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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:40 
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Plissken wrote:
Grim... wrote:
DRS was properly broken in that race.

No.

Yes.
The reason Schumacher couldn't get back past Webber is because after overtaking Schumacher, Webber was allowed to use his DRS again on the next straight, despite being in front. Madness.

Monaco is the only race where they've got it right so far.

I don't see what b) has to do with DRS :S

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:06 
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You know what's sad for F1? This week I made sure I watched WWE Superstars because YoshiTatsu & Tyson Kidd were wrestling. I forgot F1 was on. Yeah Bernie, your product is less interesting than a predetermined pro-wrestling match between two jobbers on WWE's C show. Yoshi won, which was awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:12 
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The second point is important unless you want to claim, wrongly, that one use of DRS, by one driver, in one instance is enough to declare the entire system as "broken"? Because you seem to be very conveniently ignoring the fact that it didn't help Button. (Not that he needed it.)

And you want to claim that the second use of DRS (on the pit straight) is sufficient boost to put Schumacher an entire second behind in just 1.5 miles and make him unable to use his own DRS?

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:25 
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Plissken wrote:
The second point is important unless you want to claim, wrongly, that one use of DRS, by one driver, in one instance is enough to declare the entire system as "broken"?

I hate it anyway. Like, hate it hate it. Why not just force drivers less than one second ahead to yield to the driver behind, which is what it amounts to (either that, or it seems to make hardly any difference at all - Monaco is the only place it worked as they wanted it to so far).

Plissken wrote:
Because you seem to be very conveniently ignoring the fact that it didn't help Button. (Not that he needed it.)

It won him the race. As soon as Red Bull saw that Button was within one second of Vettel, they'd have radio'd through and told him. Vettel needed to get one second ahead of Jenson to avoid handing him the place on the first DRS straight, and cocked up. Anyway, Button used DRS to overtake Schumacher. I agree he perhaps didn't need to, but Schumacher can make his car very wide. I think he also used it to get around Webber, but I can't find any video of that so I can't be sure.

Plissken wrote:
And you want to claim that the second use of DRS (on the pit straight) is sufficient boost to put Schumacher an entire second behind in just 1.5 miles and make him unable to use his own DRS?

It's a good start. The overtake caused Schmi to wobble onto the wet line and cross the chicane, which was far more to do with it. But surely you're not saying that you think the a car should be able to use their DRS again once they've overtaken?

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:32 
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The DRS rules confuse me. I can't understand why, if you have this capability, the drivers can't just use it at will. The way it's treated is very confusing, more like a "boost" power up on a video game. Perhaps that's what they were going for?

With KERS it seems more reasonable, but again I'd have liked to see a fixed amount of energy storage which you can use as you like, rather than the artificial seconds per lap rule.

Anyway, was fun to watch in the end, and a good result :)


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:32 
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Plissken wrote:
Because you seem to be very conveniently ignoring the fact that it didn't help Button. (Not that he needed it.)
I'm quite glad he appears to agree with me ;)

Quote:
“They have all been special, but today was extra special. I have to admit that without KERS and the DRS it would have been very difficult to win. Using KERS and the DRS correctly makes a bit difference,” stated the Brit.

http://blogs.bettor.com/McLarens-Jenson ... ews-a75084

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:34 
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kalmar wrote:
The DRS rules confuse me. I can't understand why, if you have this capability, the drivers can't just use it at will. The way it's treated is very confusing, more like a "boost" power up on a video game. Perhaps that's what they were going for?

If anyone could use it when they liked, the field would be even, and that wouldn't create overtaking. It's exactly like a computer game "boost" power up, although you do have to be within 1 second of the car in front to use it (although not at the point you use it - it's measured elsewhere on the track).

kalmar wrote:
With KERS it seems more reasonable, but again I'd have liked to see a fixed amount of energy storage, which you can use as you like, rather than the artificial seconds per lap rule.

Does that not amount to the same thing?

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:44 
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Grim... wrote:
kalmar wrote:
The DRS rules confuse me. I can't understand why, if you have this capability, the drivers can't just use it at will. The way it's treated is very confusing, more like a "boost" power up on a video game. Perhaps that's what they were going for?

If anyone could use it when they liked, the field would be even, and that wouldn't create overtaking. It's exactly like a computer game "boost" power up.

