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 Post subject: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 14:50 
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What-ho, chaps!

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 2138
Quote:
The Boots card is about the only loyalty card worth having IMO and certainly the only one I have. The point allocation is very generous.


I can't be bothered with any store cards unless they immediately give me free money or cake. (This doesn't happen often.)

I went into M A T A L A N™ a fortnight ago to buy myself some ninja pants and I was suprised to find out that M A T A L A N™ still have their STUPID membership bollocks in effect. To buy anything from them, you need to 'be a member' of the shop.

So I 'became a member'. Again. That makes about twenty times in total now. Every time I reach a dozen cards, I snap them all on the bus home and chuck 'em a wheelie bin. It's good fun thinking of aliases, though I do usually pick whoever I last played as in a game. Who'd have though Zack Fair, Apollo Justice, Mia Fey and Claude Speed all lived a good few miles south of me in the awesomely named (real) village of 'Noctorum'.

WHY DO THEY DO SUCH A THING?

Also, when paying for the ninja pants, I wanted to use my card. Turns out the chip and PIN machine at the till I was using was broken. Instead, they offered to check the signature. They looked absolutely horrified when I said I though that wasn't good enough.* They grumbled and shuffled me over to another till.

I thought they couldn't do signature verification unless all the chip and PIN machines in the universe were broken, or something.

*I didn't yell 'THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH DIE.', I just said I thought they couldn't do that, and I'd like to pay through the machine.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 14:56 
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I refuse to pay for anything by card in Marks & Spencer in Lancaster as they insist on handling your card. If you want to pay by card they take it off you and swipe it through the machine and gold onto it whilst you enter your pin on the little keypad and then hand you your card back only once they receipt, etc is printed.

they have the little chip and pin console but always bark at you to hand your card over anyway. I have,a couple of times just shoved my card into the machine and stood there. The cashier eventually says; "I'll swipe your card through here", to which I have said that I would rather use the little console, to which I have had the reply 'If you insist', or 'well, if you must' and then evil looks... I don't know why they do this but it annoys me as I don't want people to handle my card for absolutely no reason.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 14:58 
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Legendary Boogeyman

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Sainsburys > Tesco purely because Sainsburys points are held on the card, negating the need to wait for fucking months before tesco deign to send you your vouchers in the post. Since I fail to update my clubcard address when I move, I'm not feeling the value of tesco.

If memory serves, Sainsburys do this:

2 points per £1 spent. 500 points = £2.50 in spendable vouchers.

Tesco do this:

1 point per £1 spend, 1000 points needed for £10 worth of vouchers.

So, think about it:

To get £10 of free goods at Sainsburys, you have to spend £1000 (2000 points = 2.50 * 4)

To get £10 of free goods at Tesco, you have to spend..... £1000 (1000 points = £10).

ITS THE SAME DAMN SYSTEM WITH DIFFERENT DENOMINATIONS USED. JUST TO FOOL YOU. YOU FOOLS.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 14:59 
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baron of techno

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
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MrD wrote:
Also, when paying for the ninja pants, I wanted to use my card. Turns out the chip and PIN machine at the till I was using was broken. Instead, they offered to check the signature. They looked absolutely horrified when I said I though that wasn't good enough.* They grumbled and shuffled me over to another till.

I thought they couldn't do signature verification unless all the chip and PIN machines in the universe were broken, or something.

*I didn't yell 'THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH DIE.', I just said I thought they couldn't do that, and I'd like to pay through the machine.


It's up to the shop. If they allow you to sign for a transaction (for whatever reason), the shop is not covered if you defraud them. The bank takes the risk in the case of chip and PIN, because.. there isn't really a risk there.

There's no harm to *you* in having to sign for it though. Other than, obv, remembering how to sign your name :D


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:02 
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baron of techno

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Mimi wrote:
I have,a couple of times just shoved my card into the machine and stood there. The cashier eventually says; "I'll swipe your card through here", to which I have said that I would rather use the little console, to which I have had the reply 'If you insist', or 'well, if you must' and then evil looks... I don't know why they do this but it annoys me as I don't want people to handle my card for absolutely no reason.


You are quite within your rights. They are probably using your card's mag details as a form of loyalty card (without you giving them permission, mind). But it also provides an opportunity for skimming.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:07 
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I forgot about this - how vain

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I generally think that a few pence in the pound "reward" is not worth giving the company a detailed breakdown of everything I buy, where I buy it and when. Tied to who I am.

I talked to a friend who work's quite high up in Sainsburys sales and they explained to me that they analyse your purchases to see what economic class you are likely to fall into (finest/value range etc) and then sell this information to marketers, banks and credit agencies.

Obviously individual information can't be sold (yet), so they sell it buy post code. In 'blocks' of a street.

I loathe loyalty cards. They are evil as fuck.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:08 
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INFINITE POWAH

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MrD wrote:
some ninja pants

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:08 
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What-ho, chaps!

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For ninjaing in.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:09 
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INFINITE POWAH

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Plspstpxofnnjpntsplsthnksokbi.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:14 
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INFINITE POWAH

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To return to the original topic of the thread, I loathe chip and pin. Absolutely loathe it.

The sole and only purpose for it was to shift the liability for fraud from the bank (who used to bear responsibility for ensuring the signatures were correct*) to the consumer (who now has to ensure security of their card and their PIN). Well, I can understand that banks don't necessarily want to carry the can for idiot customers who have easily copyable signatures and leave their cards lying around, but given the vast number of ways that your Chip 'n' PIN arrangement can be gotten around that the average consumer is unaware of, it seems a smidge unfair to me.

*The banks have little electronic records of your signatures. I had an interesting time whilst in a branch looking at the progression of my signatures over the last 10 years, and noticing that somehow my dad's signature had ended up on my account records as being an acceptable one for the account. Excellent. It's not even remotely similar to mine.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:19 
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I forgot about this - how vain

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I was just going to say what Mr Chris said above. He's absolutely right.

All chip&pin did was shift responsibility to the consumer. The only people it protects is the bank (and possibly shops).

And as far as I can tell the pin number is held encrypted on the card itself which means it's easily hackable.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:19 
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baron of techno

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Mr Chris wrote:
Quote:
but given the vast number of ways that your Chip 'n' PIN arrangement can be gotten around that the average consumer is unaware of, it seems a smidge unfair to me.


Perhaps it isn't fair, but what are the vast number of ways you're referring to? A list please.

And this is to be compared to the single glaringly massive hole of having the only customer verification measure *written on the back of the card*


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:22 
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baron of techno

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Lave wrote:
All chip&pin did was shift responsibility to the consumer. The only people it protects is the bank (and possibly shops).

And also provides a massively improved level of security for everyone.

If you lose your card, nobody can spend money with it. This is a good thing.

Quote:
And as far as I can tell the pin number is held encrypted on the card itself which means it's easily hackable.


It's not easily hackable, in fact nobody has managed to do it yet.

It is possible to obtain the pin during a transaction using a hacked pinpad, but then you've got the pin and you haven't got the card, so it's not terribly useful.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:23 
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Who holds the liability in the case of these new sub-£10 no pin, no signature, just swipe and go transactions?

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:25 
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baron of techno

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Craster wrote:
Who holds the liability in the case of these new sub-£10 no pin, no signature, just swipe and go transactions?


You mean contactless? You do. If you lose your card, you just lost £10. Live with it :)


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:26 
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Commander-in-Cheese

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kalmar wrote:
Craster wrote:
Who holds the liability in the case of these new sub-£10 no pin, no signature, just swipe and go transactions?


You mean contactless? You do. If you lose your card, you just lost £10. Live with it :)


Nope - normal credit and debit cards. Sub £10 transactions can be put through without needing your PIN.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:27 
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INFINITE POWAH

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Posts: 30498
kalmar wrote:
Mr Chris wrote:
Quote:
but given the vast number of ways that your Chip 'n' PIN arrangement can be gotten around that the average consumer is unaware of, it seems a smidge unfair to me.


Perhaps it isn't fair, but what are the vast number of ways you're referring to? A list please.


Well, I haven't kept records, but I've lost count of the number of time I've heard of vulnerabilities either in the general media or places like The Register. It's not a completely secure system. Look over someone's shoulder and then nick their card being the most low tech circumvention. I'm skimming through the search feature on El Reg for some technical examples.


Quote:
And this is to be compared to the single glaringly massive hole of having the only customer verification measure *written on the back of the card*


Which was the bank's problem not mine.

And there's still the enormous hole that you can just use a stolen card online without the PIN or a signature. And who bears liability for that, eh? Excellent stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:30 
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What-ho, chaps!

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 2138
And isn't that what this forum's all about? :p

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:32 
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kalmar wrote:
It's not easily hackable, in fact nobody has managed to do it yet.

The PINSentry device that Barclays insist I use to sign on to the online banking knows whether I've typed in the correct PIN.

It does this without connecting to the Internet or anything like that.

The PIN must therefore be on the card.

