Be Excellent To Each Other

Well, I've been vegan for 5 years now and Veggie before that for another 2 or 3, so while probably inviting hostility from some, ask away.

In answer to Mimis' initial question, I would say the answer is yes and no, depending on who you ask. As much as some would love to believe that it is black and white definition, and those who don't fit this impossible to live ideal are full of shit, it really isn't reality. Different people have different reasons for doing it, the same way with Veggies, it could be an animal lib thing, a healthy diet thing, an allergy thing, a religious thing etc etc. So people have varying reasons for living their own personal lifestyle. Someone who is Vegan for the healthy diet would most probably have no problems with wearing wool or pearls, which I think is fair enough, their choice.

For me its a combination of many aspects of the things I mentioned above, but mainly it is a small part of my belief in being mindful towards how I live my life and interact with all other life that coexists with me. So I personally avoid anything animal related, which includes honey, wool, leather etc. But I'm by no means perfect, you try back packing around the arse end of nowhere in Mexico and live Vegan. I'd be dead within a month, I vaguely managed it and I still lost 1 1/2 stone in 3 months. Also, the extremities that it can be taken too are far beyond the vast majority of people. Jainan Hindu monks will wear veils over their faces to stop breathing in insects and have trained themselves to wake up in the night everytime they need to roll over, so they can sweep the side of the bed they will move over to, so not to crush anything living. No way I could manage that, but full respect to them for their positive intensions!

I have respect for anyone who gives Veggie/Veganism a go.

Apart from Hitler, natch.

Pupil - what's your perspective on the issue of pets, and if they are fine, how does that differ from wool or dairy farming where the animals are well treated? I'm asking out of genuine interest, not looking to criticise anything.

Thank you, this is good advice
Apologies for my slightly prickly comment but I've seen this play out a few times, and there's always some clever bugger trying to make out everyone else out to be a hypocrite. Anyway, moving on.

And yes, I meant animal products, not farmed products, that really was silly.



Mimi, that sounds like a laudable aim. I think, if you're going to label things as vegan, you'd want to use the strict definition of "no animal products". So yes, that would include any kind of wool, pearls, silk, and leather. Hopefully you have some items (they look really nice by the way!) that don't use any of those things, or use substitutes?

Doing this will definitely be beneficial if you're selling on somewhere like ebay, as anything with the 'vegan' key-word there tends to command a high price.

And if some people don't mind the use of those things, well, you've got those too. Perhaps showing that you take some care where things are sourced is a good idea in any event. Hope that helped?



On the larger debate, yes, clearly you're going to find that certain things are acceptable to different people, whether you want to stick to some dictionary definition or not. And of course some of the particular cases are a bit complicated. Probably best to bear in mind that A) people are people, and B) vegan != religion. At least I don't think so.

FWIW I wore leather shoes for a long time as a vegetarian. Mainly because they were DMs which lasted a good 10 years, dating from a time when I hadn't really considered things like that, and I don't like to throw things away if they ain't broken.

The Hitler Veggie thing is quite probably an urban myth, but yeah, I respect his vegetarianism if he actually was one, like anyone else. The other ideologies... I'm not so sure upon though.

He wasn't a vegetarian.

Let's not take it as a given that veggie or veganism is by definition a good thing.

"Best quote" thread devoted to the fantastic art of the understatement please kthxbye

It is compared to my overly lardy too-much-meat diet, I assure you!

I really respect Veggies and Vegans, especially those who go the whole hog, as it were.
I'd never be able to do it myself..though I do enjoy eating at a veggies house. I've had some really lovely meals.
There is certainly nothing wrong with the choice to be veggie or vegan.

Man those monks are hardcore.

I don't really care if people are vegan or not - however, they are a pain in the arse to cook for. Vegetarians too, but obviously to a lesser extent. I don't know about automatically respecting people based on what they eat, either.

Personally(I stress that word) I grew up with pets, my mum being obsessed with Labrador dogs, so absolutely love house pets like dogs and cats etc. But, as I mentioned, my veganism is not about one steadfast view point, it is about mindfulness and compassion, so if a dog is kept as a pet and is clearly well looked after and a happy dog, then great. My mum gives more love and attention to her dogs than she does to any other person in her house They've got it sweet. But people who abuse their pets or look after them badly, that I can't stand. I'm not into caged birds, that seems cruel to me. Same with dairy in my book. A happy cow, living it up in a lovely big meadow, bell round neck and all that, organic free range blah blah - great, happy cow is fine with me. I still wouldn't drink the milk as I've learnt through cutting it out of my diet that I'm fairly lactose intolerant and it makes me ill. But, factory farmed cows, pumped artificially full of hormones and kept perpetually pregnant, with udders half their body size so they are in agony, being sucked clean by machines, I'm not into that.

Mm. I remember, it was just too tempting. It is strange how the myth is so compelling. Ironic incongruity is excellent. He was also a 'can-doer', you've got to respect that too. (I'm sure there were some quality Bill Hicks jokes on this front)

Yep, rightly so. I respect them for that choice, I may think they're an arsehole for everything else they do though I respect a lot of people, but not for everything they do.

