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 Post subject: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:23 
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Gogmagog

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Current scores on teh doors are unsure but it is deffo most interesting to read the differing viewpoints from various sources about what to do when CountryA gets fucked off royally with Country B lobbing rockets at it.

It's also worth noting that, the IDF is primarily a conscript army, of teenagers, who probably really don't want to be going around doing that sort of stuff.

The only real winner here will be America with it's arms manufacturers entering israel as 'aid' and I cn't see good ol' Barrack risking the jewish goodwill by saying 'Stop this'.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:25 
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A large part of me has a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians, given the sheer scale of the Israeli retributionary attacks. The other part of me is asking Hamas exactly what the fuck they thought was going to happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:26 
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George W Bush landed on the Gaza Strip earlier today to try to broker a peace deal. Things are working well already, with the Palestinians saying they worship the ground he walks on.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:26 
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I'm not touching this one, too much history and too many cunts who just seem to like fighting and that.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:30 
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baron of techno

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What is the history, exactly?

I might go and read wikipedia for a bit but I'm sure someone here can sum up the whole thing concisely in a few sentences and save me the bother.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:33 
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Gogmagog

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kalmar wrote:
What is the history, exactly?

I might go and read wikipedia for a bit but I'm sure someone here can sum up the whole thing concisely in a few sentences and save me the bother.



God, unwisely, say some, has a chosen people what live in Israel, a state made up by drawing lines on a map some time ago last century. The people that did live there got uppity over it. God lets them fight it out.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:37 

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Israel stole the land on the basis someone they knew had it 2000 years previously.

Or to put it another way, this was all Palestine, thanks to the brits the US cut it in two largely without regard for where the people actually were in 1947 and said "North - Jew, South - Arab". The North part then almost immediately declared independence and started invading the rest, including Gaza in 1967.

I'm also getting a touch annoyed at the BBC ignoring the small point that Hamas is the elected government and continually simply calling them terrorists. The US/UK always want "Democracy, so long as you elect our guy".

There's also the question of proportion, regardless of your views on either side, to respond to a couple of near impotent rockets with the full force of a modern western military is frighting, especially when you lie about civilian targeting, lie about the condition of the place and ban any journalist from going to see for themselves.

So far the Israelis have killed more Israeli soldiers than the Palestinians have, mainly because it's a couple of AK-47s and a bottle rocket against F16s, Bombers and large tanks. It's very,very hard to find sympathy for Israel.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:38 
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kalmar wrote:
What is the history, exactly?

1948: Jews manage to pinch the majority of Palestine out from under the Palestinians. Party due to mass Jewish immigration of the time, and also due to the better organisation and funding of the Jews c/o rich Jewish folk in the USA. Officially the country was due to be partitioned into seperate Jewish and Palestinian states, but before the plan could go ahead, a war broke out which the Jews won comfortable, and thereafter founded Israel.

1956: Israel attacked by surrounding Arab states. Fails.

1967: 8 surrounding Arab states perpare to attack Israel. Israel launches pre-emptive stike and owns hard. War over in 6 days.

1973: Same deal, except this time they tried to attack Israel on their religious holiday. Big mistake. Israel owns.

1982~ish: Partial invasion of Lebannon, mostly to stop pesky terrorist attacks from over the border.

There's more to it than that, but suffice to say that the remaining Palestinians were shuttled into settlements in the Gaza strip and West Bank, where they remain to this day in generally shitty and squalid conditions. Every now and then Israel tires of the piecemeal terrorist efforts of Hamas and go, and charge in hard to put it down. Strangely this has been happening on and off for the last 20 years and the palestinians really aren't getting the message.

That's about it, from memory. There might be some inaccuracies.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:40 
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INFINITE POWAH

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Craster wrote:
A large part of me has a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians, given the sheer scale of the Israeli retributionary attacks.


Well, quite. Me too. Saw footage of several dead children and their parents on Channel 4 last night. Are these the Hamas fighters Israel claims they're klling, while doing their "utmost" to avoid civiilian casualties? .

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The other part of me is asking Hamas exactly what the fuck they thought was going to happen.