If the PINSentry device can decipher the (presumably) encrypted PIN then it is more than likely a trivial matter to reverse engineer the way the PINSentry device actually does it.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:32 
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I don't know if I have had a different experience to most people, but whenever my debit card has been defrauded, the bank has always refunded me the money. Has the bank been particularly generous to me, or is that just standard practice? If the latter, what's the bloody problem?

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:34 
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baron of techno

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GazChap wrote:
kalmar wrote:
It's not easily hackable, in fact nobody has managed to do it yet.

The PINSentry device that Barclays insist I use to sign on to the online banking knows whether I've typed in the correct PIN.
It does this without connecting to the Internet or anything like that.

The PIN that you've typed in is sent to the card. The card says "yes, the PIN is correct" or "no, it's not correct". You usually get 3 goes before the card says "get lost".

Quote:
The PIN must therefore be on the card.

Correct.

Quote:
If the PINSentry device can decipher the (presumably) encrypted PIN

It doesn't decrypt anything.

Quote:
then it is more than likely a trivial matter to reverse engineer the way the PINSentry device actually does it.


Getting the PIN out of the card is very difficult, and nobody's been able to do it yet. The PINSentry doesn't do it so that's not a clue :)


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:40 
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I think it stores it using some sort of one-way hashing. Get the pin, do some long-winded mangling to it and check it against the premangled data on the card. If it matches, you're OK. Probably mangles it up with some other data as well ( card number ?) so that it increases the number of possible permutations. The raw pin isn't stored on the chip in any kind of extractable form.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:44 
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Squirt wrote:
I think it stores it using some sort of one-way hashing. Get the pin, do some long-winded mangling to it and check it against the premangled data on the card. If it matches, you're OK. Probably mangles it up with some other data as well ( card number ?) so that it increases the number of possible permutations.


Exactly this. Salted hashing ago-go.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:45 
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That.



War and Peace

by Leo Tolstoy/Tolstoi




BOOK ONE: 1805




CHAPTER I


"Well, Prince, so Genoa and Lucca are now just family estates of the
Buonapartes. But I warn you, if you don't tell me that this means war,
if you still try to defend the infamies and horrors perpetrated by
that Antichrist- I really believe he is Antichrist- I will have
nothing more to do with you and you are no longer my friend, no longer
my 'faithful slave,' as you call yourself! But how do you do? I see
I have frightened you- sit down and tell me all the news."

It was in July, 1805, and the speaker was the well-known Anna
Pavlovna Scherer, maid of honor and favorite of the Empress Marya
Fedorovna. With these words she greeted Prince Vasili Kuragin, a man
of high rank and importance, who was the first to arrive at her
reception. Anna Pavlovna had had a cough for some days. She was, as
she said, suffering from la grippe; grippe being then a new word in
St. Petersburg, used only by the elite.

All her invitations without exception, written in French, and
delivered by a scarlet-liveried footman that morning, ran as follows:

"If you have nothing better to do, Count [or Prince], and if the
prospect of spending an evening with a poor invalid is not too
terrible, I shall be very charmed to see you tonight between 7 and 10-
Annette Scherer."

"Heavens! what a virulent attack!" replied the prince, not in the
least disconcerted by this reception. He had just entered, wearing
an embroidered court uniform, knee breeches, and shoes, and had
stars on his breast and a serene expression on his flat face. He spoke
in that refined French in which our grandfathers not only spoke but
thought, and with the gentle, patronizing intonation natural to a
man of importance who had grown old in society and at court. He went
up to Anna Pavlovna, kissed her hand, presenting to her his bald,
scented, and shining head, and complacently seated himself on the
sofa.

"First of all, dear friend, tell me how you are. Set your friend's
mind at rest," said he without altering his tone, beneath the
politeness and affected sympathy of which indifference and even
irony could be discerned.

"Can one be well while suffering morally? Can one be calm in times
like these if one has any feeling?" said Anna Pavlovna. "You are
staying the whole evening, I hope?"

"And the fete at the English ambassador's? Today is Wednesday. I
must put in an appearance there," said the prince. "My daughter is
coming for me to take me there."

"I thought today's fete had been canceled. I confess all these
festivities and fireworks are becoming wearisome."

"If they had known that you wished it, the entertainment would
have been put off," said the prince, who, like a wound-up clock, by
force of habit said things he did not even wish to be believed.

"Don't tease! Well, and what has been decided about Novosiltsev's
dispatch? You know everything."

"What can one say about it?" replied the prince in a cold,
listless tone. "What has been decided? They have decided that
Buonaparte has burnt his boats, and I believe that we are ready to
burn ours."

Prince Vasili always spoke languidly, like an actor repeating a
stale part. Anna Pavlovna Scherer on the contrary, despite her forty
years, overflowed with animation and impulsiveness. To be an
enthusiast had become her social vocation and, sometimes even when she
did not feel like it, she became enthusiastic in order not to
disappoint the expectations of those who knew her. The subdued smile
which, though it did not suit her faded features, always played
round her lips expressed, as in a spoiled child, a continual
consciousness of her charming defect, which she neither wished, nor
could, nor considered it necessary, to correct.

In the midst of a conversation on political matters Anna Pavlovna
burst out:

"Oh, don't speak to me of Austria. Perhaps I don't understand
things, but Austria never has wished, and does not wish, for war.
She is betraying us! Russia alone must save Europe. Our gracious
sovereign recognizes his high vocation and will be true to it. That is
the one thing I have faith in! Our good and wonderful sovereign has to
perform the noblest role on earth, and he is so virtuous and noble
that God will not forsake him. He will fulfill his vocation and
crush the hydra of revolution, which has become more terrible than
ever in the person of this murderer and villain! We alone must
avenge the blood of the just one.... Whom, I ask you, can we rely
on?... England with her commercial spirit will not and cannot
understand the Emperor Alexander's loftiness of soul. She has
refused to evacuate Malta. She wanted to find, and still seeks, some
secret motive in our actions. What answer did Novosiltsev get? None.
The English have not understood and cannot understand the
self-abnegation of our Emperor who wants nothing for himself, but only
desires the good of mankind. And what have they promised? Nothing! And
what little they have promised they will not perform! Prussia has
always declared that Buonaparte is invincible, and that all Europe
is powerless before him.... And I don't believe a word that Hardenburg
says, or Haugwitz either. This famous Prussian neutrality is just a
trap. I have faith only in God and the lofty destiny of our adored
monarch. He will save Europe!"

She suddenly paused, smiling at her own impetuosity.

"I think," said the prince with a smile, "that if you had been
sent instead of our dear Wintzingerode you would have captured the
King of Prussia's consent by assault. You are so eloquent. Will you
give me a cup of tea?"

"In a moment. A propos," she added, becoming calm again, "I am
expecting two very interesting men tonight, le Vicomte de Mortemart,
who is connected with the Montmorencys through the Rohans, one of
the best French families. He is one of the genuine emigres, the good
ones. And also the Abbe Morio. Do you know that profound thinker? He
has been received by the Emperor. Had you heard?"

"I shall be delighted to meet them," said the prince. "But tell me,"
he added with studied carelessness as if it had only just occurred
to him, though the question he was about to ask was the chief motive
of his visit, "is it true that the Dowager Empress wants Baron Funke
to be appointed first secretary at Vienna? The baron by all accounts
is a poor creature."

Prince Vasili wished to obtain this post for his son, but others
were trying through the Dowager Empress Marya Fedorovna to secure it
for the baron.

Anna Pavlovna almost closed her eyes to indicate that neither she
nor anyone else had a right to criticize what the Empress desired or
was pleased with.

"Baron Funke has been recommended to the Dowager Empress by her
sister," was all she said, in a dry and mournful tone.

As she named the Empress, Anna Pavlovna's face suddenly assumed an
expression of profound and sincere devotion and respect mingled with
sadness, and this occurred every time she mentioned her illustrious
patroness. She added that Her Majesty had deigned to show Baron
Funke beaucoup d'estime, and again her face clouded over with sadness.

The prince was silent and looked indifferent. But, with the
womanly and courtierlike quickness and tact habitual to her, Anna
Pavlovna wished both to rebuke him (for daring to speak he had done of
a man recommended to the Empress) and at the same time to console him,
so she said:

"Now about your family. Do you know that since your daughter came
out everyone has been enraptured by her? They say she is amazingly
beautiful."

The prince bowed to signify his respect and gratitude.

"I often think," she continued after a short pause, drawing nearer
to the prince and smiling amiably at him as if to show that
political and social topics were ended and the time had come for
intimate conversation- "I often think how unfairly sometimes the
joys of life are distributed. Why has fate given you two such splendid
children? I don't speak of Anatole, your youngest. I don't like
him," she added in a tone admitting of no rejoinder and raising her
eyebrows. "Two such charming children. And really you appreciate
them less than anyone, and so you don't deserve to have them."

And she smiled her ecstatic smile.

