Intel only woke up when AMD punched them in the gut with Ryzen.


Yup, they are definitely getting meaner as AMD fade away. This is why I reckon this time around the Ti may well cost a grand because they have been increasing the prices steadily as AMD fade. I remember the Titan costing £699 and eyebrows being seriously raised. However, it was generally accepted. Then the Titan Black came along at £699 and same. However, the Titan X (Maxwell) lost DP and cost £960 and it has pretty much been upward since then. The XP was £1300 or so at launch (no DP) and the Xp was around £1200 for a few more CUDA cores.

Titan V was £3000, with the Tensor cores and about 25% more performance than my XP (and also had woefully insufficient cooling) so that doesn't exactly fill me with hope.

Then again who am I kidding? firstly I wouldn't want a new GPU having paid £650 for mine a year ago and secondly I love my XB1X. Thirdly I simply can't afford to drop £800 on a GPU now with all that is going on with my life and knowing I am moving soon etc.

I'm not holding out much hope for 7nm Vega either.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 14:40 
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Quote:
1080s are still starting at around £470-£500, 1080Tis from about £650.


I’ll wait for the 4KTis.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 19:04 
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Hearthly wrote:
I suspect they're just going to be total wankers and kick the 2080 off at £600+ and the 2080Ti from £800+
What the fuck even is this.

Nvidia isn't a charity and by your own admission have little meaningful competition so yeah, of course their new, shiny shit is going to cost the earth. Now maybe if they were the only suppliers on Earth of insulin or clean water I could get worked up about that, but come on. These are high end gaming graphics cards for nerds with more money than sense and/or a desperate need for e-peen. No-one has to buy this stuff. If you don't like the price, wait for them to get cheaper like the rest of us. Nvidia exploiting people with more money than sense doesn't make them "wankers." It makes them canny businesspeople. If you want to get annoyed at capitalism there's a million things more worthwhile to get excised over.

JohnCoffey wrote:
I remember the Titan costing £699 and eyebrows being seriously raised.
Well, yeah! That's a ridiculous price, no-one would spend that sort of money on a GPU, what were Nvidia thinking?! Total idiots the lot of them.
Quote:
Then again who am I kidding? firstly I wouldn't want a new GPU having paid £650 for mine a year ago
Oh.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 20:35 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Oh.


I'm over it dude. Seriously.

FWIW I bought it used, and the original owner had paid the full £1300 for it. I also bought it about two weeks before crypto exploded, so could have cashed in at any point (easily getting back £1100 or so). I kind of knew then though that it would be the last time I would pay a high price for a GPU.

Before the XP (big pee) I had a XM (Maxwell) I paid £370 for a week before the 1080 came out, and before that I had a used Fury X. So I do see that differently to rushing out and buying a new GPU. In fact the last new GPU I bought (was two actually) was a Titan Black. I bought two new, then bought a third used and from there I have not bought a single new one. Even my Fury X was a week old from a pal who didn't like it.

But yeah, just so over it. Gaming has been really struggling and £1300 GPUs are not helping it. When something becomes all about capitalism it eventually implodes and disappears up its own ass.

I genuinely could not believe how good my 1x was at running a game at 4k. OK, so if I take a screenshot and then sit on my PC and scrutinise it (on a 32" monitor) from 18" away? yeah it doesn't look all that good. However, moving along and sitting 17ft or so away? it looks stunning. I even found a video on Youtube of some guy trying to build a gaming PC that could do what the 1x does for the same price (around £430 new) and he could not. In fact, most of the PC games he ran would not even run properly at 4k, even though the 1x was having no such trouble.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:56 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
What the fuck even is this.

Nvidia isn't a charity and by your own admission have little meaningful competition so yeah, of course their new, shiny shit is going to cost the earth. Now maybe if they were the only suppliers on Earth of insulin or clean water I could get worked up about that, but come on. These are high end gaming graphics cards for nerds with more money than sense and/or a desperate need for e-peen. No-one has to buy this stuff. If you don't like the price, wait for them to get cheaper like the rest of us. Nvidia exploiting people with more money than sense doesn't make them "wankers." It makes them canny businesspeople. If you want to get annoyed at capitalism there's a million things more worthwhile to get excised over.