Well, indeed, but while I understand that Israel will want to prevent rocket attacks that kill its civilians, there must surely have been a way of doing it that didn't involve killing hundreds of innocent civilians, and doubtless creating many more radicalised Palestinians as a result. As Mrs Chris said on seeing those poor dead children last night, if those had been her kids she'd have picked up a gun there and then and killed the nearest Israeli she could find.

In fact, as a civilised democracy, contrasted with the "terrorist Hamas" which is setting out to kill civilians, Israel has a responsibility to pursue its aims in a civilised fashion that complies not only with the Geneva conventions but also basic human morality.

In any event, Israel's actions here will just cause further attacks on Israelis, and the cycle will begin again, as it has many times before, with either side using the actions of the other to justfy further attacks.

If Israel wants to solve the Palestinian Question solely through force (which appears to be the case), they'll only manage it when they kill every last Palestinian within Israel's borders. Of course the cynic in me says that would leave Israel without a playground for their military to test their weapons, but there we are.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:41 
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Dudley wrote:
So far the Israelis have killed more Israeli soldiers than the Palestinians have, mainly because it's a couple of AK-47s and a bottle rocket against F16s, Bombers and large tanks. It's very,very hard to find sympathy for Israel.


This is largely my view. On the other hand, your west bank palestinians, whatever you choose to call them, do appear to be repeatedly poking a large hornets nest with a stick and then complaining about it.

@CG: impressive history skillz dude.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:43 
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ComicalGerald wrote:
Every now and then Israel tires of the piecemeal terrorist efforts of Hamas and go, and charge in hard to put it down. Strangely this has been happening on and off for the last 20 years and the palestinians really aren't getting the message.


Of course by "the Palestinians" here we mean "a terrorist group called Hamas, comprising a tiny minority of the population". Whereas by "Israel" we mean "a democratically elected government of a state which has been elected by a majority of the population".

This historical view is confused by Hamas actually getting voted in by the Palestinians recently, of course. :) But having said that, they're still labelled as a "terrorist group" by the West, so one would expect them to act like terrorists - it's hardly an excuse for Israel to stoop to their level.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:45 
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Mr Chris wrote:
ComicalGerald wrote:
Every now and then Israel tires of the piecemeal terrorist efforts of Hamas and go, and charge in hard to put it down. Strangely this has been happening on and off for the last 20 years and the palestinians really aren't getting the message.


Of course by "the Palestinians" here we mean "a terrorist group called Hamas, comprising a tiny minority of the population". Whereas by "Israel" we mean "aq democratically elected government of a state which has been elected by a majority of the population".

Well, like Dudley mentioned above, Hamas have been elected, and are effectively declaring war on Israel by firing rockets at them. They have an equal responsibility to protect their civs, and firing rockets at a much more powerful country really isn't the way to do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:48 
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ComicalGerald wrote:
Mr Chris wrote:
ComicalGerald wrote:
Every now and then Israel tires of the piecemeal terrorist efforts of Hamas and go, and charge in hard to put it down. Strangely this has been happening on and off for the last 20 years and the palestinians really aren't getting the message.


Of course by "the Palestinians" here we mean "a terrorist group called Hamas, comprising a tiny minority of the population". Whereas by "Israel" we mean "aq democratically elected government of a state which has been elected by a majority of the population".

Well, like Dudley mentioned above, Hamas have been elected, and are effectively declaring war on Israel by firing rockets at them. They have an equal responsibility to protect their civs, and firing rockets at a much more powerful country really isn't the way to do it.

Yeah, see edit above. I just realised that... :)

But still, they're not recognised as a government by anyone in the West or Israel, so hey ho.

And in any event, are these individuals being ordered to fire rockets by the electees, or are these twits with their little fireworks doing it off their own bat to stick it to whitey?


Either way, I'd expect Israel, especially given its history, to act a little more humanely.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:49 
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The other Arab states aren't innocent here. Egypt took over the Gaza strip in 1948, and Jordan did the same with the West Bank. Neither of them allowed a Palestine state to exist. They certainly bare some of the blame for the current state of affairs.