I think we're agreeing that the rules are a bit daft.

Quote:
kalmar wrote:
With KERS it seems more reasonable, but again I'd have liked to see a fixed amount of energy storage, which you can use as you like, rather than the artificial seconds per lap rule.

Does that not amount to the same thing?


Almost, but real regen on a hybrid doesn't magically reset to 6 seconds (or whatever it is) when you cross an arbitrary line. If you use it all up, you're knackered until you can next charge it up by braking. In reality that sort of decision is going on behind the scenes anyway, and I think it would be an interesting strategic thing to watch.


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:45 
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kalmar wrote:
Grim... wrote:
kalmar wrote:
The DRS rules confuse me. I can't understand why, if you have this capability, the drivers can't just use it at will. The way it's treated is very confusing, more like a "boost" power up on a video game. Perhaps that's what they were going for?

If anyone could use it when they liked, the field would be even, and that wouldn't create overtaking. It's exactly like a computer game "boost" power up.

I think we're agreeing that the rules are a bit daft.

We are.

kalmar wrote:
Quote:
kalmar wrote:
With KERS it seems more reasonable, but again I'd have liked to see a fixed amount of energy storage, which you can use as you like, rather than the artificial seconds per lap rule.

Does that not amount to the same thing?

Almost, but real regen on a hybrid doesn't magically reset to 6 seconds (or whatever it is) when you cross an arbitrary line. If you use it all up, you're knackered until you can next charge it up by braking. In reality that sort of decision is going on behind the scenes anyway, and I think it would be an interesting strategic thing to watch.

Would that not mean they could pretty much use it all the time, though?

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:52 
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It would still be restricted by the amount of energy stored, and how aggressively you can recharge it (turning it up too much causes brake balance issues, which means being more timid into the corners). Teams and drivers would choose to use it in different ways, it would still be about the skill and strategy :shrug:
Anyway, no big deal, at least it's easy to grasp seconds per lap. The DRS activation rules, not so much!


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:21 
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kalmar wrote:
It would still be restricted by the amount of energy stored, and how aggressively you can recharge it (turning it up too much causes brake balance issues, which means being more timid into the corners). Teams and drivers would choose to use it in different ways, it would still be about the skill and strategy :shrug:
Anyway, no big deal, at least it's easy to grasp seconds per lap. The DRS activation rules, not so much!

The problem with unrestricted KERS is that it gives benefits to the teams with the bigger budgets, who can afford to develop such a system. Budgets may be capped in some respects, but the teams with a car company link may find it remarkably cheap to acquire such a developed system from their parent company. At least with an artificial limitation, teams are developing to a capped level of output and use, so the only issues that they can develop to are reliability, effect on aero, and effect on braking capacity.


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:29 
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Well, Red Bull has a fucking huge budget but still can't get their KERS to work reliably...

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:36 
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On the BBC coverage, Eddie Jordan continues to really annoy me. Is he under the impression he is F1's answer to Jeremy Paxman? I find his interviewing style rude, abrupt and downright hostile at times. Not impressed.

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:45 
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Grim... wrote:
I hate it anyway. Like, hate it hate it.


Doesn't mean you get to arbitrarily declare it is broken. The system worked as designed, lots of overtaking at the head of the field and drivers being forced to attack and defend. Is it artificial? Yes. So is KERS, ballast and any other system designed to give good racing.

Quote:
Why not just force drivers less than one second ahead to yield to the driver behind, which is what it amounts to (either that, or it seems to make hardly any difference at all - Monaco is the only place it worked as they wanted it to so far).


So are you saying DRS works or it doesn't?

PGrim... wrote:
It won him the race. As soon as Red Bull saw that Button was within one second of Vettel, they'd have radio'd through and told him. Vettel needed to get one second ahead of Jenson to avoid handing him the place on the first DRS straight, and cocked up.


You are ignoring the fact that Button was catching Vettel at 1.5+ seconds per lap before it came into play anyway. You are also ignoring the fact that Button had, on the lap before the overtake (69?), had the advantage of DRS and it didn't get him past.

Face it - you are using the fact that the two best cars in the field used DRS to help blast past one of the upper midfield runners, once and ignoring all the other evidence.