Did I miss some posts here that merited such an aggressive response? Anyway, let's work with what we've got.

The problem with gouging at the high-end is that it filters down the entire product stack. So whereas it used to be possible to get close to the top end cards for £250 or less (i.e. GTX970), now that'll barely get you a look in at the midrange (GTX1060).

Exploiting a monopolistic position is a wankery thing to do IMO, or 'generating shareholder value' as I'm sure some would describe it as. It's a sign of dysfunctional market, and demonstrates how 'market forces' can easily fail to do what they're allegedly so good at doing.

Is it the most egregious example of capitalism fucking things up? No, of course it isn't, but I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about the price of graphics cards.

Nvidia are a company with a long history of anti-consumer practices, so this is very much just par for the course for them.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:05 
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Hearthly wrote:
Did I miss some posts here that merited such an aggressive response?

Sorry. I'm a bit grumpy right now, I'm going through some Stuff which is clearly getting on top of me. Mea culpa.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:12 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Hearthly wrote:
Did I miss some posts here that merited such an aggressive response?

Sorry. I'm a bit grumpy right now, I'm going through some Stuff which is clearly getting on top of me. Mea culpa.


Ahhh right no problem old chap, hope the 'stuff' gets sorted out soon! :)


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 19:19 
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Hearthly wrote:
Nvidia are a company with a long history of anti-consumer practices, so this is very much just par for the course for them.


GTX 590, circa 2011.

Image

Two enormous great dies, totally OTT. Yours for £590, which I remember thinking was a *lot* of money. Now they want £3000 for a Titan V.

Edit. That's why they call me bullet... Just finally noticed the irony between the model number and price. Oh, and don't forget to add the custom PLX chip that it had too, 'cause they are not cheap.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 19:30 
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The Titan V isn’t a gaming card. It’s a professional grade workstation card for people who need GPU compute for their jobs, and is priced according to that market. Under my desk in work is a 72 core Lenovo workstation with 200 GB of RAM; that cost a pretty penny too, but it doesn’t mean squat for the gaming PC ecosystem.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 20:10 
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Can it run Crysis though?

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 20:31 
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Grim... wrote:
Can it run Crysis though?

Not enough memory


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 20:43 
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That rig must be able to crack out some serious emails.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 20:45 
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Trooper wrote:
That rig must be able to crack out some serious emails.

And as many as THREE chrome tabs, SIMULTANEOUSLY.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 20:53 
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DavPaz wrote:
Trooper wrote:
That rig must be able to crack out some serious emails.

And as many as THREE chrome tabs, SIMULTANEOUSLY.

And one of them can be Google Maps.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 20:55 
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Grim... wrote:
Can it run Crysis though?

I doubt it, it has some tiny little passively cooled Quadro GPU.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:22 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Can it run Crysis though?

I doubt it, it has some tiny little passively cooled Quadro GPU.

So what you're saying is, you're only a £1 GFX card from playing Crysis?


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:24 
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DavPaz wrote:
So what you're saying is, you're only a £1 GFX card from playing Crysis?

...maybe? And the mere trifle of losing my job for installing random software on a secure workstation, of course.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:38 
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They'd understand. This is for SCIENCE.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:47 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
So what you're saying is, you're only a £1 GFX card from playing Crysis?

...maybe? And the mere trifle of losing my job for installing random software on a secure workstation, of course.

Brwaark, brwaaaak, BRWAAAAAAAAARK!!!

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:05 
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Giphy "chicken":
https://media1.giphy.com/media/FBYKU4iWLo7mw/giphy-loop.mp4

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:05 
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Hahaha that's a brave fucking chicken!

