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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 19:18 
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Bloody amazing.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 20:33 
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I bet you read for fun.

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It's an amazing game. I liked the story a lot. I never even bothered to finish GTA IV, but I played this one through to the end, eager to see what would happen.

Didn't care for the feel of the, "I WANT MY FAMILY BACK GIVE ME MY GODDAMN FAMILY BACK-- oh, look, some flowers to pick." Aspect of the game with collectibles and challenges.

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Liked the story. Liked the size of the world. HATED the integration of the two. The entire RDR world is supposed to be, what, 28 square miles or something -- it's roughly seven miles from one end of the map to the other (Blackwater to Escalara) diagonally. A few things about this bugged me.

First, why so many houses if John already has a house at Beecher's Hope? (I thought it was a new house for them to settle into, but it's implied that Uncle has been there for awhile, fucking up the farm while John was gone.) There's something like thirteen different locations for John to stay in (most of which he has to pay for, either to rent or to buy) when the entire world takes two hours to ride across. Why wouldn't he just stay in his family home instead? (Also, why was his family home always empty during the majority of the game, even when Uncle was supposed to be there?)

Second, John acts like everything he sees is some new and foreign place. I know that people were generally less mobile then, but the world is seven miles across. John was in a gang that wandered around the area committing crimes, but he's never seen McFarlane's ranch before even though it's close enough to his own farm that he can herd cattle from one to the other in a single afternoon? When he first wakes up in McFarlane's ranch, you might as well have told him that he was waking up on the moon for all the familiarity he seems to have with it. He has no idea how to get into Mexico, when he lives a mile or two from it. Thieves Landing, Blackwater, Manzanita Outpost -- none of these places are familiar to him, so where did he shop for shit when he lived at Beecher's Hope prior to the beginning of the game?

It's clunky in that regard. The story was beautiful. The world was beautiful. They didn't seamlessly mesh, however.


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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 20:40 

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I'M RIDING A HORSIE!


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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 21:05 
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STOP BEING SO SHIT

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Grand Theft Horsey managed to go from the shittest ending ever, to the greatest ending ever, then all the way back to the shittest ending ever.

  • Reunite with your wife and son: Fine.
  • Do the most boring "work" missions this side of working at the dock in Shenmue: Fuck off.
  • Grand shootout ending with the death of John: Brilliant excecution - OK, all those wind-down missions now make sense, etc... BEST ENDING EVER.
  • Playing the son: Christ on a fucking unicycle... You've just made the last hour of the game making John's son a whiny little bitch and completely unrelatable, and now you want me to fucking play an older version of him with dubious facial hair? Fuck off.
  • Finding out the real final mission is started via a stranger and ends with a piss weak duel against a pensioner on the river bank. Shoot him in the head, turn to camera, and finally the credits roll: Really? That's the best you can do, Rockstar? Cock Off.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 22:06 
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I've stopped playing it tbh. Probably pick it up again sometime soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:01 
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Mentski wrote:
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Grand Theft Horsey managed to go from the shittest ending ever, to the greatest ending ever, then all the way back to the shittest ending ever.

  • Reunite with your wife and son: Fine.
  • Do the most boring "work" missions this side of working at the dock in Shenmue: Fuck off.
  • Grand shootout ending with the death of John: Brilliant excecution - OK, all those wind-down missions now make sense, etc... BEST ENDING EVER.
  • Playing the son: Christ on a fucking unicycle... You've just made the last hour of the game making John's son a whiny little bitch and completely unrelatable, and now you want me to fucking play an older version of him with dubious facial hair? Fuck off.
  • Finding out the real final mission is started via a stranger and ends with a piss weak duel against a pensioner on the river bank. Shoot him in the head, turn to camera, and finally the credits roll: Really? That's the best you can do, Rockstar? Cock Off.


Whereas I...