Quote:
I think he also used it to get around Webber, but I can't find any video of that so I can't be sure.


It didn't, because Webber had DRS available to him as well. He was close enough to Schumacher. IIRC, Webber screwed up an overtake of Schumacher and Button jumped the pair of them.

Jenson is saying KERS and DRS helped him - of course it did. But he was mowing down the field before it was even switched on, he took two (I think) superbly opportunistic overtakes and managed to show yet again that Vettel ain't all that when the heat is on. To say it was because of DRS is to do the guy a huge injustice.

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:55 
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Plissken wrote:
Grim... wrote:
I hate it anyway. Like, hate it hate it.

Doesn't mean you get to arbitrarily declare it is broken. The system worked as designed, lots of overtaking at the head of the field and drivers being forced to attack and defend.

DRS is supposed to put the cars neck and neck into the braking zone, like it did at Monaco. If it doesn't, it's not working properly.
They even have the ability to resize the activation zone during the race, but so far (to the best of my knowledge) they haven't.

Plissken wrote:
So are you saying DRS works or it doesn't?

See above.

Plissken wrote:
Grim... wrote:
It won him the race. As soon as Red Bull saw that Button was within one second of Vettel, they'd have radio'd through and told him. Vettel needed to get one second ahead of Jenson to avoid handing him the place on the first DRS straight, and cocked up.

You are ignoring the fact that Button was catching Vettel at 1.5+ seconds per lap before it came into play anyway. You are also ignoring the fact that Button had, on the lap before the overtake (69?), had the advantage of DRS and it didn't get him past.

See above.

Plissken wrote:
Face it - you are using the fact that the two best cars in the field used DRS to help blast past one of the upper midfield runners, once and ignoring all the other evidence.

I'm just going by how it's supposed to work.

Plissken wrote:
Grim... wrote:
I think he also used it to get around Webber, but I can't find any video of that so I can't be sure.

It didn't, because Webber had DRS available to him as well. He was close enough to Schumacher. IIRC, Webber screwed up an overtake of Schumacher and Button jumped the pair of them.

Yeah, I think you're right. Odd that there's loads of footage of him overtaking Schumacher, but not of Button taking Webber.

Plissken wrote:
Vettel ain't all that when the heat is on

8)

Plissken wrote:
To say [Button's Win] was because of DRS is to do the guy a huge injustice.

Without it, he'd have been forth behind Vettel, Schumacher and Webber (he might have got Webber).

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:12 
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DRS is hardly forcing drivers with a <1 second advantage to yield. It gives the driver behind a better chance of overtaking, but you can cite tons of opportunities between racers where DRS didn't get them past.

You can say that DRS 'won' Button the race, but you can also say that having easily the best car 'won' Vettel all of his. The fact that they did what they did is worthy of credit, and if it was as simple as being just DRS then Button wouldn't have been able to come through the field and take everyone, as they would have the chance to immediately get him back.

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:25 
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Curiosity wrote:
The fact that they did what they did is worthy of credit

Absolutely, and I'm not denying that.

Curiosity wrote:
best car

That's a rather innacurate and overused phrase in F1. You get good cars and bad ones, sure - the a McLaren is obviously better than a Virgin car, for example. But putting, say, Rosberg into Kinky Kylie isn't going to turn him into a winner overnight (and maybe not at all), in just the same way that Vettel wouldn't win in a McLaren (but maybe he would). The combination of car and driver are what's important - obviously the Red Bull is close to perfect for Vettel and he's driving it damned well. Putting it all onto the car is inaccurate (and rather unfair). However, I would dearly love to see an exhibition race at the end of the season where the Championship winner goes into the worst-performing car, second in the championship into the second-worst car, etc. And another one with them all in identical Toyota Yaris'.

Curiosity wrote:
[...] and if it was as simple as being just DRS then Button wouldn't have been able to come through the field and take everyone, as they would have the chance to immediately get him back.

Sure, but Jenson (or anyone, doesn't matter) was more than one second faster than the people he was overtaking per lap - think of how he tore away from Kobayashi in his race for the World Championship when he finally managed to get past him. Just because you're faster than someone and can get on their gearbox, you shouldn't then be allowed to trundle past them.