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:13 
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Seriously though, what do you use it for? Is it just a case of "it was available, so why not."
What do you do on it that can't be done on a macbook pro?


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:18 
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Trooper wrote:
What do you do on it that can't be done on a macbook pro?

Foot rest.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:18 
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I've realised that I wrote £1 when I intended to write £1K. I carry my shame.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:25 
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Trooper wrote:
Seriously though, what do you use it for? Is it just a case of "it was available, so why not."
What do you do on it that can't be done on a macbook pro?

Compiling Android.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:27 
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Pffft, I've compiled things on my laptop. Took a few seconds! Don't know what you're worried about.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:29 
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How many virtual machines within virtual machines could you run on that? Could you emulate every major version of windows within a load of iterated VMs?

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:37 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Can it run Crysis though?

I doubt it, it has some tiny little passively cooled Quadro GPU.

Huh, turns out it's a Quadro P1000, which is basically a slightly diluted GeForce 1050. So not that bad.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:40 
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Sir Taxalot wrote:
How many virtual machines within virtual machines could you run on that? Could you emulate every major version of windows within a load of iterated VMs?

Why would you iterate them?

I reckon you could virtualise and run every major Windows release with 16GB of RAM, easy.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:42 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Trooper wrote:
Seriously though, what do you use it for? Is it just a case of "it was available, so why not."
What do you do on it that can't be done on a macbook pro?

Compiling Android.


I'd be interested in the delta in build times between a typical macbook pro and THE BEAST!!!


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:46 
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Trooper wrote:
I'd be interested in the delta in build times between a typical macbook pro and THE BEAST!!!

I found a StackOverflow of someone saying in 2016 that their i7 laptop with 16 GB of RAM took two hours to compile just AOSP.

A clean top-of-tree local source build on my machine is around 30 minutes. And Android is far bigger now than it was in 2016, and I'm compiling a lot more than just AOSP. So "a lot faster."


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:53 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Trooper wrote:
I'd be interested in the delta in build times between a typical macbook pro and THE BEAST!!!

I found a StackOverflow of someone saying in 2016 that their i7 laptop with 16 GB of RAM took two hours to compile just AOSP.

A clean top-of-tree local source build on my machine is around 30 minutes. And Android is far bigger now than it was in 2016, and I'm compiling a lot more than just AOSP. So "a lot faster."


I was correct, I was interested. Thanks. :)


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:15 
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Grim... wrote:
Sir Taxalot wrote:
How many virtual machines within virtual machines could you run on that? Could you emulate every major version of windows within a load of iterated VMs?

Why would you iterate them?

I reckon you could virtualise and run every major Windows release with 16GB of RAM, easy.


Iterating (perhaps I used the wrong term) would be far more challenging than just running a load simultaneously wouldn't it?

What I meant was having win 10, running 8 in a VM, which is then running 7, in turn running Vista, etc etc. It's like inception or something.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:17 
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Nested is the word you're looking for.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:18 
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Grim... wrote:
Nested is the word you're looking for.

I suspect "recursive" might have been the specific word he was reaching for, as it sort of pairs with iterative, IYSWIM.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:27 
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I believe Duaga1 on YouTube did exactly that nested windows thing.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:28 
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Recursive works, but the feature is called Nested Virtualization. PC Steps did an experiment a while ago to see how deep they could go ( :hat: ) and the answer was "not very far".

[edit] Here it is: https://www.pcsteps.com/508-nested-virtualization/

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:29 
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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:30 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
I found a StackOverflow of someone saying in 2016 that their i7 laptop with 16 GB of RAM took two hours to compile just AOSP.

About the same time as a Gradle build then lolololol ;)


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:53 
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Grim... wrote:
Recursive works, but the feature is called Nested Virtualization. PC Steps did an experiment a while ago to see how deep they could go ( :hat: ) and the answer was "not very far".

