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Moral Quandry
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Author:  Plissken [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:13 ]
Post subject:  Moral Quandry

As you may or may not know, the Irish economy is what is technically described as "completely fucked". The Government is planning cutbacks to public services, as obviously the bankers who caused it all can't be made to pay for it, it is the little guy who has to take the brunt.

Next Tuesday, there is a national general strike of civil servants.

I work as a contractor at the Irish police force. Now the Garda can't go out on strike (officially, though Google for "blue flu") but the support staff can and probably will.

I was brought up on the side of the workers, and I sympathise with their situation. However, I am just some guy who is a one-man band, who doesn't belong to a union and who might be facing the idea of crossing a picket line next Tuesday. I don't know what the "rules" are for crossing the line - I am not a member of the striking union, but I don't want to be hassled for turning up for work as normal - hell, if I don't turn up, I don't get paid!

So what should I do? Does the line apply to me in any way, other than morally? Am I likely to be hassled/called a scab?

Yours, worried of Dublin.

Author:  MaliA [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Scab.

Author:  Plissken [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

From a lawyer?

Author:  Zardoz [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Get flu?

That's a sticky situation to find yourself in mate. Would losing a days pay cripple you? Is there a secret way in?

Author:  MaliA [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

If it's a choice between getting money and being shunned by the Irish, I know what I'd choose.

Author:  myp [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

MaliA wrote:
If it's a choice between getting money and being shunned by the Irish, I know what I'd choose.

Are you Thierry Henry?

Author:  Curiosity [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

myp wrote:
MaliA wrote:
If it's a choice between getting money and being shunned by the Irish, I know what I'd choose.

Are you Thierry Henry?


:DD

Nicely done.

On topic - You can't argue with picket lines. No matter if you're 100% in the right and going in would save a thousand babies, they won't listen to your POV.

I'd just go in.

Author:  Plissken [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Zardoz wrote:
Is there a secret way in?


Fella, it is the headquarters of the police force.

I could always get bundled into the back of a police van.

Author:  MaliA [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

What Curiosity said.

Author:  Zardoz [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Plissken wrote:
Zardoz wrote:
Is there a secret way in?


Fella, it is the headquarters of the police force.

I could always get bundled into the back of a police van.


I just wanted to be sure, to be sure.

Author:  MaliA [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Although a quick google brought this up.

Quote:
Don't expect this to blow over once the strike is done. Expect that you will always -- I mean that literally -- be known as a scab, regardless of how good you think your motivations are. Expect that decades from now, even if everyone you currently work with leaves, your reputation will follow you. Expect that old men on their deathbeds will remember your name and what you did. Fair or not, those are things that you should expect.


Which is cheery

Author:  kalmar [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:23 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Yeah I think you're just going to have to duck and go in anyway.

Like you say, it's not really your issue, or country, or situation to be taking action, and hopefully anyone that works with you will know this and not start giving you grief.

Can you work from home for a day or two until it blows over?

I sympathise too though, Ireland is, as you say, a bit bollocksed.

Author:  sinister agent [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Goad the crowd into saying there's no god, then have them arrested.

Author:  TheAlbin0Kid [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

I'd use it as an excuse to stay off work, if I could afford to financially. Otherwise I'd go in... their strike is their problem.

Author:  zaphod79 [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

My one and only experience of any of this was a long time ago when i worked tech support for a college and the lecturers and some of the other unions were on strike.

I was not part of the union and had been told before that if i didnt show up then i would be docked a days pay so i turned up , it helped that it was early so there was virtually no-one there , however there one person on the gate i went in and they stopped the cars , asked if the person inside would not consider not going in and then let them go in.

There were much larger groups (larger generally equals lots more potential for trouble) later when it got closer to the start of the college day but no real problems - so my only other suggestion is that if you are going in then turn up for work early and you may find there are less people to block you.

Author:  MaliA [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Paticularly as you are seen as EKS, any attempts to show solidarity could be a bit neg.

Author:  DavPaz [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

I had this problem in my old job, where most people were in Unison, including my boss, when they called a University Support Workers strike. I was not a Union member.

I came in early as usual, before the picket line was put up, sat at my desk all day and did fuck all (if you can tell the difference, please claim your five pounds) and went home at the end of the day, by the back door.