Also, aren't Hamas thought to be funded largely by Iran? Iran probably don't want peace - they're happy to attack the Israelis by proxy, I'm sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:50 
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Gogmagog

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Mr Chris wrote:
ComicalGerald wrote:
Mr Chris wrote:
ComicalGerald wrote:
Every now and then Israel tires of the piecemeal terrorist efforts of Hamas and go, and charge in hard to put it down. Strangely this has been happening on and off for the last 20 years and the palestinians really aren't getting the message.


Of course by "the Palestinians" here we mean "a terrorist group called Hamas, comprising a tiny minority of the population". Whereas by "Israel" we mean "aq democratically elected government of a state which has been elected by a majority of the population".

Well, like Dudley mentioned above, Hamas have been elected, and are effectively declaring war on Israel by firing rockets at them. They have an equal responsibility to protect their civs, and firing rockets at a much more powerful country really isn't the way to do it.

Yeah, see edit above. I just realised that... :)

But still, they're not recognised as a government by anyone in the West or Israel, so hey ho.

And in any event, are these individuals being ordered to fire rockets by the electees, or are these twits with their little fireworks doing it off their own bat to stick it to whitey?


Pschologically speaking, it's a fucking sight and a half easier to light the blue touch paper and watch a rocket disappear into the sky and not see it land 15 miles away than it is to start shooting at people, though. So probably the latter.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:51 
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Squirt wrote:
The other Arab states aren't innocent here. Egypt took over the Gaza strip in 1948, and Jordan did the same with the West Bank. Neither of them allowed a Palestine state to exist. They certainly bare some of the blame for the current state of affairs.


Very true. Most of them seem to want the Palestinians to remain diposessed - and it's not like any of them are offering to let the Palestinans all move to their countries. Concern for their fellow Arabs, there, eh?

Quote:
Also, aren't Hamas thought to be funded largely by Iran? Iran probably don't want peace - they're happy to attack the Israelis by proxy, I'm sure.

They're doing a shit job of it, then. Less than 10 deaths from these rockets in a decade.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:51 
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So they're not recognised by the West or Israel as a government - whyfore? Did they rig the vote?

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:52 
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Gogmagog

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Mr Chris wrote:
Squirt wrote:
The other Arab states aren't innocent here. Egypt took over the Gaza strip in 1948, and Jordan did the same with the West Bank. Neither of them allowed a Palestine state to exist. They certainly bare some of the blame for the current state of affairs.


Very true. Most of them seem to want the Palestinians to remain diposessed - and it's not like any of them are offering to let the Palestinans all move to their countries. Concern for their fellow Arabs, there, eh?



most of that region is split up into different races, though? If races isn't the right word, I dunno, but you get my drift.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:53 
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myp wrote:
So they're not recognised by the West or Israel as a government - whyfore? Did they rig the vote?

They're a proscribed terrorist organisation, due to their longstanding history of organising stone-throwing parties in front of Israeli tanks. Unlike the terrorists who founded Israel, they're not allowed to form a government.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:53 
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MaliA wrote:
most of that region is split up into different races, though? If races isn't the right word, I dunno, but you get my drift.

Ethinicities may be the word you're groping for, there. But yes, I'm sure it is. And religions (especially Lebanon).

But still, the Palestinians are always "brother Arabs" when the rest of the Middle East wants to try and give Israel a hard time.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:54 
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So a proscribed terrorist organisation were the populist vote during the elections. That says a lot, doesn't it?

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:54 
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baron of techno

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MaliA wrote:
Quote:
or are these twits with their little fireworks doing it off their own bat to stick it to whitey?


Pschologically speaking, it's a fucking sight and a half easier to light the blue touch paper and watch a rocket disappear into the sky and not see it land 15 miles away than it is to start shooting at people, though. So probably the latter.


Where does suicide bombing come on the scale of ease of deployment though?

In fact I wonder if the giant concrete wall which handily prevents other types of attack means rockets are the only thing which works for them..


