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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:30 
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Grim... wrote:
That sounds very similar to a book I read about what bands thought about the rise of music radio (and specifically home taping), and then again with MTV (and, of course, they survived).

Fucked if I can remember what it was called, it was really good. I'll give it some thought.


Of course, you’ll never know how many of your all time favourite bands didn’t make it.

It isn’t even a vaguely controversial statement to say that Spotify prioritises consumer experience over the creators of the content though. Right?

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:40 
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I've found so many basically unheard of bands, and boughted stuff by them (for the gifting of people with similar tastes) via Spotify, I'd say from that perspective it helps the smaller bands. Without it I don't know how I'd find new music.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:52 
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Mr Dave wrote:
I've found so many basically unheard of bands, and boughted stuff by them (for the gifting of people with similar tastes) via Spotify, I'd say from that perspective it helps the smaller bands. Without it I don't know how I'd find new music.


Mixtapes.

Preferably off a girl at college you really fancy.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:57 
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Hearthly wrote:
Mixtapes.

Preferably off a girl at college you really fancy.

I think that'd get me arrested.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:08 
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Cras wrote:
Warhead wrote:
Good grief. If Spotify is $600million in debt, how the hell does it keep going? How do ANY of them keep going?


It's not about making money and more. It's about eating VC funding until you get bought by somebody.


Don't they plan to list on the stock market this year?

Think there is a bit of urgency as they have at least a billion of borrowings that has increased interest rates and stock price discounts the longer they take to do this.

Don't really understand the 8-13 billion value, they make no money. Growth comes from more subscribers, so they will have to end up buying rivals to grow at some point?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compariso ... g_services

There not even the biggest in terms of users and certainly not the number of tracks.

Very happy with the service though so once the free year we got from Vodafone runs out I'll be signing up.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:08 
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Curiosity wrote:
It isn’t even a vaguely controversial statement to say that Spotify prioritises consumer experience over the creators of the content though. Right?


Probably not - but again, so do HMV. Or did, when they actually sold music.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:14 
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Curiosity wrote:
It isn’t even a vaguely controversial statement to say that Spotify prioritises consumer experience over the creators of the content though. Right?


It might or might not be, it's hard to say when I've no real idea what that sentence means. The 'consumer experience' is the UX, the access to music they want and other features like recommendations, playlists, etc. None of that is at all at odds with Spotify's duty to the creators (i.e. to pay them money) so what are we actually saying here?


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:47 
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Bamba wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
It isn’t even a vaguely controversial statement to say that Spotify prioritises consumer experience over the creators of the content though. Right?


It might or might not be, it's hard to say when I've no real idea what that sentence means. The 'consumer experience' is the UX, the access to music they want and other features like recommendations, playlists, etc. None of that is at all at odds with Spotify's duty to the creators (i.e. to pay them money) so what are we actually saying here?


That Spotify will happily fuck over artists/creators because they are in a position of power in the market, and if they need to make a choice to pay artists or do other things, they will do other things.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:09 
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Curiosity wrote:
Bamba wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
It isn’t even a vaguely controversial statement to say that Spotify prioritises consumer experience over the creators of the content though. Right?


It might or might not be, it's hard to say when I've no real idea what that sentence means. The 'consumer experience' is the UX, the access to music they want and other features like recommendations, playlists, etc. None of that is at all at odds with Spotify's duty to the creators (i.e. to pay them money) so what are we actually saying here?


That Spotify will happily fuck over artists/creators because they are in a position of power in the market, and if they need to make a choice to pay artists or do other things, they will do other things.


Well, they don't 'choose' whether to pay artists or not; they'll pay the labels (as Grim points out) according to whatever contract they've got with them. And you can be pretty sure they'll be honouring that as record labels aren't known for leaving money on the table. Will Spotify be using their ubiquity in the market as leverage when negotiating these deals? Absolutely for sure. But claiming that they'll just decide not to pay and go do 'something else' instead is a bit odd.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:12 
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I think it's worth pointing out (in one case) how much Spotify pays artists - it's $0.00066481 per premium stream (ad-supported streams pay $0.00022288).

That's really close to being nothing at all. If you - as an artist - wanted to earn $100 from Spotify, your songs would have to be streamed 150,419 times on the premium tier.

