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Gas Guzzling Money Pits
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Author:  Mr Dave [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 15:11 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

I Have never had a car with headlight washers /wipers.

The number of times I ever wished this not the case is 0. They seem, if not entirely pointless, at least a niche requirement.

Author:  myp [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 15:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

markg wrote:
Never really seen much point to headlight washers. :shrug:

The law is you must have them if you have xenon headlamps.

-edit- or it was. Now it seems to be only if you have headlamps that produce over 2000 lumens.

Author:  myp [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 15:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Mr Dave wrote:
I Have never had a car with headlight washers /wipers.

The number of times I ever wished this not the case is 0. They seem, if not entirely pointless, at least a niche requirement.

It's about making sure dirt doesn't cause glare and dazzle other road users.

Quote:
So why do headlamps need a washer system at all? Most people think it is so that dirt cannot dim the light. This is only partly true, and in fact, this wouldn’t be a particularly crucial concern with xenon lights, which have such a very high light output. The main reason for the requirement is that dirt can impair the optical features of the headlamp and cause glare. Incidentally, headlamps which are only slightly soiled cause a stronger glare, and of course the brighter the headlamp, the stronger the glare.

https://www.carlightblog.com/2013/10/22 ... er-system/

It appears it's now required for any halogen or LED lights over 2000 lumens (dipped beam only).

Author:  Hearthly [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 15:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Why are headlamp washers even a thing anyway? It seems to me like an answer in search of a question.

Remember in the 80s when posh cars even had little mini wipers on the headlamps? I think that was just something they did to make the car look more expensive and charge an extra few hundred quid for, until they could start fitting CD players or something.

My Type-R didn't have any sort of washer system for the headlamps and never once did I think 'Oooohhh those headlamps could do with a wash', or certainly nothing that wasn't sorted by the normal washing of the car.

I call shenanigans.

Author:  myp [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 15:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Hearthly wrote:
Why are headlamp washers even a thing anyway? It seems to me like an answer in search of a question.

Remember in the 80s when posh cars even had little mini wipers on the headlamps? I think that was just something they did to make the car look more expensive and charge an extra few hundred quid for, until they could start fitting CD players or something.

My Type-R didn't have any sort of washer system for the headlamps and never once did I think 'Oooohhh those headlamps could do with a wash', or certainly nothing that wasn't sorted by the normal washing of the car.

I call shenanigans.

Seriously?

Author:  Mr Dave [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 16:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Lonewolves wrote:
Hearthly wrote:
Why are headlamp washers even a thing anyway? It seems to me like an answer in search of a question.

Remember in the 80s when posh cars even had little mini wipers on the headlamps? I think that was just something they did to make the car look more expensive and charge an extra few hundred quid for, until they could start fitting CD players or something.

My Type-R didn't have any sort of washer system for the headlamps and never once did I think 'Oooohhh those headlamps could do with a wash', or certainly nothing that wasn't sorted by the normal washing of the car.

I call shenanigans.

Seriously?

He has you on ignore.

As do we all.

Author:  Hearthly [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 16:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Somehow I managed to post my reply without having ingested myp's further posts on the matter.

The last one I saw before replying was the one about his Clio being the same.

Author:  myp [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 16:06 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Amusingly the washers stopped working on the Clio - when I took it to the garage pre-MOT he said not to worry as my car was old enough for the law not to apply. I laughed as he passed my MOT because why would they put washers on them if it didn't need it?

Author:  Grim... [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 16:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Well, same reason they put headlights that "look" around bends on the car? It helps.

Author:  Dr Zoidberg [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 19:13 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

If you can find someone on the island with VCDS, they can adjust the washer frequency or completely disable it for you.

Author:  Hearthly [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 19:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Dr Zoidberg wrote:
If you can find someone on the island with VCDS, they can adjust the washer frequency or completely disable it for you.


A couple of mates at work both have VAGCOMs which I always think sounds rude and is also another name for VCDS.

I do need to go round and see one of them as one of the other things I want to do is enable the bluetooth functionality on the MMI.

Apparently all 3G MMI systems have the bluetooth dongle thingy in them, but Audi didn't enable it unless the original purchaser specified Bluetooth for an extra £800 or whatever. As such, you can actually enable it for free if you have your VAGCOM doohickey. It's just a couple of options in a menu somewhere.

I may get the washer frequency changed as well. Every 10 zaps like in the Merc sounds good.

Author:  ApplePieOfDestiny [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 19:57 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Nobody ever talks about why we have headlamp washers on cars. It's like some sort of big secret no one will ever contemplate. We should discuss and challenge this system.

Author:  Dr Zoidberg [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 20:25 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Hearthly wrote:
Dr Zoidberg wrote:
If you can find someone on the island with VCDS, they can adjust the washer frequency or completely disable it for you.


A couple of mates at work both have VAGCOMs which I always think sounds rude and is also another name for VCDS.

I do need to go round and see one of them as one of the other things I want to do is enable the bluetooth functionality on the MMI.