"I can't help it," said the prince. "Lavater would have said I
lack the bump of paternity."

"Don't joke; I mean to have a serious talk with you. Do you know I
am dissatisfied with your younger son? Between ourselves" (and her
face assumed its melancholy expression), "he was mentioned at Her
Majesty's and you were pitied...."

The prince answered nothing, but she looked at him significantly,
awaiting a reply. He frowned.

"What would you have me do?" he said at last. "You know I did all
a father could for their education, and they have both turned out
fools. Hippolyte is at least a quiet fool, but Anatole is an active
one. That is the only difference between them." He said this smiling
in a way more natural and animated than usual, so that the wrinkles
round his mouth very clearly revealed something unexpectedly coarse
and unpleasant.

"And why are children born to such men as you? If you were not a
father there would be nothing I could reproach you with," said Anna
Pavlovna, looking up pensively.

"I am your faithful slave and to you alone I can confess that my
children are the bane of my life. It is the cross I have to bear. That
is how I explain it to myself. It can't be helped!"

He said no more, but expressed his resignation to cruel fate by a
gesture. Anna Pavlovna meditated.

"Have you never thought of marrying your prodigal son Anatole?"
she asked. "They say old maids have a mania for matchmaking, and
though I don't feel that weakness in myself as yet,I know a little
person who is very unhappy with her father. She is a relation of
yours, Princess Mary Bolkonskaya."

Prince Vasili did not reply, though, with the quickness of memory
and perception befitting a man of the world, he indicated by a
movement of the head that he was considering this information.

"Do you know," he said at last, evidently unable to check the sad
current of his thoughts, "that Anatole is costing me forty thousand
rubles a year? And," he went on after a pause, "what will it be in
five years, if he goes on like this?" Presently he added: "That's what
we fathers have to put up with.... Is this princess of yours rich?"

"Her father is very rich and stingy. He lives in the country. He
is the well-known Prince Bolkonski who had to retire from the army
under the late Emperor, and was nicknamed 'the King of Prussia.' He is
very clever but eccentric, and a bore. The poor girl is very
unhappy. She has a brother; I think you know him, he married Lise
Meinen lately. He is an aide-de-camp of Kutuzov's and will be here
tonight."

"Listen, dear Annette," said the prince, suddenly taking Anna
Pavlovna's hand and for some reason drawing it downwards. "Arrange
that affair for me and I shall always be your most devoted slave-
slafe wigh an f, as a village elder of mine writes in his reports. She
is rich and of good family and that's all I want."

And with the familiarity and easy grace peculiar to him, he raised
the maid of honor's hand to his lips, kissed it, and swung it to and
fro as he lay back in his armchair, looking in another direction.

"Attendez," said Anna Pavlovna, reflecting, "I'll speak to Lise,
young Bolkonski's wife, this very evening, and perhaps the thing can
be arranged. It shall be on your family's behalf that I'll start my
apprenticeship as old maid."





CHAPTER II


Anna Pavlovna's drawing room was gradually filling. The highest
Petersburg society was assembled there: people differing widely in age
and character but alike in the social circle to which they belonged.
Prince Vasili's daughter, the beautiful Helene, came to take her
father to the ambassador's entertainment; she wore a ball dress and
her badge as maid of honor. The youthful little Princess
Bolkonskaya, known as la femme la plus seduisante de Petersbourg,* was
also there. She had been married during the previous winter, and being
pregnant did not go to any large gatherings, but only to small
receptions. Prince Vasili's son, Hippolyte, had come with Mortemart,
whom he introduced. The Abbe Morio and many others had also come.


*The most fascinating woman in Petersburg.


To each new arrival Anna Pavlovna said, "You have not yet seen my
aunt," or "You do not know my aunt?" and very gravely conducted him or
her to a little old lady, wearing large bows of ribbon in her cap, who
had come sailing in from another room as soon as the guests began to
arrive; and slowly turning her eyes from the visitor to her aunt, Anna
Pavlovna mentioned each one's name and then left them.

Each visitor performed the ceremony of greeting this old aunt whom
not one of them knew, not one of them wanted to know, and not one of
them cared about; Anna Pavlovna observed these greetings with mournful
and solemn interest and silent approval. The aunt spoke to each of
them in the same words, about their health and her own, and the health
of Her Majesty, "who, thank God, was better today." And each
visitor, though politeness prevented his showing impatience, left
the old woman with a sense of relief at having performed a vexatious
duty and did not return to her the whole evening.

The young Princess Bolkonskaya had brought some work in a
gold-embroidered velvet bag. Her pretty little upper lip, on which a
delicate dark down was just perceptible, was too short for her
teeth, but it lifted all the more sweetly, and was especially charming
when she occasionally drew it down to meet the lower lip. As is always
the case with a thoroughly attractive woman, her defect- the shortness
of her upper lip and her half-open mouth- seemed to be her own special
and peculiar form of beauty. Everyone brightened at the sight of
this pretty young woman, so soon to become a mother, so full of life
and health, and carrying her burden so lightly. Old men and dull
dispirited young ones who looked at her, after being in her company
and talking to her a little while, felt as if they too were
becoming, like her, full of life and health. All who talked to her,
and at each word saw her bright smile and the constant gleam of her
white teeth, thought that they were in a specially amiable mood that
day.

The little princess went round the table with quick, short,
swaying steps, her workbag on her arm, and gaily spreading out her
dress sat down on a sofa near the silver samovar, as if all she was
doing was a pleasure to herself and to all around her. "I have brought
my work," said she in French, displaying her bag and addressing all
present. "Mind, Annette, I hope you have not played a wicked trick
on me," she added, turning to her hostess. "You wrote that it was to
be quite a small reception, and just see how badly I am dressed."
And she spread out her arms to show her short-waisted, lace-trimmed,
dainty gray dress, girdled with a broad ribbon just below the breast.

"Soyez tranquille, Lise, you will always be prettier than anyone
else," replied Anna Pavlovna.

"You know," said the princess in the same tone of voice and still in
French, turning to a general, "my husband is deserting me? He is going
to get himself killed. Tell me what this wretched war is for?" she
added, addressing Prince Vasili, and without waiting for an answer she
turned to speak to his daughter, the beautiful Helene.

"What a delightful woman this little princess is!" said Prince
Vasili to Anna Pavlovna.

One of the next arrivals was a stout, heavily built young man with
close-cropped hair, spectacles, the light-colored breeches fashionable
at that time, a very high ruffle, and a brown dress coat. This stout
young man was an illegitimate son of Count Bezukhov, a well-known
grandee of Catherine's time who now lay dying in Moscow. The young man
had not yet entered either the military or civil service, as he had
only just returned from abroad where he had been educated, and this
was his first appearance in society. Anna Pavlovna greeted him with
the nod she accorded to the lowest hierarchy in her drawing room.
But in spite of this lowest-grade greeting, a look of anxiety and
fear, as at the sight of something too large and unsuited to the
place, came over her face when she saw Pierre enter. Though he was
certainly rather bigger than the other men in the room, her anxiety
could only have reference to the clever though shy, but observant
and natural, expression which distinguished him from everyone else
in that drawing room.

"It is very good of you, Monsieur Pierre, to come and visit a poor
invalid," said Anna Pavlovna, exchanging an alarmed glance with her
aunt as she conducted him to her.

Pierre murmured something unintelligible, and continued to look
round as if in search of something. On his way to the aunt he bowed to
the little princess with a pleased smile, as to an intimate
acquaintance.

Anna Pavlovna's alarm was justified, for Pierre turned away from the
aunt without waiting to hear her speech about Her Majesty's health.
Anna Pavlovna in dismay detained him with the words: "Do you know
the Abbe Morio? He is a most interesting man."

"Yes, I have heard of his scheme for perpetual peace, and it is very
interesting but hardly feasible."

"You think so?" rejoined Anna Pavlovna in order to say something and
get away to attend to her duties as hostess. But Pierre now
committed a reverse act of impoliteness. First he had left a lady
before she had finished speaking to him, and now he continued to speak
to another who wished to get away. With his head bent, and his big
feet spread apart, he began explaining his reasons for thinking the
abbe's plan chimerical.

"We will talk of it later," said Anna Pavlovna with a smile.

And having got rid of this young man who did not know how to behave,
she resumed her duties as hostess and continued to listen and watch,
ready to help at any point where the conversation might happen to
flag. As the foreman of a spinning mill, when he has set the hands
to work, goes round and notices here a spindle that has stopped or
there one that creaks or makes more noise than it should, and
hastens to check the machine or set it in proper motion, so Anna
Pavlovna moved about her drawing room, approaching now a silent, now a
too-noisy group, and by a word or slight rearrangement kept the
conversational machine in steady, proper, and regular motion. But amid
these cares her anxiety about Pierre was evident. She kept an
anxious watch on him when he approached the group round Mortemart to
listen to what was being said there, and again when he passed to
another group whose center was the abbe.