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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:55 
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myp wrote:
So a proscribed terrorist organisation were the populist vote during the elections. That says a lot, doesn't it?

The important thing there is who they're proscribed *by*, of course. One man's terrorist etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:55 
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myp wrote:
So a proscribed terrorist organisation were the populist vote during the elections. That says a lot, doesn't it?


Well, the late Mr Hussein was voted in with 99% of the vote in Iraq's pre war elections.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:56 
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Can someone please explain to me why the stupid fucking protest mob have geared up and are protesting in Downing street and Manchester?

Like most fucking protests, just what the fuck do they think it's going to accomplish particularly when its not even THIS country who are committing, or even supporting the attacks. Wouldn't it be more effective to, y'know, PROTEST IN ISRAEL?

Fucking self-righteous protesters, saiting their conscience while being entirely ineffective. Try doing something that works for a change, cunts.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:57 
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ComicalGerald wrote:
Can someone please explain to me why the stupid fucking protest mob have geared up and are protesting in Downing street and Manchester?

Like most fucking protests, just what the fuck do they think it's going to accomplish particularly when its not even THIS country who are committing, or even supporting the attacks. Wouldn't it be more effective to, y'know, PROTEST IN ISRAEL?

Fucking self-righteous protesters, saiting their conscience while being entirely ineffective. Try doing something that works for a change, cunts.

They're possibly protesting so that our government does something about it. And if they protested in Israel they'd probably be shot.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:58 
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ComicalGerald wrote:
Can someone please explain to me why the stupid fucking protest mob have geared up and are protesting in Downing street and Manchester?

Like most fucking protests, just what the fuck do they think it's going to accomplish particularly when its not even THIS country who are committing, or even supporting the attacks. Wouldn't it be more effective to, y'know, PROTEST IN ISRAEL?

Fucking self-righteous protesters, saiting their conscience while being entirely ineffective. Try doing something that works for a change, cunts.



The scene: Israels highest government offices

Israeli PM: Oh, no! The bourgeois in the UK are outraged. We must stop this immediately or face letters!"

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:58 
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MaliA wrote:
myp wrote:
So a proscribed terrorist organisation were the populist vote during the elections. That says a lot, doesn't it?


Well, the late Mr Hussein was voted in with 99% of the vote in Iraq's pre war elections.


True, but the Palestinian elections were far more democratic. Hamas took power in Gaza, Fatah kept control of the West Bank with a reduced mandate due to widespread dissatisfaction with corruption by Arafat.

Of course, once it was clear that their guy wasn't going to win, the US refused to recognise Hamas as a democratically elected organisation.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:58 
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Plus don't we support Israel, in a roundabout fashion?

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:00 
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myp wrote:
Plus don't we support Israel, in a roundabout fashion?


Only in its right to exist. I don't think we supply them with arms - the US have that all sewn up.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:00 
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Mr Chris wrote:
myp wrote:
So they're not recognised by the West or Israel as a government - whyfore? Did they rig the vote?

They're a proscribed terrorist organisation, due to their longstanding history of organising stone-throwing parties in front of Israeli tanks. Unlike the terrorists who founded Israel, they're not allowed to form a government.

Bah, I don't agree to this. All countries at once time or another created their borders by overpowering the natives. Just because it's happened in recent historical memory doesn't make Israel any less of a legitimate country.

If Hamas concentrated more on internal issues, like sanitation, education, healthcare, etc. instead of popping rockets at a country who could STOMP THEM ALL DEAD, then maybe they'd all be having a better time of it.

Quote:
They're possibly protesting so that our government does something about it. And if they protested in Israel they'd probably be shot.


Ha, and what do they expect the UK government can do? All they can do is what they've already done, urge an end to the attacks and grumble about an impending humanitarian crisis. It's generally all you can expect of a country that's thousand(s) of miles away from the other.

Protesters not willing to get shot = wimps :)

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:02 
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Plissken wrote:
myp wrote:
Plus don't we support Israel, in a roundabout fashion?


Only in its right to exist. I don't think we supply them with arms - the US have that all sewn up.