Now, how much of that is the label's fault - Bob Lefsetz says "quite a lot": http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/2017/01/11 ... -payments/

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:51 
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Bamba wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
Bamba wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
It isn’t even a vaguely controversial statement to say that Spotify prioritises consumer experience over the creators of the content though. Right?


It might or might not be, it's hard to say when I've no real idea what that sentence means. The 'consumer experience' is the UX, the access to music they want and other features like recommendations, playlists, etc. None of that is at all at odds with Spotify's duty to the creators (i.e. to pay them money) so what are we actually saying here?


That Spotify will happily fuck over artists/creators because they are in a position of power in the market, and if they need to make a choice to pay artists or do other things, they will do other things.


Well, they don't 'choose' whether to pay artists or not; they'll pay the labels (as Grim points out) according to whatever contract they've got with them. And you can be pretty sure they'll be honouring that as record labels aren't known for leaving money on the table. Will Spotify be using their ubiquity in the market as leverage when negotiating these deals? Absolutely for sure. But claiming that they'll just decide not to pay and go do 'something else' instead is a bit odd.


Yes, I agree that the record companies are part of the issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 13:14 
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This is a few years old (April 2015) but a decent read about the cost of music over the decades. Due to the time it was written it struggles to get much data on streaming, but c’est la vie.

The tl;dr of the article is that it is very hard to compare the ‘value’ of songs across eras, other than to say that the overall music industry has shrunk significantly, and consumer cost has generally gone down.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 13:34 
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You probably meant to link something, Curio.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 13:38 
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You'd expect consumer cost to go down when the physical cost of media and media logistics has dropped to zero.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 13:43 
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Cras wrote:
You'd expect consumer cost to go down when the physical cost of media and media logistics has dropped to zero.

Yeah, Sony.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 13:54 
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But producing CDs cost next to nothing in the volume they were producing them. Yet we still had to fork out £16 for Rednex's 'Sex and Violins'.

I fear we have swung too far the other way now. Music shouldn't be this cheap and disposable.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 14:10 
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Lonewolves wrote:
But producing CDs cost next to nothing in the volume they were producing them. Yet we still had to fork out £16 for Rednex's 'Sex and Violins'.

I fear we have swung too far the other way now. Music shouldn't be this cheap and disposable.


Logistics costs aren't just the cost of a blank CD. There's the cost of packaging, trucking, warehousing, and paying people to do all of those things.

I spend more on music now than I did before streaming services existed, but then I appreciate I'm probably not the norm.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 14:16 
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I spend a lot less than I did before the internet but a lot more than I did until I got a paid Spotify account, because then I was spending basically nothing at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 14:19 
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It's difficult. It isn't fair if artists aren't be paid fairly for all their work, when I can access more music than I ever have.

That said, as a Premium Subscriber to Spotify, I'd find it hard to choose a higher price point I'd be comfortable with.

£12.99 per month perhaps. But that's not enough to transform the fortunes of musicians.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 14:49 
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Cras wrote:
You'd expect consumer cost to go down when the physical cost of media and media logistics has dropped to zero.


But it’s gone down for the physical versions too, despite negligible change in physical costs and loss of some economies of scale.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 15:14 
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Cras wrote:
I spend more on music now than I did before streaming services existed, but then I appreciate I'm probably not the norm.

I suspect that's not true - I'd imagine that lots of people with a subscription to a streaming service are paying more than they used to, because they used to pay fuck all.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 15:20 
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Curiosity wrote:
Cras wrote:
You'd expect consumer cost to go down when the physical cost of media and media logistics has dropped to zero.


But it’s gone down for the physical versions too, despite negligible change in physical costs and loss of some economies of scale.


Right, but that's because demand has fallen off a cliff.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 15:32 
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Grim... wrote:
Cras wrote:
I spend more on music now than I did before streaming services existed, but then I appreciate I'm probably not the norm.

I suspect that's not true - I'd imagine that lots of people with a subscription to a streaming service are paying more than they used to, because they used to pay fuck all.

Maybe I'm the exception then. I used to buy a lot of music. Both physical and digital.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 17:00 
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Buying a CD in the early 90s used to feel really special. They were expensive and after i bought one, i barely heard anything else in the weeks after.

Now i rarely buy CDs. Both because i have so much more expenses and bills, but also because music has been devalued so much that i feel buying a cd is a waste of money. While it pains me to say, Radiohead were right.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 17:15 
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Grim... wrote:
I think it's worth pointing out (in one case) how much Spotify pays artists - it's $0.00066481 per premium stream (ad-supported streams pay $0.00022288).