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..was energised in the extreme to avenge John and his wife. I was more upset when it showed you her grave next to John's. I blarted. Don't mind telling people that. I blarted.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:05 
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Yup, disagree with Mentski there. Particularly the very last point, I thought it was superb.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:32 
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Bad Girl

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:this: but I thought having his son as a playable character was a clever way to continue letting you explore the rest of the world doing stranger missions and whatever else you've missed without breaking the continuity of the main story.

I'd also started one stranger mission with John but when Jack turned up to finish it off, the dialog was different with the man remarking "You remind me of another kind soul" which I thought was a lovely touch.

I've played some multiplayer now (which, to be honest, if it'd load up a damn sight quicker I'd probably play it more than the ridiculous amount of hours I've put into MW2) which is brilliant! The stand-offs are a brilliant idea; the free roam missions; the voice over guys voice (Is that the same guy from Halo 3??); creaping around the maps with a loaded sawn off shotgun waiting to unload it into some guys face; getting shot off your horsey (rather you than me); the leveling up system, etc. It's all cracking stuff. Are bezzies still playing this or not? The only problem I ever had was the same problem in the main game. Your characters handling is piss poor.


Last edited by Doctor Glyndwr on Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:39, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 19:32 
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STOP BEING SO SHIT

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Ian Fairies wrote:
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:this: but I thought having his son as a playable character was a clever way to continue letting you explore the rest of the world doing stranger missions and whatever else you've missed without breaking the continuity of the main story.

I'd also started one stranger mission with John but when Jack turned up to finish it off, the dialog was different with the man remarking "You remind me of another kind soul" which I thought was a lovely touch.


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I'll admit, it was a useful way of letting people continue to play the game after Johns death, but I honestly feel that the official ending (with credit roll) should have been shown after the gravestone scene (maybe even before with him dead on the ground and his family around him), not hidden away in a lacklustre hidden stranger quest.

The problem is not only is his son already unlikable due to his actions in the "farm work" missions just before, but it also takes the redemption theme of the whole game and pisses it down the toilet, by ending it on a fucking revenge killing. Dreadful.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 21:48 
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Bad Girl

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Doesn't redemption mean atonement for guilt? You might disagree but others might argue that was his motivation for the killing.


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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 21:57 
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The point was that not only could John Marston not escape from his past, but it would drag his son with it. In the end, you have the choice to hunt down and kill a retired pensioner, it isn't a fair fight and that is the point.

I understand your point, but I've never felt as bloody angry on seeing John Marstons fate and in that sense, the storytelling worked. It isn't Shakespeare, but no game has got remotely close to telling a story well, but RDR is as close as I've seen.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 14:26 
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Bad Girl

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Hang on, I don't see his son being dragged into John's past. Jack doesn't have a story for a start except that one stranger mission; he just appears dressed similar but to be fair he doesn't look out of place with attire worn by everyone else. You don't learn anything about him, probably because he's just an avatar to allow you to continue in the gameworld. The last mission is an easter egg for all intents.

I don't agree that the last fight isn't a fair one. It's well established in the gameworld up until then that disagreements are settled by duel. And I don't see that you [as the player] hasa choice about the outcome of the mission once you start it. Jack never thinks "let bygones be bygones" - he wants to murder this man in cold blood for the wrongs committed to his father and mother.


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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 14:35 
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Of course he's dragged in. Instead of being a farmer/rancher like his father wanted he instead murders to continue the cycle of violence.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 14:36 
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John wanted his son to be a farmer, and worked to provide a safe environment for him to grow up. Despite his efforts, the farm getting attacked meant that his son grew up without a Dad and ended up an angry gunslinger just like his old man.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 14:44 
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That's a lot of spoiler tags.

Want to swap a lend of this for the new Splinter Cell, Cras?

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 14:50 
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He has no story. He might be angry at the loss of his father, but we don't know that he's a murderer who runs with a gang like John did. We don't know that he doesn't farms either.

Look at the evidence: His mother was buried next to John on their farm home 4 years after John's death, you start as Jack from the farm; so it looks like Jack had been allowed to continue living with his mother on the farm since John's death, so he may well become a farmer. An angry farmer.