Pierre had been educated abroad, and this reception at Anna
Pavlovna's was the first he had attended in Russia. He knew that all
the intellectual lights of Petersburg were gathered there and, like
a child in a toyshop, did not know which way to look, afraid of
missing any clever conversation that was to be heard. Seeing the
self-confident and refined expression on the faces of those present he
was always expecting to hear something very profound. At last he
came up to Morio. Here the conversation seemed interesting and he
stood waiting for an opportunity to express his own views, as young
people are fond of doing.




CHAPTER III


Anna Pavlovna's reception was in full swing. The spindles hummed
steadily and ceaselessly on all sides. With the exception of the aunt,
beside whom sat only one elderly lady, who with her thin careworn face
was rather out of place in this brilliant society, the whole company
had settled into three groups. One, chiefly masculine, had formed
round the abbe. Another, of young people, was grouped round the
beautiful Princess Helene, Prince Vasili's daughter, and the little
Princess Bolkonskaya, very pretty and rosy, though rather too plump
for her age. The third group was gathered round Mortemart and Anna
Pavlovna.

The vicomte was a nice-looking young man with soft features and
polished manners, who evidently considered himself a celebrity but out
of politeness modestly placed himself at the disposal of the circle in
which he found himself. Anna Pavlovna was obviously serving him up
as a treat to her guests. As a clever maitre d'hotel serves up as a
specially choice delicacy a piece of meat that no one who had seen
it in the kitchen would have cared to eat, so Anna Pavlovna served
up to her guests, first the vicomte and then the abbe, as peculiarly
choice morsels. The group about Mortemart immediately began discussing
the murder of the Duc d'Enghien. The vicomte said that the Duc
d'Enghien had perished by his own magnanimity, and that there were
particular reasons for Buonaparte's hatred of him.

"Ah, yes! Do tell us all about it, Vicomte," said Anna Pavlovna,
with a pleasant feeling that there was something a la Louis XV in
the sound of that sentence: "Contez nous cela, Vicomte."

The vicomte bowed and smiled courteously in token of his willingness
to comply. Anna Pavlovna arranged a group round him, inviting everyone
to listen to his tale.

"The vicomte knew the duc personally," whispered Anna Pavlovna to of
the guests. "The vicomte is a wonderful raconteur," said she to
another. "How evidently he belongs to the best society," said she to a
third; and the vicomte was served up to the company in the choicest
and most advantageous style, like a well-garnished joint of roast beef
on a hot dish.

The vicomte wished to begin his story and gave a subtle smile.

"Come over here, Helene, dear," said Anna Pavlovna to the
beautiful young princess who was sitting some way off, the center of
another group.

The princess smiled. She rose with the same unchanging smile with
which she had first entered the room- the smile of a perfectly
beautiful woman. With a slight rustle of her white dress trimmed
with moss and ivy, with a gleam of white shoulders, glossy hair, and
sparkling diamonds, she passed between the men who made way for her,
not looking at any of them but smiling on all, as if graciously
allowing each the privilege of admiring her beautiful figure and
shapely shoulders, back, and bosom- which in the fashion of those days
were very much exposed- and she seemed to bring the glamour of a
ballroom with her as she moved toward Anna Pavlovna. Helene was so
lovely that not only did she not show any trace of coquetry, but on
the contrary she even appeared shy of her unquestionable and all too
victorious beauty. She seemed to wish, but to be unable, to diminish
its effect.

"How lovely!" said everyone who saw her; and the vicomte lifted
his shoulders and dropped his eyes as if startled by something
extraordinary when she took her seat opposite and beamed upon him also
with her unchanging smile.

"Madame, I doubt my ability before such an audience," said he,
smilingly inclining his head.

The princess rested her bare round arm on a little table and
considered a reply unnecessary. She smilingly waited. All the time the
story was being told she sat upright, glancing now at her beautiful
round arm, altered in shape by its pressure on the table, now at her
still more beautiful bosom, on which she readjusted a diamond
necklace. From time to time she smoothed the folds of her dress, and
whenever the story produced an effect she glanced at Anna Pavlovna, at
once adopted just the expression she saw on the maid of honor's
face, and again relapsed into her radiant smile.

The little princess had also left the tea table and followed Helene.

"Wait a moment, I'll get my work.... Now then, what are you thinking
of?" she went on, turning to Prince Hippolyte. "Fetch me my workbag."

There was a general movement as the princess, smiling and talking
merrily to everyone at once, sat down and gaily arranged herself in
her seat.

"Now I am all right," she said, and asking the vicomte to begin, she
took up her work.

Prince Hippolyte, having brought the workbag, joined the circle
and moving a chair close to hers seated himself beside her.

Le charmant Hippolyte was surprising by his extraordinary
resemblance to his beautiful sister, but yet more by the fact that
in spite of this resemblance he was exceedingly ugly. His features
were like his sister's, but while in her case everything was lit up by
a joyous, self-satisfied, youthful, and constant smile of animation,
and by the wonderful classic beauty of her figure, his face on the
contrary was dulled by imbecility and a constant expression of
sullen self-confidence, while his body was thin and weak. His eyes,
nose, and mouth all seemed puckered into a vacant, wearied grimace,
and his arms and legs always fell into unnatural positions.

"It's not going to be a ghost story?" said he, sitting down beside
the princess and hastily adjusting his lorgnette, as if without this
instrument he could not begin to speak.

"Why no, my dear fellow," said the astonished narrator, shrugging
his shoulders.

"Because I hate ghost stories," said Prince Hippolyte in a tone
which showed that he only understood the meaning of his words after he
had uttered them.

He spoke with such self-confidence that his hearers could not be
sure whether what he said was very witty or very stupid. He was
dressed in a dark-green dress coat, knee breeches of the color of
cuisse de nymphe effrayee, as he called it, shoes, and silk stockings.

The vicomte told his tale very neatly. It was an anecdote, then
current, to the effect that the Duc d'Enghien had gone secretly to
Paris to visit Mademoiselle George; that at her house he came upon
Bonaparte, who also enjoyed the famous actress' favors, and that in
his presence Napoleon happened to fall into one of the fainting fits
to which he was subject, and was thus at the duc's mercy. The latter
spared him, and this magnanimity Bonaparte subsequently repaid by
death.

The story was very pretty and interesting, especially at the point
where the rivals suddenly recognized one another; and the ladies
looked agitated.

"Charming!" said Anna Pavlovna with an inquiring glance at the
little princess.

"Charming!" whispered the little princess, sticking the needle
into her work as if to testify that the interest and fascination of
the story prevented her from going on with it.

The vicomte appreciated this silent praise and smiling gratefully
prepared to continue, but just then Anna Pavlovna, who had kept a
watchful eye on the young man who so alarmed her, noticed that he
was talking too loudly and vehemently with the abbe, so she hurried to
the rescue. Pierre had managed to start a conversation with the abbe
about the balance of power, and the latter, evidently interested by
the young man's simple-minded eagerness, was explaining his pet
theory. Both were talking and listening too eagerly and too naturally,
which was why Anna Pavlovna disapproved.

"The means are... the balance of power in Europe and the rights of
the people," the abbe was saying. "It is only necessary for one
powerful nation like Russia- barbaric as she is said to be- to place
herself disinterestedly at the head of an alliance having for its
object the maintenance of the balance of power of Europe, and it would
save the world!"

"But how are you to get that balance?" Pierre was beginning.

At that moment Anna Pavlovna came up and, looking severely at
Pierre, asked the Italian how he stood Russian climate. The
Italian's face instantly changed and assumed an offensively
affected, sugary expression, evidently habitual to him when conversing
with women.

"I am so enchanted by the brilliancy of the wit and culture of the
society, more especially of the feminine society, in which I have
had the honor of being received, that I have not yet had time to think
of the climate," said he.

Not letting the abbe and Pierre escape, Anna Pavlovna, the more
conveniently to keep them under observation, brought them into the
larger circle.





CHAPTER IV


Just then another visitor entered the drawing room: Prince Andrew
Bolkonski, the little princess' husband. He was a very handsome
young man, of medium height, with firm, clearcut features.
Everything about him, from his weary, bored expression to his quiet,
measured step, offered a most striking contrast to his quiet, little
wife. It was evident that he not only knew everyone in the drawing
room, but had found them to be so tiresome that it wearied him to look
at or listen to them. And among all these faces that he found so
tedious, none seemed to bore him so much as that of his pretty wife.
He turned away from her with a grimace that distorted his handsome
face, kissed Anna Pavlovna's hand, and screwing up his eyes scanned
the whole company.

"You are off to the war, Prince?" said Anna Pavlovna.

"General Kutuzov," said Bolkonski, speaking French and stressing the
last syllable of the general's name like a Frenchman, "has been
pleased to take me as an aide-de-camp...."

"And Lise, your wife?"

"She will go to the country."

"Are you not ashamed to deprive us of your charming wife?"