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:29 
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Button didn't use DRS to get past Webber, did he? He was behind webber, who was behind schumacher and webber tried to take schumacher but messed it up and went over the grass. While the front two were watching each other button nipped out onto the left and went past them both (it was just after he went past that webber went on the grass). I'm pretty sure he wasn't using DRS.


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:32 
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Gilly is skim-reading ;)

I think he did nip past Webber, but he used DRS to get past Schumacher (and Webber wasn't around at that point) - you can see it in some of the replays.

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:40 
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Grim... wrote:
you shouldn't then be allowed to trundle past them.

No, but the way the aero of the cars is designed makes it impossible to run in the turbulent air behind the car in front. Admittedly it's not the most elegant solution, but until they sort out the aero rules to allow better overtaking, this is a reasonable attempt to counteract that.

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:43 
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I'm in two minds about KERS and DRS. On the one hand I think it is horrific and completely goes against the spirit of racing and the skill involved.
On the other hand it has made for some terrific races and i'm enjoying this season much more than any other season in the past few years...


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:47 
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myoptikakaka wrote:
Grim... wrote:
you shouldn't then be allowed to trundle past them.

No, but the way the aero of the cars is designed makes it impossible to run in the turbulent air behind the car in front.

Hard, not impossible, but sure, that's the problem they trying to solve. And in a lot of ways, they have solved it. The thing is, DRS is too artificial, especially when they could go with smaller wings and bigger tyres.
But just making the DRS work like it's supposed to (like it did at Monaco) would help, too.

And, of course, back to my main point that everyone is ignoring - being able to use it after you've overtaken a car is fucking stupid.

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 14:31 
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Nemmie wrote:
Vettels glum face after the race was a joy to see. I hope to see it again soon.

Amazing drive by Button. Well worth the long wait.


he looked gutted ndeed... due to the delay i was actually able to watch a f1 race this year, and a nice one too..

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 18:19 
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Pundabaya wrote:
You know what's sad for F1? This week I made sure I watched WWE Superstars because YoshiTatsu & Tyson Kidd were wrestling. I forgot F1 was on. Yeah Bernie, your product is less interesting than a predetermined pro-wrestling match between two jobbers on WWE's C show. Yoshi won, which was awesome.

Surprisingly good match, that.

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 18:42 
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Trooper wrote:
I'm in two minds about KERS and DRS. On the one hand I think it is horrific and completely goes against the spirit of racing and the skill involved.
On the other hand it has made for some terrific races and i'm enjoying this season much more than any other season in the past few years...

KERS I don't mind It's equal for all, and despite fears, people aren't all using it in the same places, so it isn't cancelling out (yet)
DRS, on the other hand, is ruining the season for me. Because the rules around it are completely screwed up.
Safety cars... That the track had reached intermediate conditions before they brought it in was really pathetic.
And endless Stewards enquiries for people racing. Grr.


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 18:58 
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I wrote a nice reply to this, but an SMS from Dogwood made me lose it.
I'll do it again when I get home.

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 19:11 
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Mr Dave wrote:
And endless Stewards enquiries for people racing. Grr.


I've said.... elsewhere.... that there is probably the same number of stewards enquiries as there always were, but we the audience now get to find out about them immediately instead of after the race.

Some say it would be too much information. Some say it adds to the drama over a two hour race.

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 18:57 
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Interesting little graph from the race at the weekend!


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 14:52 
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http://wtf1.co.uk/post/6937150582


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 15:23 

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First race I've given up on this year. So bored of Vettel. At least when Schumacher was doing this sort of good qualifier, then cruise round in the fastest car bollocks, we could all hate him. I don't even hate Vettel.


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 15:24 
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I do quite dislike Vettel, but I still fell asleep.


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 15:40 
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Even Jenson Button was bored and he was driving around it at speed, and had pretty much the only notable moment in the whole race when he passed Rosberg.


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 16:22 
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I won't watch it, then.


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 16:38 
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That would be wise.


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 17:20 
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GovernmentYard wrote:
So bored of Vettel


Exactly, which is why when the FIA claim the engine mapping stuff isn't political it's hilarious. This week's tweak didn't have much of an effect, guess we'll see what Silverstone brings.

Also somewhat worried before the race Ecclestone sounded like he was saying they were going to bin Barcelona and have Valencia as the sole GP in Spain before some furious backpeddaling and "we'll work it out".