EDIT: And gunslinging wouldn't preclude him as a farmer either as it was obvious from playing as John that being adept with a gun was needed to fend off wild animals and poachers etc


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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 14:52 
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He shoots the old man. He is a murderer. Killing people = murderer.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 14:55 
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Not in the context of the game: duels settled with gunfire, disagreement's settled the same way, poachers killed for stealing etc it was the way of the west.


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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 15:00 
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But it's perpetuating the cycle of violence that John was trying to break! How can that mean his son did not get caught up with his past?"

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 15:07 
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Ian Fairies wrote:
it was the way of the west.


It was the way of the Old West.

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The whole point of the third section of the game is demonstrating the creeping civilisation that had turned John Marston into (supposedly) the last of a dying breed. The new world that was coming had no place for gunslingers, and hence no place for Jack Marston now that's what he's become.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 15:21 
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Bad Girl

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Look, put it in context. He has no story except and that last redemption and his starting position. You've got nothing to base your arguments that Jack Marston was a gunslinging murderer following in his fathers footprints. You're both projecting onto him.

It's likely that he was a farmer living a sullen existance on his parents farm.


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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 15:22 
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He shot a man with a gun!!

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 15:27 
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That man took him away from his father and mother and locked him and his mother up until his father had done unspeakable deeds for that man's own gain, and just when he thought that he'd got his dad back that same man sent the army to increase his father's carbon footprint 1000%


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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 15:30 
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Ian Fairies wrote:
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That man took him away from his father and mother and locked him and his mother up until his father had done unspeakable deeds for that man's own gain, and just when he thought that he'd got his dad back that same man sent the army to increase his father's carbon footprint 1000%


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So you agree that he's been swept up in his father's decisions and life path! Excellent. I knew we'd get there.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 15:56 
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Bad Girl

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Don't be so presumptious. It was the motivation for his act of redemption.

I think we're going round in circles here, but it's a testament to how absorbing the game was that you'd want to (wrongly) overlay Jack's adult persona with your own (wrong) backstory filling in the years you never saw.


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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 15:59 
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I've re-read your previous post and can't see any other way that the words could be interpreted.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 15:59 
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Except that I agree with Dim and think you've totally missed the point of the last quarter of the game. And also the meaning of the word 'redemption'.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 16:07 
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Indeed. The point missed so spectacularly that he's killed the judge standing behind him at the archery contest.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 16:25 
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Don't insult my intelligence. Your comments about the Old West in the last quarter are clear to anyone who played the game all the way through even if they skipped the dialogue. It was the blindly obvious the direction they were going the first time John got into the car.

Redemption as I said earlier I've taken as "atonement for guilt" in the context of the story. You can disagree all you like with my alternative interpretation of adult Jack, but you must realise that you're both projecting a story onto Jack that simply isn't told through story or otherwise.

It's not wrong (I was kidding above) but I'm proposing a different intrepretation on the character we only briefly get to see.


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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 16:29 
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I'm not trying to insult anything. I can't work out where you think Jack has some guilt he needs to redeem. The one thing he has is anger. He grew up without a dad, and he grew up angry. The whole "hunt down the old man and gun him down" thing isn't redemption, it's revenge. And if you think he suddenly stopped his idyllic happy farmer life one day and rode off to kill his dad's murderer, well that's just bizarre. It may not be explicitly spelled out, but it's clear from the last 'mission', and the way Jack dresses (like a gunman, not a farmer) that he's gone down his father's path, which is exactly what John didn't want.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 16:29 
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:shrug:
I disagree completely and totally with your assessment of the events, the motives and morals behind them.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 16:30 
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Also what Craster said.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 16:30 
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I agree with that, even.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 16:31 
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Not disagree.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 16:31 
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Just to be clear.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 16:31 
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To you.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 16:31 
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Ian.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 16:32 
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Hugs and kisses,

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 16:32 
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Dimrill.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 16:47 
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Bad Girl

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:belm: :wrong:

Kept me entertained this afternoon anyway. Whoop!