"Andre," said his wife, addressing her husband in the same
coquettish manner in which she spoke to other men, "the vicomte has
been telling us such a tale about Mademoiselle George and Buonaparte!"

Prince Andrew screwed up his eyes and turned away. Pierre, who
from the moment Prince Andrew entered the room had watched him with
glad, affectionate eyes, now came up and took his arm. Before he
looked round Prince Andrew frowned again, expressing his annoyance
with whoever was touching his arm, but when he saw Pierre's beaming
face he gave him an unexpectedly kind and pleasant smile.

"There now!... So you, too, are in the great world?" said he to
Pierre.

"I knew you would be here," replied Pierre. "I will come to supper
with you. May I?" he added in a low voice so as not to disturb the
vicomte who was continuing his story.

"No, impossible!" said Prince Andrew, laughing and pressing Pierre's
hand to show that there was no need to ask the question. He wished
to say something more, but at that moment Prince Vasili and his
daughter got up to go and the two young men rose to let them pass.

"You must excuse me, dear Vicomte," said Prince Vasili to the
Frenchman, holding him down by the sleeve in a friendly way to prevent
his rising. "This unfortunate fete at the ambassador's deprives me
of a pleasure, and obliges me to interrupt you. I am very sorry to
leave your enchanting party," said he, turning to Anna Pavlovna.

His daughter, Princess Helene, passed between the chairs, lightly
holding up the folds of her dress, and the smile shone still more
radiantly on her beautiful face. Pierre gazed at her with rapturous,
almost frightened, eyes as she passed him.

"Very lovely," said Prince Andrew.

"Very," said Pierre.

In passing Prince Vasili seized Pierre's hand and said to Anna
Pavlovna: "Educate this bear for me! He has been staying with me a
whole month and this is the first time I have seen him in society.
Nothing is so necessary for a young man as the society of clever
women."


Anna Pavlovna smiled and promised to take Pierre in hand. She knew
his father to be a connection of Prince Vasili's. The elderly lady who
had been sitting with the old aunt rose hurriedly and overtook
Prince Vasili in the anteroom. All the affectation of interest she had
assumed had left her kindly and tearworn face and it now expressed
only anxiety and fear.

"How about my son Boris, Prince?" said she, hurrying after him
into the anteroom. "I can't remain any longer in Petersburg. Tell me
what news I may take back to my poor boy."

Although Prince Vasili listened reluctantly and not very politely to
the elderly lady, even betraying some impatience, she gave him an
ingratiating and appealing smile, and took his hand that he might
not go away.

"What would it cost you to say a word to the Emperor, and then he
would be transferred to the Guards at once?" said she.

"Believe me, Princess, I am ready to do all I can," answered
Prince Vasili, "but it is difficult for me to ask the Emperor. I
should advise you to appeal to Rumyantsev through Prince Golitsyn.
That would be the best way."

The elderly lady was a Princess Drubetskaya, belonging to one of the
best families in Russia, but she was poor, and having long been out of
society had lost her former influential connections. She had now
come to Petersburg to procure an appointment in the Guards for her
only son. It was, in fact, solely to meet Prince Vasili that she had
obtained an invitation to Anna Pavlovna's reception and had sat
listening to the vicomte's story. Prince Vasili's words frightened
her, an embittered look clouded her once handsome face, but only for a
moment; then she smiled again and dutched Prince Vasili's arm more
tightly.

"Listen to me, Prince," said she. "I have never yet asked you for
anything and I never will again, nor have I ever reminded you of my
father's friendship for you; but now I entreat you for God's sake to
do this for my son- and I shall always regard you as a benefactor,"
she added hurriedly. "No, don't be angry, but promise! I have asked
Golitsyn and he has refused. Be the kindhearted man you always
were," she said, trying to smile though tears were in her eyes.

"Papa, we shall be late," said Princess Helene, turning her
beautiful head and looking over her classically molded shoulder as she
stood waiting by the door.

Influence in society, however, is a capital which has to be
economized if it is to last. Prince Vasili knew this, and having
once realized that if he asked on behalf of all who begged of him,
he would soon be unable to ask for himself, he became chary of using
his influence. But in Princess Drubetskaya's case he felt, after her
second appeal, something like qualms of conscience. She had reminded
him of what was quite true; he had been indebted to her father for the
first steps in his career. Moreover, he could see by her manners
that she was one of those women- mostly mothers- who, having once made
up their minds, will not rest until they have gained their end, and
are prepared if necessary to go on insisting day after day and hour
after hour, and even to make scenes. This last consideration moved
him.

"My dear Anna Mikhaylovna," said he with his usual familiarity and
weariness of tone, "it is almost impossible for me to do what you ask;
but to prove my devotion to you and how I respect your father's
memory, I will do the impossible- your son shall be transferred to the
Guards. Here is my hand on it. Are you satisfied?"

"My dear benefactor! This is what I expected from you- I knew your
kindness!" He turned to go.

"Wait- just a word! When he has been transferred to the Guards..."
she faltered. "You are on good terms with Michael Ilarionovich
Kutuzov... recommend Boris to him as adjutant! Then I shall be at
rest, and then..."

Prince Vasili smiled.

"No, I won't promise that. You don't know how Kutuzov is pestered
since his appointment as Commander in Chief. He told me himself that
all the Moscow ladies have conspired to give him all their sons as
adjutants."

"No, but do promise! I won't let you go! My dear benefactor..."

"Papa," said his beautiful daughter in the same tone as before,
"we shall be late."

"Well, au revoir! Good-by! You hear her?"

"Then tomorrow you will speak to the Emperor?"

"Certainly; but about Kutuzov, I don't promise."

"Do promise, do promise, Vasili!" cried Anna Mikhaylovna as he went,
with the smile of a coquettish girl, which at one time probably came
naturally to her, but was now very ill-suited to her careworn face.

Apparently she had forgotten her age and by force of habit
employed all the old feminine arts. But as soon as the prince had gone
her face resumed its former cold, artificial expression. She
returned to the group where the vicomte was still talking, and again
pretended to listen, while waiting till it would be time to leave. Her
task was accomplished.





CHAPTER V


"And what do you think of this latest comedy, the coronation at
Milan?" asked Anna Pavlovna, "and of the comedy of the people of Genoa
and Lucca laying their petitions before Monsieur Buonaparte, and
Monsieur Buonaparte sitting on a throne and granting the petitions
of the nations? Adorable! It is enough to make one's head whirl! It is
as if the whole world had gone crazy."

Prince Andrew looked Anna Pavlovna straight in the face with a
sarcastic smile.

"'Dieu me la donne, gare a qui la touche!'* They say he was very
fine when he said that," he remarked, repeating the words in
Italian: "'Dio mi l'ha dato. Guai a chi la tocchi!'"


*God has given it to me, let him who touches it beware!


"I hope this will prove the last drop that will make the glass run
over," Anna Pavlovna continued. "The sovereigns will not be able to
endure this man who is a menace to everything."

"The sovereigns? I do not speak of Russia," said the vicomte, polite
but hopeless: "The sovereigns, madame... What have they done for Louis
XVII, for the Queen, or for Madame Elizabeth? Nothing!" and he
became more animated. "And believe me, they are reaping the reward
of their betrayal of the Bourbon cause. The sovereigns! Why, they
are sending ambassadors to compliment the usurper."

And sighing disdainfully, he again changed his position.

Prince Hippolyte, who had been gazing at the vicomte for some time
through his lorgnette, suddenly turned completely round toward the
little princess, and having asked for a needle began tracing the Conde
coat of arms on the table. He explained this to her with as much
gravity as if she had asked him to do it.

"Baton de gueules, engrele de gueules d' azur- maison Conde," said
he.

The princess listened, smiling.

"If Buonaparte remains on the throne of France a year longer," the
vicomte continued, with the air of a man who, in a matter with which
he is better acquainted than anyone else, does not listen to others
but follows the current of his own thoughts, "things will have gone
too far. By intrigues, violence, exile, and executions, French
society- I mean good French society- will have been forever destroyed,
and then..."

He shrugged his shoulders and spread out his hands. Pierre wished to
make a remark, for the conversation interested him, but Anna Pavlovna,
who had him under observation, interrupted:

"The Emperor Alexander," said she, with the melancholy which
always accompanied any reference of hers to the Imperial family,
"has declared that he will leave it to the French people themselves to
choose their own form of government; and I believe that once free from
the usurper, the whole nation will certainly throw itself into the
arms of its rightful king," she concluded, trying to be amiable to the
royalist emigrant.

"That is doubtful," said Prince Andrew. "Monsieur le Vicomte quite
rightly supposes that matters have already gone too far. I think it
will be difficult to return to the old regime."

"From what I have heard," said Pierre, blushing and breaking into
the conversation, "almost all the aristocracy has already gone over to
Bonaparte's side."

"It is the Buonapartists who say that," replied the vicomte
without looking at Pierre. "At the present time it is difficult to
know the real state of French public opinion.

"Bonaparte has said so," remarked Prince Andrew with a sarcastic
smile.