Well yes, but we support the US. That's what I meant by 'roundabout fashion'.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:03 
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Remember this "form of protest" from a while back?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/may/3 ... ion.israel

I'm afraid I didn't really agree with that one, although I could see the point.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:04 
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ComicalGerald wrote:
Mr Chris wrote:
myp wrote:
So they're not recognised by the West or Israel as a government - whyfore? Did they rig the vote?

They're a proscribed terrorist organisation, due to their longstanding history of organising stone-throwing parties in front of Israeli tanks. Unlike the terrorists who founded Israel, they're not allowed to form a government.

Bah, I don't agree to this. All countries at once time or another created their borders by overpowering the natives. Just because it's happened in recent historical memory doesn't make Israel any less of a legitimate country.


I meant more that a number of the founding fathers of Israel committed terrorist acts against *us* (including bombing a hotel) in order to get their own way, but no one ever refers to them as terrorists. Whereas Hamas, who have done much the same, are evils.

Quote:
If Hamas concentrated more on internal issues, like sanitation, education, healthcare, etc. instead of popping rockets at a country who could STOMP THEM ALL DEAD, then maybe they'd all be having a better time of it.


P'raps, but Israel aren't helping what with all of the restrictions on what can go in and out of Palestinian territory, the security walls, the annexation of the good bits of the land, restictions on work permits etc.

Hamas could do all you say, but the Palestinians would still be being treated like shit - just as they were *before* Hamas got voted in.


Quote:
Quote:
They're possibly protesting so that our government does something about it. And if they protested in Israel they'd probably be shot.


Ha, and what do they expect the UK government can do? All they can do is what they've already done, urge an end to the attacks and grumble about an impending humanitarian crisis. It's generally all you can expect of a country that's thousand(s) of miles away from the other.


True, but I'm not going to sneer about people who care about their friends, relatives and fellow humans being slaughtered.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:04 
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kalmar wrote:
Remember this "form of protest" from a while back?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/may/3 ... ion.israel

I'm afraid I didn't really agree with that one, although I could see the point.


That was a fucking stupid idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:06 
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ComicalGerald wrote:
If Hamas concentrated more on internal issues, like sanitation, education, healthcare, etc. instead of popping rockets at a country who could STOMP THEM ALL DEAD, then maybe they'd all be having a better time of it.


The problem is that Israel keeps blowing it all up.

Before Hamas got elected, Fatah showed signs of getting organised. By that I mean sanitation, power, a coherent police force that was actually beginning to control the Palestinian radicals, so on and so forth.

Israel realised they couldn't let that happen and used a bit of stone throwing as an excuse to launch air strikes against the police HQ and a power station.

Having been elected on a strong defence of Israel ticket, the Israeli Government need Hamas popping rockets at them.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:08 
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Mr Chris wrote:

Quote:
If Hamas concentrated more on internal issues, like sanitation, education, healthcare, etc. instead of popping rockets at a country who could STOMP THEM ALL DEAD, then maybe they'd all be having a better time of it.


P'raps, but Israel aren't helping what with all of the restrictions on what can go in and out of Palestinian territory, the security walls, the annexation of the good bits of the land, restictions on work permits etc.

Hamas could do all you say, but the Palestinians would still be being treated like shit - just as they were *before* Hamas got voted in.


Hmm, the "illegal settlements" thing is also a bit of a giveaway that Israel essentially just fancies that bit of territory for itself. Lebensraum or whatever.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:09 
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kalmar wrote:
Hmm, the "illegal settlements" thing is also a bit of a giveaway that Israel essentially just fancies that bit of territory for itself. Lebensraum or whatever.

Or "facts on the ground" as they like to call them - hence the rush to get shit loads more set up before the wall went up around the West Bank.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:11 
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Quote:
P'raps, but Israel aren't helping what with all of the restrictions on what can go in and out of Palestinian territory, the security walls, the annexation of the good bits of the land, restictions on work permits etc.

Hamas could do all you say, but the Palestinians would still be being treated like shit - just as they were *before* Hamas got voted in.


We're setting up a circular argument here. I'd contend the restrictions wouldn't be so strict were it not for the fear that unrestricted trade and entry would merely lead to better, more effective rockets being shot into Israel.