[edit] Here it is: https://www.pcsteps.com/508-nested-virtualization/


Each hypervisor is probably as much overhead as the VM it's running.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:55 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
The Titan V isn’t a gaming card. It’s a professional grade workstation card for people who need GPU compute for their jobs, and is priced according to that market. Under my desk in work is a 72 core Lenovo workstation with 200 GB of RAM; that cost a pretty penny too, but it doesn’t mean squat for the gaming PC ecosystem.


Oh yeah I was more thinking about silicon and components, rather than the specific model.

Any way seems the stock cooler for the 2080ti has been revealed..

https://www.overclock3d.net/news/gpu_di ... n_cooler/1

Image

This makes a lot of sense. I know two guys who bought Titan V, and their first statements within a day of ownership was "The stock cooler is totally insufficient now".

This made sense, as even on my Titan XP it struggled to keep it cool and you could gain an extra 15% performance by slapping the FE under water. Which worked, and I barely had to do anything (it just boosted higher without a very large shove and was able to maintain itself properly without any throttling).

So I was kind of wondering what Nvidia were going to do about this going into the future. Seems they have completely redesigned it, which is nice. Hopefully it can keep the entire thing cool enough for decent overclocking, without having to spend silly money on WC stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:03 
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JohnCoffey wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
The Titan V isn’t a gaming card. It’s a professional grade workstation card for people who need GPU compute for their jobs, and is priced according to that market. Under my desk in work is a 72 core Lenovo workstation with 200 GB of RAM; that cost a pretty penny too, but it doesn’t mean squat for the gaming PC ecosystem.


Oh yeah I was more thinking about silicon and components, rather than the specific model.

Any way seems the stock cooler for the 2080ti has been revealed..

https://www.overclock3d.net/news/gpu_di ... n_cooler/1

Image

This makes a lot of sense. I know two guys who bought Titan V, and their first statements within a day of ownership was "The stock cooler is totally insufficient now".

This made sense, as even on my Titan XP it struggled to keep it cool and you could gain an extra 15% performance by slapping the FE under water. Which worked, and I barely had to do anything (it just boosted higher without a very large shove and was able to maintain itself properly without any throttling).

So I was kind of wondering what Nvidia were going to do about this going into the future. Seems they have completely redesigned it, which is nice. Hopefully it can keep the entire thing cool enough for decent overclocking, without having to spend silly money on WC stuff.


Why would they want to keep it cool for overclocking, surely that is down to the owner?

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:07 
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KovacsC wrote:
Why would they want to keep it cool for overclocking, surely that is down to the owner?


Nearly all hardware overclocks itself now Kovs. So the higher the boost it can maintain the better it looks on paper and in benchmarks.

They used the same blower cooler on quite a few cards, but the more powerful they became the more problematic it became. Once they added the hot part back in (Tensor cores, the beefy bit) it was just totally inadequate.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:15 
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I must be dim, if all hardware overcloaks, then isn't that it's standard mode of operation. I assumed over clocking was push stuff passed what it was set at.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:19 
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KovacsC wrote:
I must be dim, if all hardware overcloaks...

Only Macs.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:23 
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KovacsC wrote:
I must be dim, if all hardware overcloaks, then isn't that it's standard mode of operation. I assumed over clocking was push stuff passed what it was set at.


Nah not any more man. Capitalism ceased the opportunity to charge for that too.

All hardware now has boost/turbo clocks. You can push it farther yourself, but it really is as simple as just sliding a slider and hitting apply.

Anything "free" in hardware land was gobbled up ages ago.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:40 
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Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
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JohnCoffey wrote:
All hardware now has boost/turbo clocks.
Which is not overclocking.

Quote:
You can push it farther yourself
Which is overclocking.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:51 
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Bad Girl

Joined: 20th Apr, 2008
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I have a PC. I’m interested in hypervisor recursive works nested virtualization but I’m worried about compiling an overhead stackoverflow AOSP.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:56 
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chewbacca -future arc welder

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Don't worry about it, it'll probably never happen.


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