It was evident that he did not like the vicomte and was aiming his
remarks at him, though without looking at him.

"'I showed them the path to glory, but they did not follow it,'"
Prince Andrew continued after a short silence, again quoting
Napoleon's words. "'I opened my antechambers and they crowded in.' I
do not know how far he was justified in saying so."

"Not in the least," replied the vicomte. "After the murder of the
duc even the most partial ceased to regard him as a hero. If to some
people," he went on, turning to Anna Pavlovna, "he ever was a hero,
after the murder of the duc there was one martyr more in heaven and
one hero less on earth."

Before Anna Pavlovna and the others had time to smile their
appreciation of the vicomte's epigram, Pierre again broke into the
conversation, and though Anna Pavlovna felt sure he would say
something inappropriate, she was unable to stop him.

"The execution of the Duc d'Enghien," declared Monsieur Pierre, "was
a political necessity, and it seems to me that Napoleon showed
greatness of soul by not fearing to take on himself the whole
responsibility of that deed."

"Dieu! Mon Dieu!" muttered Anna Pavlovna in a terrified whisper.

"What, Monsieur Pierre... Do you consider that assassination shows
greatness of soul?" said the little princess, smiling and drawing
her work nearer to her.

"Oh! Oh!" exclaimed several voices.

"Capital!" said Prince Hippolyte in English, and began slapping
his knee with the palm of his hand.

The vicomte merely shrugged his shoulders. Pierre looked solemnly at
his audience over his spectacles and continued.

"I say so," he continued desperately, "because the Bourbons fled
from the Revolution leaving the people to anarchy, and Napoleon
alone understood the Revolution and quelled it, and so for the general
good, he could not stop short for the sake of one man's life."

"Won't you come over to the other table?" suggested Anna Pavlovna.

But Pierre continued his speech without heeding her.

"No," cried he, becoming more and more eager, "Napoleon is great
because he rose superior to the Revolution, suppressed its abuses,
preserved all that was good in it- equality of citizenship and freedom
of speech and of the press- and only for that reason did he obtain
power."

"Yes, if having obtained power, without availing himself of it to
commit murder he had restored it to the rightful king, I should have
called him a great man," remarked the vicomte.

"He could not do that. The people only gave him power that he
might rid them of the Bourbons and because they saw that he was a
great man. The Revolution was a grand thing!" continued Monsieur
Pierre, betraying by this desperate and provocative proposition his
extreme youth and his wish to express all that was in his mind.

"What? Revolution and regicide a grand thing?... Well, after that...
But won't you come to this other table?" repeated Anna Pavlovna.

"Rousseau's Contrat social," said the vicomte with a tolerant smile.

"I am not speaking of regicide, I am speaking about ideas."

"Yes: ideas of robbery, murder, and regicide," again interjected
an ironical voice.

"Those were extremes, no doubt, but they are not what is most
important. What is important are the rights of man, emancipation
from prejudices, and equality of citizenship, and all these ideas
Napoleon has retained in full force."

"Liberty and equality," said the vicomte contemptuously, as if at
last deciding seriously to prove to this youth how foolish his words
were, "high-sounding words which have long been discredited. Who
does not love liberty and equality? Even our Saviour preached
liberty and equality. Have people since the Revolution become happier?
On the contrary. We wanted liberty, but Buonaparte has destroyed it."

Prince Andrew kept looking with an amused smile from Pierre to the
vicomte and from the vicomte to their hostess. In the first moment
of Pierre's outburst Anna Pavlovna, despite her social experience, was
horror-struck. But when she saw that Pierre's sacrilegious words had
not exasperated the vicomte, and had convinced herself that it was
impossible to stop him, she rallied her forces and joined the
vicomte in a vigorous attack on the orator.

"But, my dear Monsieur Pierre," said she, "how do you explain the
fact of a great man executing a duc- or even an ordinary man who- is
innocent and untried?"

"I should like," said the vicomte, "to ask how monsieur explains the
18th Brumaire; was not that an imposture? It was a swindle, and not at
all like the conduct of a great man!"

"And the prisoners he killed in Africa? That was horrible!" said the
little princess, shrugging her shoulders.

"He's a low fellow, say what you will," remarked Prince Hippolyte.

Pierre, not knowing whom to answer, looked at them all and smiled.
His smile was unlike the half-smile of other people. When he smiled,
his grave, even rather gloomy, look was instantaneously replaced by
another- a childlike, kindly, even rather silly look, which seemed
to ask forgiveness.

The vicomte who was meeting him for the first time saw clearly
that this young Jacobin was not so terrible as his words suggested.
All were silent.

"How do you expect him to answer you all at once?" said Prince
Andrew. "Besides, in the actions of a statesman one has to distinguish
between his acts as a private person, as a general, and as an emperor.
So it seems to me."

"Yes, yes, of course!" Pierre chimed in, pleased at the arrival of
this reinforcement.

"One must admit," continued Prince Andrew, "that Napoleon as a man
was great on the bridge of Arcola, and in the hospital at Jaffa
where he gave his hand to the plague-stricken; but... but there are
other acts which it is difficult to justify."

Prince Andrew, who had evidently wished to tone down the awkwardness
of Pierre's remarks, rose and made a sign to his wife that it was time
to go.


Suddenly Prince Hippolyte started up making signs to everyone to
attend, and asking them all to be seated began:

"I was told a charming Moscow story today and must treat you to
it. Excuse me, Vicomte- I must tell it in Russian or the point will be
lost...." And Prince Hippolyte began to tell his story in such Russian
as a Frenchman would speak after spending about a year in Russia.
Everyone waited, so emphatically and eagerly did he demand their
attention to his story.

"There is in Moscow a lady, une dame, and she is very stingy. She
must have two footmen behind her carriage, and very big ones. That was
her taste. And she had a lady's maid, also big. She said..."

Here Prince Hippolyte paused, evidently collecting his ideas with
difficulty.

"She said... Oh yes! She said, 'Girl,' to the maid, 'put on a
livery, get up behind the carriage, and come with me while I make some
calls.'"

Here Prince Hippolyte spluttered and burst out laughing long
before his audience, which produced an effect unfavorable to the
narrator. Several persons, among them the elderly lady and Anna
Pavlovna, did however smile.

"She went. Suddenly there was a great wind. The girl lost her hat
and her long hair came down...." Here he could contain himself no
longer and went on, between gasps of laughter: "And the whole world
knew...."

And so the anecdote ended. Though it was unintelligible why he had
told it, or why it had to be told in Russian, still Anna Pavlovna
and the others appreciated Prince Hippolyte's social tact in so
agreeably ending Pierre's unpleasant and unamiable outburst. After the
anecdote the conversation broke up into insignificant small talk about
the last and next balls, about theatricals, and who would meet whom,
and when and where.





CHAPTER VI


Having thanked Anna Pavlovna for her charming soiree, the guests
began to take their leave.

Pierre was ungainly. Stout, about the average height, broad, with
huge red hands; he did not know, as the saying is, to enter a
drawing room and still less how to leave one; that is, how to say
something particularly agreeable before going away. Besides this he
was absent-minded. When he rose to go, he took up instead of his
own, the general's three-cornered hat, and held it, pulling at the
plume, till the general asked him to restore it. All his
absent-mindedness and inability to enter a room and converse in it
was, however, redeemed by his kindly, simple, and modest expression.
Anna Pavlovna turned toward him and, with a Christian mildness that
expressed forgiveness of his indiscretion, nodded and said: "I hope to
see you again, but I also hope you will change your opinions, my
dear Monsieur Pierre."

When she said this, he did not reply and only bowed, but again
everybody saw his smile, which said nothing, unless perhaps, "Opinions
are opinions, but you see what a capital, good-natured fellow I am."
And everyone, including Anna Pavlovna, felt this.

Prince Andrew had gone out into the hall, and, turning his shoulders
to the footman who was helping him on with his cloak, listened
indifferently to his wife's chatter with Prince Hippolyte who had also
come into the hall. Prince Hippolyte stood close to the pretty,
pregnant princess, and stared fixedly at her through his eyeglass.

"Go in, Annette, or you will catch cold," said the little
princess, taking leave of Anna Pavlovna. "It is settled," she added in
a low voice.

Anna Pavlovna had already managed to speak to Lise about the match
she contemplated between Anatole and the little princess'
sister-in-law.

"I rely on you, my dear," said Anna Pavlovna, also in a low tone.
"Write to her and let me know how her father looks at the matter. Au
revoir!"- and she left the hall.

Prince Hippolyte approached the little princess and, bending his
face close to her, began to whisper something.

Two footmen, the princess' and his own, stood holding a shawl and
a cloak, waiting for the conversation to finish. They listened to
the French sentences which to them were meaningless, with an air of
understanding but not wishing to appear to do so. The princess as
usual spoke smilingly and listened with a laugh.