Quote:
True, but I'm not going to sneer about people who care about their friends, relatives and fellow humans being slaughtered.

Fair comment, but I'm talking about efficacy. It's an impotent waste of time to protest in the currently observed manner, because it is not in the least bit effective. I'd totally support them if they were doing something that actually worked, because then it'd be a worthwhile effort.

A lot of people 'object' based on a minimal comprehension of the facts. For a lot of them they'll have been caught by the 'CHILDREN DYING IN WEST BANK' headline and will rush with placards to the street where they'll start shouting 'NO MORE DEAD CHILDREN' without a thought about actually why the fuck it's all started in the first place. There are too many mindless kneejerkers like that for me to have much respect for the mass protest.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:13 
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CG, it seems that I always end up agreeing with your underlying points, but baulk at the crass way you try to get them across. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:15 
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ComicalGerald wrote:
Quote:
P'raps, but Israel aren't helping what with all of the restrictions on what can go in and out of Palestinian territory, the security walls, the annexation of the good bits of the land, restictions on work permits etc.

Hamas could do all you say, but the Palestinians would still be being treated like shit - just as they were *before* Hamas got voted in.


We're setting up a circular argument here. I'd contend the restrictions wouldn't be so strict were it not for the fear that unrestricted trade and entry would merely lead to better, more effective rockets being shot into Israel.


Not really, as those restrictions were put in place a while ago. And the "security" wall, for instance, was never justified due to rocket attacks (as that wouldn't have made any sense). I'd contend the Israelis would be treating the Palestinians like shit regardless of the rocket attacks. They've used stone throwing at their tanks as pretexts before.

Bottom line is the Israelis want to keep that land, and will do anything they can to make sure they do.

For instance, they've outright rejected the idea of having a single state of Israel with all the Palestinians as Israeli citizens - the reason being that they'd outnumber the Jews and it wouldn't be a "jewish state" any more.

Quote:
Quote:
True, but I'm not going to sneer about people who care about their friends, relatives and fellow humans being slaughtered.

Fair comment, but I'm talking about efficacy. It's an impotent waste of time to protest in the currently observed manner, because it is not in the least bit effective. I'd totally support them if they were doing something that actually worked, because then it'd be a worthwhile effort.


In which case no one would ever protest anything, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:16 
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myp wrote:
CG, it seems that I always end up agreeing with your underlying points, but baulk at the crass way you try to get them across. ;)

You know, I almost agree with you too. If I had more patience I could lay out a nice and pleasant argument that gets the same points across in a less hostile manner, but fuck it, this way is faster ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:20 
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ComicalGerald wrote:
Fair comment, but I'm talking about efficacy. It's an impotent waste of time to protest in the currently observed manner, because it is not in the least bit effective. I'd totally support them if they were doing something that actually worked, because then it'd be a worthwhile effort.


Indeed, they should be posting angrily on a web blog or some such :)


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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:22 
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kalmar wrote:
Indeed, they should be posting angrily on a web blog or some such :)


Oh no you didn't!

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:22 
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Mr Chris wrote:

Not really, as those restrictions were put in place a while ago. And the "security" wall, for instance, was never justified due to rocket attacks (as that wouldn't have made any sense). I'd contend the Israelis would be treating the Palestinians like shit regardless of the rocket attacks. They've used stone throwing at their tanks as pretexts before.

Bottom line is the Israelis want to keep that land, and will do anything they can to make sure they do.

For instance, they've outright rejected the idea of having a single state of Israel with all the Palestinians as Israeli citizens - the reason being that they'd outnumber the Jews and it wouldn't be a "jewish state" any more.


Well, it's a complicated situation. If Israel really were just treating the Palestinians like shit, and for no good reason, Hamas & co would at least hold the moral high ground and could appeal to the international community for aid and a decent state of human rights. But since they persist in this tit for tat pew-pew, it completely undermines any valid objection they could have. Israel justify it as legitimate defense.