My boss didn't even bother picketing, he just stayed at home.

Author:  chinnyhill10 [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

zaphod79 wrote:
My one and only experience of any of this was a long time ago when i worked tech support for a college and the lecturers and some of the other unions were on strike.

I was not part of the union and had been told before that if i didnt show up then i would be docked a days pay so i turned up , it helped that it was early so there was virtually no-one there , however there one person on the gate i went in and they stopped the cars , asked if the person inside would not consider not going in and then let them go in.

There were much larger groups (larger generally equals lots more potential for trouble) later when it got closer to the start of the college day but no real problems - so my only other suggestion is that if you are going in then turn up for work early and you may find there are less people to block you.


I remember the uni lecturers going on strike. They had a number of people on the main road but only 1 person on the side entrance that most people used.

One of the part time lecturers rolled up in his huge Merc, got out, asked the single picketee if he wanted a cup of tea or anything and carried on into the building. Kind of summed up how pointless the whole thing was.

Author:  Kern [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

I remember the students' union holding a strike ('how would we tell?' etc etc). I deliberately showed up to lecture hall that morning for the pleasure of crossing the OUSU picket line, but there wasn't one, and the lecturer had decided to cancel it anywhere. Oh well.

Author:  Plissken [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 13:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Just took a quick straw poll in the office (who are all contractors).

People coming in: 0

"Er... Mike, you know the person who signs the timesheet at the end of the month?"
"Yeah."
"She's the Union rep."

Looks like the decision is made for me.

Author:  Zardoz [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 13:50 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

You're going to seduce her?

Author:  sdg [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 13:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

That's a rubbish situation to be in, I have the prospect of a similar situation looming as well. Sometime before Christmas we are being balloted for industrial action over the redundancy package being offered at my site. I am in the union but I'm not being made redundant but emotions are high at work and it's a really horrible atmosphere for everyone.
If my work strikes, I had decided I would strike with them but then I need to wonder how long they would strike for. They have nothing to lose, having already lost their jobs and so potentially (although unlikely) it could last a while and so obviously I couldn't manage that.
There is also a possibility my contract doesn't let me strike so I'm hoping that's true.

Author:  Cras [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 13:57 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Are you allowed to join the union, as a contractor, Pliss?

Author:  Plissken [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 13:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Considering I am neither a civil servant, nor an Irish citizen/taxpayer, I think joining the union would be highly unlikely.

Author:  Cras [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 14:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Maybe it's worth talking to her, then.

"FYI, as I'm not in your union, and can't join it, I'm rather obliged to come into work that day. That won't be an issue, will it?"

Author:  chinnyhill10 [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 14:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Kern wrote:
I remember the students' union holding a strike ('how would we tell?' etc etc). I deliberately showed up to lecture hall that morning for the pleasure of crossing the OUSU picket line, but there wasn't one, and the lecturer had decided to cancel it anywhere. Oh well.


Oh yeah, the tuition fees strike. As someone put it, "I'm paying enough money for this course without losing a day due to a strike".

Author:  Sir Taxalot [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 14:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Craster wrote:
Maybe it's worth talking to her, then.

"FYI, as I'm not in your union, and can't join it, I'm rather obliged to come into work that day. That won't be an issue, will it?"


"I'll join your strike action if you sign the sheet that says I worked that day anyway"

...

"what's that? No?... Oh, nevermind"

Author:  Cavey [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 14:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Craster wrote:
Maybe it's worth talking to her, then.

"FYI, as I'm not in your union, and can't join it, I'm rather obliged to come into work that day. That won't be an issue, will it?"


Yes, but don't forget to add "... so it won't!' at the end of that sentence, just for that endearing, disarming common touch. Sure fire winner!

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 14:23 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Not perhaps a major point here, but crossing a picket line is in no way a moral issue. You have clearly been brainwashed by Scargill and the dayglo shoulderpatches on his donkeyjacket.

Author:  kalmar [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 14:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Captain Caveman wrote:
Craster wrote:
Maybe it's worth talking to her, then.

"FYI, as I'm not in your union, and can't join it, I'm rather obliged to come into work that day. That won't be an issue, will it?"


Yes, but don't forget to add "... so it won't!' at the end of that sentence, just for that endearing, disarming common touch. Sure fire winner!