Wikipedia has an article about Hitler being a vegetarian; seems like he wasn't, but might have almost been one, or been one for a while, or wished to portray himself as one without actually doing it.

I say this nether offensively or defensively, as I respect your opinion to not be into the veggie/vegan thing, but I am interested as to why you think it may actually be a bad thing, other than what you feel about veggies/vegans being smug arseholes (which some are, I've met many, but not all of them).

The Dalai Lama also eats meat. So.....

Dalai Lama < Hitler ?!?!

That makes sense. I guess I've been conflating animal rights people with vegans simply beacuse that's most of my experience.

There's an interesting issue with dairy as well, as with eating meat or honey there's percedent with other animals, but no other animal uses milk from a different species, or uses milk at all as adults. i'm still not stopping eating cheese though!

Mother Teresa spent her life helping the poorest in the some of the worst slums in the world, but her practical impact can by necessity only extend to the people she met (plus those she inspired). Bill Gates, through his charity work, has ensured that millions of people will get immunisations against diseases that could have killed them; imagine if it goes on to virtually eliminate cholera, or stem the tide of HIV in Africa. He could be responsible for saving millions of people every year. So who is more holy?

Tricky thing, black-and-white!

I'm really into animal rights, although I have conflicting opinions that I do actually worry about.
However I'm a bit naff really I guess..I mean the only things I do, food wise, is eat local produce whenever possible and buy free range and organic.

And omg, I could never give up cheese

Yup, which is a cracker to mention to someone who is getting all "It's not natural you fucking hippy wanker" in my face about this subject I see that as a health issue though and not moral issue. Like I say, happy cow, happy me, but drinking the lactation of another animal makes me (and a hell of a lot of people) ill, so I'm not into that thanks.

Not being a good thing does not automatically make it a bad thing.

That said it errs towards bad simply because you're denying yourself food we were designed to eat. (not cow milk, obv)

I was more addressing the seeming assumption in the thread that vegans were automatically our moral superiors and the only reason any of us don't do it is we're not "strong enough" and we should all aspire to be so pious.

which is balls.

I've often wondered what issues denying the body meat causes.
I mean yes, we are omniverous but I've never noticed anything wrong with vegitarians I know. I cannot speak for Vegans, I do not personally know any now.

Ha, true! I'm not sure what would constitute a natural diet at this point, though. Neither factory farming, nor a restricted diet that has to be carefully managed to be healthy would seem to qualify for me.

"Designed"? Well, we've already covered vegetarism with a hint of Hitler; I guess we may as well tick Creationism off in this thread too.

From what I understand (basically from reading New Scientist) the general consensus from nutritionists is that we were designed to eat most vegetables but mostly to eat anything at all we could because we come from a long, long line of ancestors who just barely didn't starve to death. It seems to be a common belief that we eat more red meats than our body is designed to cope with, and certainly more than any of our ancestors before about a hundred years ago could have done.

I completely agree with you. I see nothing morally superior to my veganism over a meat eaters diet. Inuits would be fucked without eating Seal meat. Try growing carrots in snow! Like I mentioned the Dalai Lama, who for dietary reasons has to eat meat otherwise he'll be very ill. Luckily, most of us have a choice in our privileged society and if someone is making a choice which they see as positive to themselves and to others, then thats ace, it makes me happy



Not absolutely true, I have to say. Many people are perfectly capable of living healthy/healthier lifestyles as vegans. Everything we get from meat can be got from alternatives, especially in our society with fortified foods. Some people can't (Dalai Lama etc), but most people can.

Another episode of The Wire (I blame nervouspete for this!) is enticing me, so I look forward ot talking about this more tomorrow at work

You can't nitpick over his use of "designed" and assume it means "by god" and then go on to use the word in the same way yourself.

Leaving whether or not we were 'designed' out of it (please, let's not start that now, I've just been up all night arguing with someone over it already), Dudders may well have simply meant "food we are biologically geared towards eating", or words to that effect.

Speaking of milk, a good opportunity to bring up this.

An issue of stupidity rather than veganism, but still. Christ.

Oops. Ummm. Yes! Well done, you found my deliberate mistake. Glad you were paying attention.

"Never discuss religion, politics, or toast".

I'm sure he did, I meant that bit as a light-hearted piece of japery

That would seem to answer the question of whether veganism is "natural" quite well.

Ever read the book by C. Hitchens called The Missionary Position?

The debate about what constituted the Paleolithic diet fits into that. Additionally, it's argued by some that the consumption of oily seafood played an important part in developing complex brains.

Well let's put it this way. Given my posting history, what chance do you think there is that I'm a creationist?

Not yours. If you ate organic pizza you'd probably be fine

Thank you to everyone - perhaps particularly to Pupil for his personal take on his veganism. I don't think that I could ever run an entirely vegan-friendly shop, simply because I like wool too much. I also love pearls, though I could live with substituting those if I felt I had to. I think it is best for me to list any materials that people may need to make a personal decision over. 'Made from 100% Alpaca', 'contains pearls', packaged in an atmosphere containing nuts' - OK, maybe not that last one.