Let’s compare that to CD sales to add some context. Random link barfed up by that site I work for, but this article suggests something like $0.50 to the band for a CD sale. Divided by, say, ten tracks is $0.05 per track; you’d have to listen to it 75 times on Spotify premium to equal the revenue-per-listen of the CD. That doesn’t seem wildly out of whack, actually. I have plenty of albums I’ve listened to that much. So that Spotify figure isn’t as shockingly low as it sound.

I think movies, TV shows, and books are counter examples. Those industries all digitised while having “tiers” of offering. A movie starts expensive in cinemas, then is available to buy on streaming or physical formats, then is available to PPV, then is available via bundled streaming services like Amazon Video or (decreasingly) Netflix. Music never managed that trick of having multiple availability and price points. Bundled streaming ate the world. Why was it different? Was it because it went first, and everyone else learned from the mistake? Is it because a movie is more of a one-off thing (how many DVDs have you owned you’ve never watched twice?) so a fragmented library isn’t an issue, whereas having two music libraries — an app for music you bought and another for music you rented — would suck? I’m not sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 17:39 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
I have plenty of albums I’ve listened to [75 times]. So that Spotify figure isn’t as shockingly low as it sound.

Of course, the band still gets the money if you listen to the album zero times.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 18:06 
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Quote:
a fragmented library isn’t an issue, whereas having two music libraries — an app for music you bought and another for music you rented — would suck? I’m not sure.


The industry also assumed you'd buy the same album on mono 33.3, then upgrade to stereo, eight track, cassette, and CD, buying the same music each time.

I'm the rarest of retro peeps: I buy CDs rather than vinyl. I like having something physical.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 18:06 
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Vinyl being ethereal somehow?

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 18:15 
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Kern wrote:
Quote:
a fragmented library isn’t an issue, whereas having two music libraries — an app for music you bought and another for music you rented — would suck? I’m not sure.


The industry also assumed you'd buy the same album on mono 33.3, then upgrade to stereo, eight track, cassette, and CD, buying the same music each time.

I'm the rarest of retro peeps: I buy CDs rather than vinyl. I like having something physical.


You are the smartest kind. Vynil is nice and all but gets damaged over time and to take full advantage of the analogue medium you need a pretty expensive setup.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 18:17 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Vinyl being ethereal somehow?

Sure, it's close to impossible to play it with causing microscopic and accumulating damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 18:40 
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Sometimes I have a hankering to listen to my favourite songs on vinyl.

So I just listen on headphones and eat a bag of popping candy. A flawless recreation.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 19:27 
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I don't like having to faff with the player every 20 minutes.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 19:32 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Vinyl being ethereal somehow?


There is something magical about how a needle moving through a series of grooves can produce sound.

On which point, I once did a tour of the Mechanical Music Museum in the Cotswolds and to see a 100 year old wax cylinder be placed into a device and produce surprisingly good sound was amazing.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 19:35 
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Kern wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
Vinyl being ethereal somehow?

There is something magical about how a needle moving through a series of grooves can produce sound.

More magical than shooting a chunk of metal with a laser?

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 19:40 
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Yes, in the same way that a steam locomotive is more magical than a TGV. You can look at it in operation and grasp how it does its thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 23:29 
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Kern wrote:
Yes, in the same way that a steam locomotive is more magical than a TGV. You can look at it in operation and grasp how it does its thing.


:this: And it’s not only the medium on which the music is provided, it’s the packaging and additional information. It was bad enough when the 12” album cover was replaced with the 5” CD cover, but now there is no packaging if you’re just downloading. Not only was the 12” cover ideal for doing justice to the cover art, but you got additional items like lyric sheets, details of exactly who played on each track, who were the engineers, producers, tape operators and even the tea boys. Yes, this info was/is often included on CD covers but it was too fucking small to read without a magnifying glass. If you download, you get fuck all except the music.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 23:34 
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That’s not an inherent limitation of digital music formats. They could very easily come with all the extra content you want; iTunes LP was a format for exactly that. It’s just artists can’t be bothered / people don’t actually care (delete as appropriate.)


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 23:38 
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Absolutely. It’s just old farts like me who like to know which albums were cut by Porky Peckham. Kids today don’t know they’re missing that info, because they’ve never had it.