Also, y'know, if Israel really just wanted 'the land', they could have mowed them all down and out of the way at any time in the last 50 years.

Quote:
In which case no one would ever protest anything, though.

If protesting is so terribly ineffective, they probably shouldn't. Shouting in the street for a few hours with loads of other misdirected people isn't the way to go. Get some cash together and lobby the policymakers directly and intelligently, would be a better bet at least.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:26 
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ComicalGerald wrote:
Mr Chris wrote:

Not really, as those restrictions were put in place a while ago. And the "security" wall, for instance, was never justified due to rocket attacks (as that wouldn't have made any sense). I'd contend the Israelis would be treating the Palestinians like shit regardless of the rocket attacks. They've used stone throwing at their tanks as pretexts before.

Bottom line is the Israelis want to keep that land, and will do anything they can to make sure they do.

For instance, they've outright rejected the idea of having a single state of Israel with all the Palestinians as Israeli citizens - the reason being that they'd outnumber the Jews and it wouldn't be a "jewish state" any more.


Well, it's a complicated situation. If Israel really were just treating the Palestinians like shit, and for no good reason, Hamas & co would at least hold the moral high ground and could appeal to the international community for aid and a decent state of human rights. But since they persist in this tit for tat pew-pew, it completely undermines any valid objection they could have. Israel justify it as legitimate defense.


Really? A comparative handful of deaths caused by Hamas justifies all that, and all those Palestinian corpses?

Quote:
Also, y'know, if Israel really just wanted 'the land', they could have mowed them all down and out of the way at any time in the last 50 years.


That would be a step too far for them, I think, and couldn't be justified even using the tortured logic of the Middle East.

But they clearly *do* want the land, otherwise there wouldn't be so many illegal settlements on West Bank land.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:28 
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ComicalGerald wrote:
Well, it's a complicated situation. If Israel really were just treating the Palestinians like shit, and for no good reason, Hamas & co would at least hold the moral high ground and could appeal to the international community for aid and a decent state of human rights. But since they persist in this tit for tat pew-pew, it completely undermines any valid objection they could have. Israel justify it as legitimate defense.

Also, y'know, if Israel really just wanted 'the land', they could have mowed them all down and out of the way at any time in the last 50 years.


The thing is, the Israelis built settlements on land they grabbed illegally. And when the Palestinians threw stones at it, sent in the choppers. They have been mowing all and sundry down on land that is not theirs since 1967. The accord signed under Clinton broke down over those boundaries.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:30 
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ComicalGerald wrote:
Also, y'know, if Israel really just wanted 'the land', they could have mowed them all down and out of the way at any time in the last 50 years.


Blimey, that's a bit "final solution" isn't it? There's about 2.5 million people there, and apparently very little option for them to go anywhere.
Nobody up to and including the US is going to be happy with wholesale slaughter.

No, they need to make do with keeping the place a hell-hole and hoping that the population decreases by itself, by low birth rates, high death rates due to poor health service and emigration to other Arab countries.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:31 
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ComicalGerald wrote:
Also, y'know, if Israel really just wanted 'the land', they could have mowed them all down and out of the way at any time in the last 50 years.


That has never, and (crosses fingers against some new and even more effective cleansing machinery) will never be true. No mass murderer in history, even (no, I didn't mention him, yay me) has successfully cleansed a land of its people. 'We' have the power to kill masses and masses of people, but some always survive, so you have to be a barrel full more sneaky. I'm not just being pedantic - that kind of "ha, if they wanted to they could wipe them out" argument plays well amongst those who've taken their macho pills but is untrue and misleading. In reality you have to mix politics and force to get anywhere, something both sides are doing. Arguably, in fact, Palestinian terror has been pretty effective in gaining political concessions, albeit of the tiny-step-forward from a totally shit situation type.

And shouting in the street is how more sneaky lobbying campaigns work, plus has the advantage of being recognisable when we look back through history and try to spot where general opinions changed and the like.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 13:32 
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kalmar wrote:
emigration to other Arab countries.

Who won't let them move there.

There are no sides acting well in the whole thing. Some are acting worse than others though, as one would expect better of them.

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