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 17:28 
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Frankly, both need binning. Catalunya is better than Valencia, but barely.

They've been among the very worst races each year they've been held.


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:44 
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First race I've not watched either live or very shortly afterwards.

*deletes from Sky+*

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 Post subject: Formula 1
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:07 

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Aargh !! Fuck you BBC, Fuck you SKY & Fuck you Bernie


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:09 
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Unpossible!

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gospvg wrote:
Aargh !! Fuck you BBC, Fuck you SKY & Fuck you Bernie

:facepalm: Well, that's the end of my interest.


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:43 
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Isn't that lovely?

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DavPaz wrote:
gospvg wrote:
Aargh !! Fuck you BBC, Fuck you SKY & Fuck you Bernie

:facepalm: Well, that's the end of my interest.



Quote:
BBC Sport will broadcast half the races live, as well as the qualifying and practice sessions from those races.


You can still watch 1/2 of the races on the bbc...

Malc

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:50 
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Paws for thought

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Malc wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
gospvg wrote:
Aargh !! Fuck you BBC, Fuck you SKY & Fuck you Bernie

:facepalm: Well, that's the end of my interest.



Quote:
BBC Sport will broadcast half the races live, as well as the qualifying and practice sessions from those races.


You can still watch 1/2 of the races on the bbc...

Malc

Half the races is a broken season. Not interested.


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:53 
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I'm pretty sure that if you got to write all the rules yourself and had your own TV station to show the coverage that you'd still just moan about every single race.

I'm really not fussed, if I decide I'm really bothered I'll get Sky but I'll probably just watch the races on the BBC and the highlights of the others :shrug: I'm certainly not in favour of the BBC paying huge sums to keep it.


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:54 
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Unpossible!

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Mr Dave wrote:
Half the races is a broken season. Not interested.

My thoughts exactly. I was wavering anyway. I'd honestly prefer them to move to sky completely, instead of a half baked tease.

Wankers.


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:56 
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Watching the internet explode in an impotent F1 ragegasm has been interesting this morning.

It's probably the best we could've hoped for, considering that due to licence fee cuts the BBC couldn't afford the astronomical fee to remain exclusive rights holders. At least this way the most important races have been saved, and on balance it's probably better than the whole lot going to ITV again.

As long as in 2018 it doesn't all go to Sky exclusively then I'm ok with this.

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:01 
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Isn't that lovely?

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I have sky sports, so I'm not that bothered. Also as I don't watch it as much as I'd like I'm not bothered again.

Malc

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:15 
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Gogmagog

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Malc wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
gospvg wrote:
Aargh !! Fuck you BBC, Fuck you SKY & Fuck you Bernie

:facepalm: Well, that's the end of my interest.



Quote:
BBC Sport will broadcast half the races live, as well as the qualifying and practice sessions from those races.


You can still watch 1/2 of the races on the bbc...

Malc


I thought that meant the first 30 laps...

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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:26 
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ugvm'er at heart...

Joined: 4th Mar, 2010
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DavPaz wrote:
Mr Dave wrote:
Half the races is a broken season. Not interested.

My thoughts exactly. I was wavering anyway. I'd honestly prefer them to move to sky completely, instead of a half baked tease.

Wankers.


Indeed.

Add to that the BBC coverage being lightyears ahead in terms of quality to ITV, I'd be surprised if Sky was at BBC level, the difference will be extremely jarring.

I was thoroughly enjoying this season, this has taken the shine off it somewhat...


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:32 
I haven't seen any of it this season due to it being on cable tv here.


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:35 

Joined: 7th Nov, 2008
Posts: 2306
Malc wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
gospvg wrote:
Aargh !! Fuck you BBC, Fuck you SKY & Fuck you Bernie

:facepalm: Well, that's the end of my interest.



Quote:
BBC Sport will broadcast half the races live, as well as the qualifying and practice sessions from those races.


You can still watch 1/2 of the races on the bbc...

Malc


Would you watch half a football match?


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 Post subject: Re: Formula 1
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:41 
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gospvg wrote:
Would you watch half a football match?

Disingenious. They are showing whole races, just not all of them. You can't currently watch every Premier League game (or even every game for one team).

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