Obviously, everything were much better when I were nobbut a nipper.

But I DO like to be able to plug my iPod into the USB port in my van (I know this is old tech already, but it’s still a great innovation for someone who can remember when the first vynil 7” single players were installed in cars and cassette players hadn’t been invented) and have my whole music collection available as I careen around the country at someone else’s expense, so there is an upside.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:32 
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Warhead wrote:
Absolutely. It’s just old farts like me who like to know which albums were cut by Porky Peckham. Kids today don’t know they’re missing that info, because they’ve never had it.

Obviously, everything were much better when I were nobbut a nipper.

But I DO like to be able to plug my iPod into the USB port in my van (I know this is old tech already, but it’s still a great innovation for someone who can remember when the first vynil 7” single players were installed in cars and cassette players hadn’t been invented) and have my whole music collection available as I careen around the country at someone else’s expense, so there is an upside.


It's old tech but still better than Bluetooth. Two years ago i had a job with a nice company car, and an USB port was also a novelty for me. After a while i started using the car's Bluetooth for convenience instead of the USB port and was appalled of how terrible the music sounded, specially compared to what comes from the speakers of my '98 ford focus.

Well, i went to read online what it's about and yes. Bluetooth is shit and compresses the music. Don't use it.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:33 
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RuySan wrote:
Bluetooth is shit and compresses the music. Don't use it.


Can't make me.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:47 
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BEEX MONEY SPINNING PLAN : New, zero-compression bluetooth-like protocol for Audiophiles.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:50 
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Bluetooth is by design low bandwidth, so that it can be low power and your headphones etc last longer than 20 minutes.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:53 
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Squirt wrote:
BEEX MONEY SPINNING PLAN : New, zero-compression bluetooth-like protocol for Audiophiles.


This is what we need


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:21 
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Cras wrote:
Bluetooth is by design low bandwidth, so that it can be low power and your headphones etc last longer than 20 minutes.

If they care about audio quality, they'll accept having to be constantly plugged into the mains in order to experience the wonder of our lossless wireless audio protocols!


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:39 
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Squirt wrote:
Cras wrote:
Bluetooth is by design low bandwidth, so that it can be low power and your headphones etc last longer than 20 minutes.

If they care about audio quality, they'll accept having to be constantly plugged into the mains in order to experience the wonder of our lossless wireless audio protocols!

The power cable also carries hi-fi audio!


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 13:07 
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Squirt wrote:
BEEX MONEY SPINNING PLAN : New, zero-compression bluetooth-like protocol for Audiophiles.


You don't need to be an audiophile to notice that Bluetooth sounds terrible. I'm certainly not an audiophile and FLAC files can go die in a fire. Give me LAME v0 mp3 any day.

But every time i see someone using bluetooth headphones on the street i get the urge to brutally roundhouse kick them. Even if it's an old man or a child.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 13:32 
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RuySan wrote:
FLAC files can go die in a fire


Why?


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 13:41 
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RuySan wrote:
Squirt wrote:
BEEX MONEY SPINNING PLAN : New, zero-compression bluetooth-like protocol for Audiophiles.


You don't need to be an audiophile to notice that Bluetooth sounds terrible. I'm certainly not an audiophile and FLAC files can go die in a fire. Give me LAME v0 mp3 any day.

But every time i see someone using bluetooth headphones on the street i get the urge to brutally roundhouse kick them. Even if it's an old man or a child.



I have bluetooth headphones that can be cabled if needed, and I really don't notice any difference when listening to them. I also have a bluetooth speaker bar (with added bluetooth subwoofer) and I don't notice any difference there either.

Maybe I have shit ears or something, but I imagine that if most people could tell the difference the various headphone manufacturers would not be so profitable.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 13:43 
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RuySan wrote:
Squirt wrote:
BEEX MONEY SPINNING PLAN : New, zero-compression bluetooth-like protocol for Audiophiles.


You don't need to be an audiophile to notice that Bluetooth sounds terrible.


You pretty much do. Audio over Bluetooth sounds perfectly fine to me. Wouldn't be convinced I could tell you the difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify - Free music streaming thingy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 13:45 
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Bluetooth: I've not noticed the difference in various cars. Of quality, anyway - volume, yes, and battery life, boom. Enough so of the latter that I bought an AUX cable for the last rental car (which also let me use my iPod shuffle, so saving phone battery totally).


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