"I am very glad I did not go to the ambassador's," said Prince
Hippolyte "-so dull-. It has been a delightful evening, has it not?
Delightful!"

"They say the ball will be very good," replied the princess, drawing
up her downy little lip. "All the pretty women in society will be
there."

"Not all, for you will not be there; not all," said Prince Hippolyte
smiling joyfully; and snatching the shawl from the footman, whom he
even pushed aside, he began wrapping it round the princess. Either
from awkwardness or intentionally (no one could have said which) after
the shawl had been adjusted he kept his arm around her for a long
time, as though embracing her.

Still smiling, she gracefully moved away, turning and glancing at
her husband. Prince Andrew's eyes were closed, so weary and sleepy did
he seem.

"Are you ready?" he asked his wife, looking past her.

Prince Hippolyte hurriedly put on his cloak, which in the latest
fashion reached to his very heels, and, stumbling in it, ran out
into the porch following the princess, whom a footman was helping into
the carriage.

"Princesse, au revoir," cried he, stumbling with his tongue as
well as with his feet.

The princess, picking up her dress, was taking her seat in the
dark carriage, her husband was adjusting his saber; Prince
Hippolyte, under pretense of helping, was in everyone's way.

"Allow me, sir," said Prince Andrew in Russian in a cold,
disagreeable tone to Prince Hippolyte who was blocking his path.

"I am expecting you, Pierre," said the same voice, but gently and
affectionately.

The postilion started, the carriage wheels rattled. Prince Hippolyte
laughed spasmodically as he stood in the porch waiting for the vicomte
whom he had promised to take home.

"Well, mon cher," said the vicomte, having seated himself beside
Hippolyte in the carriage, "your little princess is very nice, very
nice indeed, quite French," and he kissed the tips of his fingers.
Hippolyte burst out laughing.

"Do you know, you are a terrible chap for all your innocent airs,"
continued the vicomte. "I pity the poor husband, that little officer
who gives himself the airs of a monarch."

Hippolyte spluttered again, and amid his laughter said, "And you
were saying that the Russian ladies are not equal to the French? One
has to know how to deal with them."


Pierre reaching the house first went into Prince Andrew's study like
one quite at home, and from habit immediately lay down on the sofa,
took from the shelf the first book that came to his hand (it was
Caesar's Commentaries), and resting on his elbow, began reading it
in the middle.

"What have you done to Mlle Scherer? She will be quite ill now,"
said Prince Andrew, as he entered the study, rubbing his small white
hands.

Pierre turned his whole body, making the sofa creak. He lifted his
eager face to Prince Andrew, smiled, and waved his hand.

"That abbe is very interesting but he does not see the thing in
the right light.... In my opinion perpetual peace is possible but- I
do not know how to express it... not by a balance of political
power...."

It was evident that Prince Andrew was not interested in such
abstract conversation.

"One can't everywhere say all one thinks, mon cher. Well, have you
at last decided on anything? Are you going to be a guardsman or a
diplomatist?" asked Prince Andrew after a momentary silence.

Pierre sat up on the sofa, with his legs tucked under him.

"Really, I don't yet know. I don't like either the one or the
other."

"But you must decide on something! Your father expects it."

Pierre at the age of ten had been sent abroad with an abbe as tutor,
and had remained away till he was twenty. When he returned to Moscow
his father dismissed the abbe and said to the young man, "Now go to
Petersburg, look round, and choose your profession. I will agree to
anything. Here is a letter to Prince Vasili, and here is money.
Write to me all about it, and I will help you in everything." Pierre
had already been choosing a career for three months, and had not
decided on anything. It was about this choice that Prince Andrew was
speaking. Pierre rubbed his forehead.

"But he must be a Freemason," said he, referring to the abbe whom he
had met that evening.

"That is all nonsense." Prince Andrew again interrupted him, "let us
talk business. Have you been to the Horse Guards?"

"No, I have not; but this is what I have been thinking and wanted to
tell you. There is a war now against Napoleon. If it were a war for
freedom I could understand it and should be the first to enter the
army; but to help England and Austria against the greatest man in
the world is not right."

Prince Andrew only shrugged his shoulders at Pierre's childish
words. He put on the air of one who finds it impossible to reply to
such nonsense, but it would in fact have been difficult to give any
other answer than the one Prince Andrew gave to this naive question.

"If no one fought except on his own conviction, there would be no
wars," he said.

"And that would be splendid," said Pierre.

Prince Andrew smiled ironically.

"Very likely it would be splendid, but it will never come about..."

"Well, why are you going to the war?" asked Pierre.

"What for? I don't know. I must. Besides that I am going..." He
paused. "I am going because the life I am leading here does not suit
me!"





CHAPTER VII


The rustle of a woman's dress was heard in the next room. Prince
Andrew shook himself as if waking up, and his face assumed the look it
had had in Anna Pavlovna's drawing room. Pierre removed his feet
from the sofa. The princess came in. She had changed her gown for a
house dress as fresh and elegant as the other. Prince Andrew rose
and politely placed a chair for her.

"How is it," she began, as usual in French, settling down briskly
and fussily in the easy chair, "how is it Annette never got married?
How stupid you men all are not to have married her! Excuse me for
saying so, but you have no sense about women. What an argumentative
fellow you are, Monsieur Pierre!"

"And I am still arguing with your husband. I can't understand why he
wants to go to the war," replied Pierre, addressing the princess
with none of the embarrassment so commonly shown by young men in their
intercourse with young women.

The princess started. Evidently Pierre's words touched her to the
quick.

"Ah, that is just what I tell him!" said she. "I don't understand
it; I don't in the least understand why men can't live without wars.
How is it that we women don't want anything of the kind, don't need
it? Now you shall judge between us. I always tell him: Here he is
Uncle's aide-de-camp, a most brilliant position. He is so well
known, so much appreciated by everyone. The other day at the
Apraksins' I heard a lady asking, 'Is that the famous Prince
Andrew?' I did indeed." She laughed. "He is so well received
everywhere. He might easily become aide-de-camp to the Emperor. You
know the Emperor spoke to him most graciously. Annette and I were
speaking of how to arrange it. What do you think?"

Pierre looked at his friend and, noticing that he did not like the
conversation, gave no reply.

"When are you starting?" he asked.

"Oh, don't speak of his going, don't! I won't hear it spoken of,"
said the princess in the same petulantly playful tone in which she had
spoken to Hippolyte in the drawing room and which was so plainly
ill-suited to the family circle of which Pierre was almost a member.
"Today when I remembered that all these delightful associations must
be broken off... and then you know, Andre..." (she looked
significantly at her husband) "I'm afraid, I'm afraid!" she whispered,
and a shudder ran down her back.

Her husband looked at her as if surprised to notice that someone
besides Pierre and himself was in the room, and addressed her in a
tone of frigid politeness.

"What is it you are afraid of, Lise? I don't understand," said he.

"There, what egotists men all are: all, all egotists! Just for a
whim of his own, goodness only knows why, he leaves me and locks me up
alone in the country."

"With my father and sister, remember," said Prince Andrew gently.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:50 
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HOWEVER - none of that answers the question about being able to buy things for less than a tenner without any verification whatsoever. This I do not like, as 100 £10 fraudulent transactions would hurt just as much.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:54 
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Craster wrote:
HOWEVER - none of that answers the question about being able to buy things for less than a tenner without any verification whatsoever. This I do not like, as 100 £10 fraudulent transactions would hurt just as much.


I don't know of the exact scheme you're talking about, but if it allows off-line low value transactions with no cardholder verification, then there is a mechanism that forces it to do an online transaction with PIN sooner or later. With some value limit or number of transactions or both.

So your exposure is managed that way, and it's typically set to a low limit. In fact it might well be £10. Does your card allow this?


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 15:58 
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INFINITE POWAH

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You can get the PIN off the card with a paperclip

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 16:01 
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Mr Chris wrote:
[url=http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/27/credit_card_reader_security_pants/]You can get the PIN off the card with a paperclip
[/quote]

No, you can get the PIN out of a hacked pinpad using a paperclip, whilst the customer is typing it in.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 16:02 
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INFINITE POWAH

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kalmar wrote:
Mr Chris wrote:


No, you can get the PIN out of a hacked pinpad using a paperclip, whilst the customer is typing it in. A high-tech way of looking over someone's shoulder.

You still don't have the card.


And this argument could be used in favour of just having a signature on the back. You can't forge the signature and spend money without having the card to look at the signature and copy it from, and then to actually use to buy stuff.

If you have a card with a chip 'n' PIN, you can hack the PIN out with a paperclip and a hacked pinpad at home and then go spend money with your stolen card and hacked PIN.

Exact. Same. Thing.

EDIT - and yes, I know it's not *just* using a paperclip, but it sounds funnier like that.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 16:06 
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Mr Chris wrote:
And this argument could be used in favour of just having a signature on the back. You can't forge the signature and spend money without having the card.

Yes you could, because you could easily print up a fake credit card. This *was* a major form of fraud. You can't do that with a chip card.