.. to be sure ..

Author:  Plissken [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 14:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

kalmar wrote:
Captain Caveman wrote:
Craster wrote:
Maybe it's worth talking to her, then.

"FYI, as I'm not in your union, and can't join it, I'm rather obliged to come into work that day. That won't be an issue, will it?"


Yes, but don't forget to add "... so it won't!' at the end of that sentence, just for that endearing, disarming common touch. Sure fire winner!


.. to be sure ..


Grand.

Author:  kalmar [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 14:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Begorrah.

Author:  Zardoz [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 14:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

These picketers are small, those are far away.

Author:  Curiosity [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 14:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Also, carry a pig under your arm and dress all in green, for authenticism.

Author:  Zardoz [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 14:55 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

They're not striking anyway.

Author:  Plissken [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 14:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Mr Chris wrote:
Not perhaps a major point here, but crossing a picket line is in no way a moral issue. You have clearly been brainwashed by Scargill and the dayglo shoulderpatches on his donkeyjacket.


Moral as in personal, I suppose.

I'm old skool when it comes to workers vs management. Which is a bit fucking weird considering I'm a self-employed contractor. I'll undoubtedly end up disagreeing with a decision I made and picketing myself one day.

Author:  myp [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 15:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Curiosity wrote:
Also, carry a pig under your arm and dress all in green, for authenticism.

8)

Author:  Cras [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 15:08 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Plissken wrote:
I'm old skool when it comes to workers vs management.


That's not old skool. Old skool is when the serfs don't work, you put them in a cage hanging outside the castle gate.

Author:  Plissken [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 15:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

No, I'd be the one with the pitchfork with the lord of the manor on the other, pointy, end.

Or Dennis, out of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Author:  Squirt [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 15:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Aim for somewhere in the middle by going into work, but not doing much and swiping some office supplies. Then, both sides are happy.

Author:  KovacsC [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 15:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

What does it say in your contracted..

Author:  Bobbyaro [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 15:50 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

myp wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
Also, carry a pig under your arm and dress all in green, for authenticism.

8)

You're not kidding!! 8) :facepalm:

On topic: talk to the person signing your pay thingy.

Author:  Runcle [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 15:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

could you not go in fancy dress as a scab, and if they start chanting it just pretend there cheering you on?

Author:  DavPaz [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 15:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Runcle wrote:
could you not go in fancy dress as a scab, and if they start chanting it just pretend there cheering you on?

Image

Author:  sinister agent [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 15:55 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Runcle wrote:
could you not go in fancy dress as a scab, and if they start chanting it just pretend there cheering you on?


Turn up in a top hat with a gold sceptre, and bludgeon one of them a bit.

Author:  Plissken [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 17:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Basically, I am contracted to do a set number of days. There are more working days left between no and Xmas than I have left to do. So I've taken Tuesday as holiday.

sinister agent wrote:
Turn up in a top hat with a gold sceptre, and bludgeon one of them a bit.


They'll think I'm a rather tall leprechaun and try to steal me gold.

Author:  Cras [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 17:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Plissken wrote:
They'll think I'm a rather tall leprechaun and try to steal me gold lucky charms.

Author:  Plissken [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 17:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

No, no, no. He got killed by Austin Danger Powers.

Author:  Myfinger [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 17:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Presumably this depends how strong and militant the unions are over there.

I know when the civil service were on strike over here my missus crossed the picket with no bother at all and no after effects. It was all a very half hearted affair.

Certainly in the UK it is not like in the 1970s/1980s (unsurprising as it isn't, it's 2009!). People make their own far more selfish and less collectivist decisions and union power is not what it was in many sectors. There doesn't seem to be the same high emotion that there once was about striking.

As a contractor striking presumably doesn't benefit you anyway as you have no benefit from collective action in the way employees do. You'll be first out the door if there are cuts and you don't have employment protection rights (probably, although I don't know the first thing about the Irish employment set up). So actually striking is against your interests! But save the rationale for another time. Man up, cross the picket and enjoy asking the shop steward to sign off your timesheet for that day! :)

Author:  Zardoz [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 18:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moral Quandry

Plissken wrote:
There are more working days left between no and Xmas

You're starting to get the accent!

Also: Excellent solution that man.

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