I had a think last night about having a specifically vegan friendly part of my shop, but I think I will just go with the idea above for now and think further into it some time in the future.

I never discount the possibility. Some of my closest friends have in the past suddenly revealed themselves to be closet religioners, apparently contradicting hundreds of hours of prior conversation. There was one week where almost everyone I talked to was suddenly religious. It was not amusing.

I remember that story, I found it hard to even comprehend the stupidity at first.

Also, the Dalai Lama eats meat? I don't understand how this can be

It's a terrible story, but it does have a silver lining:



Seriously, Chuck Boring. How many days must that sentence have made?

The Dalai Lama has hepatitis, so needs to eat meat for health reasons. Also, Tibetan Buddhists (in Tibet) generally eat some meat because growing crops at the top of the Himalayas is pretty damn hard, so there isn't much food to go around. Also Also, being veggie isn't a golden rule of Buddhism, the 8 fold path is pretty much the moral guideline for a Buddhist, but its isn't specific, just a guide. Most Buddhists choose to be Veggie though, as it fits well with the compassionate lifestyle choice of Buddhism.

I read about this at the time. That couple are total fucking morons.

I'm sure I read something about wild mature animals drinking other animals milk once. Something surreal like hedgehogs drinking it from nursing sheep, or sparrows taking it from bats. I will investigate further.

Quick question - would anyone join Heather and drink rat's milk?

This is the most interesting thing I have learned in a long time - I had absolutely no idea but I am now intrigued and must find out more. To the Google-mobile!

Oh fucking hell, she isn't Vegan, is she? Somebody pass me a burger, quick!

The woman is a comedy genius. Not for this, in particular. She just 'is'.

I like meat, although the gf is veggie so I eat a lot of quorn, which is generally perfectly nice. Quorn sausage rolls are to my mind indistinguishable to the real thing, and no gritty lumps of crap meat in there either.

I also like quorn because you can't undercook it. It's great. The only thing you're risking is that it tastes a bit shit.

Having said that, nothing will make me give up the odd maccies, BK, or subway. The gf often gets a Veggie Delight, which is basically the sub with just salad in it. What's the point? It's not a sandwich unless you lob some kind of meat in there.

Can't understand veganism though. No eggs, no milk, no cheese? NO CHEESE? ARE YOU FUCKING NUTS?

Also Morgan Spurlock's wife in 'Supersize Me' is not a great advert for veganism. She looked malnorished and talked like she constantly had a plunger up her nose. Personally I think it was just her bloodcells unable to vasoconstrict, due to poor diet. That, and the fact she hammered on constantly about 'beautiful, natural detoxifying fresh vegetables'. Gdgdgdggg..

I'm of the opinion that Heather Mills isn't a real person at all, but a robot created by the Federation of Tabloid Newspapers to generate daft stories for them to use in quite periods. "Nothing interesting happened today? Activate the Heatherbot 3000!"

I love Quorn, and I'd quite happily eat Quorn rather than meat ALL of the time, but Craig does not feel the same. He says that Quorn mince tastes really 'sweet' which I don't much understand or agree with. It's quick and healthy, too

Quorn has got egg in, so I don't eat it, but most of the Linda McCartney and Cauldron stuff is Vegan, so that's great when I'm feeling lazy.

I'm really not that fussed about cheese, I don't miss it, I always thought it was rather sickly. *hides*

Quorn mince is another one of those that's hard to distinguish from the real thing. The quorn is slightly less chewy, I'd say. The consistency is hard to get right, but then it IS just some kind of dodgy mushroom, isn't it?

The gf is one of those fish-eating vegetarians, because I think if she just had to live off fruit and veg she'd go mental. I don't think she gives a toss about whether or not other people would consider her to be a bonafide vegetarian by that standard, as it's not like she's trying to join a club. She'll eat what she wants and all of your labels can be damned.

On a related note, however, the gf once did apply for a job at the Vegetarian Society, and they were going to invite her for an interview but rang beforehand and asked her if she ate fish. She said that yes, she did (a fairly common variation of a 'vegetarian') and on that basis told her they couldn't take her application further.

Naturally I was fucking incensed and I think it's discrimination of the worst kind - because it's such a stupid reason to discount someone for a job. Do they look at experience, skills, capability? No, they want to know if you eat fish, and if you do, well, you can just fuck off then. Meanwhile I'm sure some drooling moron got the job purely on the grounds that they were 'hardcore' enough.

Mind you, I once met someone else who previously worked for the Vegetarian Society, and he was just fucking weird.

Quorn mince is indeed, fairly indistinguishable. But people who love eating meat don't love it for mince, right? Find me a quorn steak that is comparable to a thick chunk of sirloin steak cooked rare, and that might make a difference.

Ooh, I just thought to mention that it was a topic on veganism that first introduced me to WoS. Mr Marsh told me about a topic discussing veganism where a Mister Anthony Flack had written loads of first hand info about his family of bee farmers in NZ, saying how it was totally humane, which I found very informative and interesting, so I signed up