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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 17:11 

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Um, I also agree with Dimrill and Craster.

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It's not factually stated that the death of John caused Jack to head down the path of a gunslinger, but heavily implied. What isn't implied, at least as far as I could see whilst playing the game, is that he decided to live the quiet, peaceful life of a farmer, who one day randomly flipped and decided to hunt down the man responsible for his father's death and murder him in cold blood.

It's been ages since I finished RDR so I don't remember it all exactly, but I seem to remember the suggestion somewhere in the game that Jack had been hunting the old man for a while. I could be wrong about this particular detail though.

Also, surely the 'redemption' of the title is John's? The man is a criminal and a killer, who falls in love and chooses to live an honest life with his wife and child. The whole purpose of the game is that John is forced to return to his former life in order to save his family. What this game does have more in common with westerns and gangster movies than any if the GTA games is an idea of morality. Whichever way you swing it, John is a criminal who has destroyed lives. He may 'come good', but no anti-hero can ever actually 'win' in the end.


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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:27 
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I tried out Red Dead Redemption: Undead Nightmare a few days ago, and it is bloody good fun.

Have a gander at my hands-on preview, if ya wanna.

For those who can't be bothered reading my report, he's the gist of my opinion:

Quote:
Rockstar Games has gone to pains to provide an all-new gaming experience. Like a digital Dr. Frankenstein, the company has stitched together the best parts from previous zombie games. You've got the stronghold sieges from Nazi Zombies, the hapless survivors from Dead Rising, the assortment of different zombie types from Left 4 Dead and the ammo conservation from Resident Evil. All these elements are tied to a compelling narrative with the original voice actors in tow: not bad for 15 bucks.


It plays things completely straight, but still manages to be very funny.


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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:36 
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Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
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Location: Cheshire
I'm really enjoying it so far.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 13:59 
Excellent Member

Joined: 13th Oct, 2010
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Location: Livingston, Scotland
MaliA wrote:
I'm really enjoying it so far.


So here I am, jumping in to the fifteenth page of comments :)

Loving RDR to death, although I'm not a GTA fan. Only about half-way through Mexico so I've got loads still to go. The problem is I'm easily distracted and there's just too many ace things to wander off and do instead of what I'm supposed to be doing :*)

John

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 14:01 
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Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
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Location: Cheshire
I have no idea what I'm meant to be doing, but herding the cows was fun (a bit like Firefly) and Liar's Dice is a fun game. People keep shooting me, though, which kinda sucks. How do I break horses?

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 14:02 
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Hibernating Druid

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
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Location: Standing on your mother's Porsche
Throw them out of church windows.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 14:07 
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Eggcellent Member

Joined: 16th Aug, 2008
Posts: 412
You need to lasoo the one you like the look off then pull it towards you, mount it and then hold on (use the controls to balance) as it tries to throw you. I think that you then need to go and hitch it so that it becomes yours.

I'm not sure whether I've described RDR or a night out in Newport :)


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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 14:14 
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Time Out for Fun

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 5039
Location: South Shields
I bought a game of liars dice when I went to America for 10 bucks, which is a fair bit for what is essentially 20 dice and 4 plastic cups. Its a much better game against real people rather than the predictable AI.


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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 13:21 
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Ready for action

Joined: 9th Mar, 2009
Posts: 8548
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choobs wrote:
MaliA wrote:
I'm really enjoying it so far.


So here I am, jumping in to the fifteenth page of comments :)

Loving RDR to death, although I'm not a GTA fan. Only about half-way through Mexico so I've got loads still to go. The problem is I'm easily distracted and there's just too many ace things to wander off and do instead of what I'm supposed to be doing :*)

John

I played it when I got it and then drifted away from it so I think I've made even less progress than you! I should really try and finish it. Been playing Dead Space when I want a single player game but that's far too scary to play when I'm home alone :D


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 Post subject: Re: Red Dead Redemption
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 19:35 
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UltraMod

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 55716
Location: California
DLC disc on its way - who'd have seen that coming?

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