Quote:
If you have a card with a chip 'n' PIN, you can hack the PIN out with a paperclip and a hacked pinpad at home and then go spend money.


You *can't* hack the PIN out of the card. You can only get the PIN when someone who knows the PIN obligingly types it in on your hacked pinpad.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 16:06 
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kalmar wrote:
Does your card allow this?


Everyone's does - this is my point. Without even letting anyone know, all visa and mastercards (and their associated debit cards) now allow this.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 16:09 
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kalmar wrote:
Mr Chris wrote:
If you have a card with a chip 'n' PIN, you can hack the PIN out with a paperclip and a hacked pinpad at home and then go spend money.

You *can't* hack the PIN out. You can only get the PIN when someone who knows the PIN obligingly types it in on your hacked pinpad.


True. My fault for not reading the article all the way through whilst on a boring call with a client (I'm very naughty).

However, from that article:

Quote:
Hackers tapping into the link between a card and the processing device could get all the data needed to make a cloned card. Add in the corresponding PIN, and fraudsters could withdraw cash at the many ATMs overseas not upgraded to read chips and therefore solely reliant on easily-fakeable magnetic stripes.


Which isn't quite as bad, but still pretty bad.

And come on, it's only a matter of time before someone works out a way to get the PIN off the chip. You can't seriously think that the only 100% secure storage facility in the world ever is on a credit card?

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 16:12 
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Isn't that lovely?

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Mr Chris wrote:


You do need someone to ener the correct pin for that to work tho

Malc

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 16:14 
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Mr Chris wrote:
Quote:
Hackers tapping into the link between a card and the processing device could get all the data needed to make a cloned card. Add in the corresponding PIN, and fraudsters could withdraw cash at the many ATMs overseas not upgraded to read chips and therefore solely reliant on easily-fakeable magnetic stripes.


Which isn't quite as bad, but still pretty bad.


It's a risk, but a fairly small one (and it the bank's problem). If it was significant, they'd change up (i.e., use encrypted PIN). Just like they changed up from magstripe and signature when cloning became too expensive. Or stop accepting magstripe transactions from foreign ATMs, whatever.


Quote:
And come on, it's only a matter of time before someone works out a way to get the PIN off the chip. You can't seriously think that the only 100% secure storage facility in the world ever is on a credit card?


Nobody ever claimed it's 100% secure forever. But it's secure enough to make it too expensive to bother, just like anything else. The encryption will be upgraded, and keylengths increased every time it starts to look easy.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 16:16 
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Craster wrote:
kalmar wrote:
Does your card allow this?


Everyone's does - this is my point. Without even letting anyone know, all visa and mastercards (and their associated debit cards) now allow this.


Really? Mine still asked for a PIN yesterday, I think the value was £2 or something. Anyone else noticed it yet?


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 16:24 
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kalmar wrote:
Craster wrote:
kalmar wrote:
Does your card allow this?


Everyone's does - this is my point. Without even letting anyone know, all visa and mastercards (and their associated debit cards) now allow this.


Really? Mine still asked for a PIN yesterday, I think the value was £2 or something. Anyone else noticed it yet?


It's at the discretion of the vendor. Try it at an Itsu.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 18:01 
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Craster wrote:
HOWEVER - none of that answers the question about being able to buy things for less than a tenner without any verification whatsoever. This I do not like, as 100 £10 fraudulent transactions would hurt just as much.

Or up to £60 (at Tescos in my area) at a Pay-at-the-pump petrol station.

Not so useful if you don't want petrol, or are using your own car.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 18:06 

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£60 of course won't cover most cars these days.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 18:07 
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BikNorton wrote:
Craster wrote:
HOWEVER - none of that answers the question about being able to buy things for less than a tenner without any verification whatsoever. This I do not like, as 100 £10 fraudulent transactions would hurt just as much.

Or up to £60 (at Tescos in my area) at a Pay-at-the-pump petrol station.


I think they need to have case-by-case approval for things like that. On the tesco forecourt, for example, there's probably also video cameras recording number plates. So I guess this mitigates the concerns about fraud.

Itsu? I dunno, what is that?


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 18:14 
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kalmar wrote:
Itsu? I dunno, what is that?


A sushi restaurant.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 18:28 
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baron of techno

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Craster wrote:
kalmar wrote:
Itsu? I dunno, what is that?


A sushi restaurant.


More detail needed plskthx.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 19:42 
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kalmar wrote:
I think they need to have case-by-case approval for things like that. On the tesco forecourt, for example, there's probably also video cameras recording number plates. So I guess this mitigates the concerns about fraud.
Mm, hence the "your own car" thing. Not that you'd worry about 'paying' if you were filling up a stolen car on your way to an armed robbery. I, er, imagine.

Also, to whoever it was saying that they won't have loyalty cards because it allows movement and habit tracking; do you use credit and/or debit cards to pay for things?

Loyalty cards just allow them to tie multiple people and cards together, building on what they already do with the payment cards. Even further, in the case of the Tesco Clubcard credit card (and the like), between *shops* (sort of).

So Tesco love my girlfriend and I, with our shared credit card that we use for just about everything. But then, we now have more than a grand to spend on flights, car hire and a villa in October-ish (about £250 of vouchers, times-4'd on Clubcard deals).


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 19:46 
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kalmar wrote:
More detail needed plskthx.


Erm. A chain of sushi restaurants?

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 23:41 
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Craster wrote:
It's at the discretion of the vendor.
With all these no-verification systems, like the small payments ones and the Tesco pay-at-pump ones, the retailer is eating the liability. If a stolen card is used, the bank will claw back the payment and the retailer will be left out of pocket. They gamble that this won't happen often enough to cost them more money than the system makes for them in terms of faster customer flow through the facilities etc.

I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the man-in-the-middle Chip and pin hack yet. Admittedly the hack in question is unwieldy, but on the other hand it was knocked up in a couple of months by some computer science postdocs at Cambridge Uni using stuff they bought on Ebay. Clearly there is a risk here. The real danger, though, is that if it is ever genuinely compromised in the field customers will have a very hard time convincing banks that they should get the money back because all the frontline support will believe it is impregnable. This concerns me as a consumer because, as Mr Chris has stated elsewhere, the chip and pin scheme clearly puts the onus of proof onto the consumer, and how in the hell are you supposed to prove what has happend?

It's the same thing with DNA tests, which have quite significant false-positive odds of around 1:10,000 i.e. if you find blood at a murder scene, in a typical city, there could be a dozen people that will match for that blood. Jurys tend to get blinded by the science and just accept DNA evidence as infalliable.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:18 
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If the banks really wanted to help you combat fraud, they'd let you have a longer PIN - most newer cards can hold a 10 digit number.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:26 
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richardgaywood wrote:
The real danger, though, is that if it is ever genuinely compromised in the field customers will have a very hard time convincing banks that they should get the money back because all the frontline support will believe it is impregnable.


There you go: a valid concern. I agree.

Quote:
If the banks really wanted to help you combat fraud, they'd let you have a longer PIN - most newer cards can hold a 10 digit number.


Yes, they can do longer PINs, and I'm sure that if the banks thought that would help reduce fraud, they'd increase it. However, it's not at all clear that it would help, because there are no attacks based on guessing the PIN by trying all of them.
The only time it might help is where someone shoulder-surfs you and then mugs you to get the card, then it's easier for them to see and remember the number in that case. But cases like that are extremely rare in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:33 
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kalmar wrote:
richardgaywood wrote:
The real danger, though, is that if it is ever genuinely compromised in the field customers will have a very hard time convincing banks that they should get the money back because all the frontline support will believe it is impregnable.
There you go: a valid concern. I agree.
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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:33 
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Dudley wrote:
£60 of course won't cover most cars these days.


Sheesh. I still come in under £60 filling a land rover to the brim with diesel (that stuff that costs more than petrol). My Fiat takes a little over half that. What is everyone driving these days? Endurance rally/raid landcruisers?

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:37 
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AceAceBaby wrote:
Dudley wrote:
£60 of course won't cover most cars these days.


Sheesh. I still come in under £60 filling a land rover to the brim with diesel (that stuff that costs more than petrol). My Fiat takes a little over half that. What is everyone driving these days? Endurance rally/raid landcruisers?


£55 for a full tank for a BMW.

Petrol's at between 107p and 110p around here (Gloucestershire and South Gloucestershire)

It seems like only a few months ago that it was below 95p a litre, and only a year or two ago that it was 70p a litre. I'll have to dig around for a pricing graph to see how much it's gone up, but I'm pretty sure most of the increases have happned in the last couple of years.

Any idea how much of the increase is due to tax and how much is due to the silly Middle East?

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 Post subject: Re: 'Loyalty' cards, "How do I 'be' MATALAN?", and Chip & Pin
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:38 
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The thinking is probably that longer pins are harder to remember and are more likely to be written down or be something obvious ( 1234567890 or something ) than 4 digit ones.


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