Apparently all 3G MMI systems have the bluetooth dongle thingy in them, but Audi didn't enable it unless the original purchaser specified Bluetooth for an extra £800 or whatever. As such, you can actually enable it for free if you have your VAGCOM doohickey. It's just a couple of options in a menu somewhere.

I may get the washer frequency changed as well. Every 10 zaps like in the Merc sounds good.


I've had a few things enabled and tweaked on my Octavia. Nothing worth £800 but you can certainly save a fair bit of cash that way.

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 14:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

According to the Porsche rumour-mill I have one ear permanently tuned to ( :D ), the RennSport Cayman is - fucking finally - about to become reality (at least in minute numbers to keep the polar bear huggers happy). I'm told the mighty 718 GT4-RS is going to have the glorious 4.0 litre 991.2 GT3-RS naturally aspirated engine (albeit not quite as glorious as the motorsport-derived, legendary "Mezger" engine it replaced due to some emissions BS or other) - and the 911R's re-engineered six speed manual gearbox - shoehorned in. Price will be at least £90,000, but it'll be a vicious Ferrari killer.

Shame most of them will rocket to about £300,000 in value and never be used in anger. Me? I'd keep mine forever and use it as my daily driver, but then, I'm a Porsche enthusiast, not some arsehole investor. As for Porsche UK, they'd never let the great unwashed like me anywhere near their tiny allocation, either, so that's that then. Oh well, I'll be admiring from afar.

I might try writing direct to the factory, though, offering a guaranteed "no sell" contract on my part. Do they want people to drive their masterpieces, or not?
Viper Green, please!


Here's a link. Looks like the brute-of-brutes "Widowmaker" GT2-RS is incoming, too - rear wheel drive natch, but this incarnation with 700-odd bhp and barely road legal slick tyres. Yikes, that'd be an interesting proposition in the ice, what a nice, forgiving car I'm sure it is. (Feck me, the rwd mere GTS is bad boy enough, the back squirms and shuffles all over the road in the dry and she wants to kill you... these Porkers bite)

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/porsche/ca ... -the-cards

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 14:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Btw, here's a non-RS GT4 in Viper Green.
Filth.

Author:  myp [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 14:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Not a fan of the Cayman, I have to be honest.

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 15:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

What don't you like about it?
I'm totally biased, obv, but I absolutely ADORE it ( :D ), not just in the looks - to my eyes it's an impossibly exotic, beautifully made, mid-engined piece of exotica that can be had for the same sort of money as a low to mid spec 3-series or A4 diesel (FFS), and in terms of its raison d'être - handling - you have to spend six figures to get better (Lotus Exige and Caterhams et al possibly excepted, but this is a car you can use as a daily driver, not some leaking Norfolk shed or kit car track curiosity)

I honestly, honestly cannot see what's not to like. Not just like, either, but love. But hey, tastes vary for sure. :)

Author:  myp [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 15:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

It's not a 911. :)

Author:  DavPaz [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 15:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

It's vile, but to each their own.

Author:  MaliA [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 15:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

I've got a pair of shoes like that.

But: red and green should never be seen.

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 15:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Lonewolves wrote:
It's not a 911. :)


:shrug:
Fair do's mate; unless you're in the habit of having to transport two very small kids in the tiny rear seats, the Cayman is much the better car - lighter, much cheaper, better handling, similar performance. Sometimes people say to me the old Clarkson line "you got a Cayman because you couldn't afford a 911" and I always say "yup, you're right I can't afford one, or at least the 911 I would want", which stymies them somewhat.

If it wasn't for the Boxster/Cayman, I honestly don't know what cars I'd have been driving these last 10 years or so. But these Porsches aren't for everyone, far from it; most people would spend that sort of money on a much faster (on paper) sledgehammer V8 Merc AMG or somesuch, not a little rapier like the Cayman. More fool them.

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 15:23 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

DavPaz wrote:
It's vile, but to each their own.


... A Cayman GT4 is 'vile'?
Wow. Oh well, more left for me. :D

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 15:25 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

MaliA wrote:
I've got a pair of shoes like that.

But: red and green should never be seen.


No, you're right, dude.
The Cayman GT4 is not MaliCool. :D

Author:  MaliA [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 15:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Cavey wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
It's not a 911. :)


:shrug:
Fair do's mate; unless you're in the habit of having to transport two very small kids in the tiny rear seats, the Cayman is much the better car - lighter, much cheaper, better handling, similar performance. Sometimes people say to me the old Clarkson line "you got a Cayman because you couldn't afford a 911" and I always say "yup, you're right I can't afford one, or at least the 911 I would want", which stymies them somewhat.

If it wasn't for the Boxster/Cayman, I honestly don't know what cars I'd have been driving these last 10 years or so.


I think the two are quite different, though? A rear engined 2+2, conpared to a 2 seater mid engined thing. I think tbe Cayman is the prettier. It looks svelte and frisky . The 911s look plump and middle aged.

Author:  MaliA [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 15:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Cavey wrote:
MaliA wrote:
I've got a pair of shoes like that.

But: red and green should never be seen.


No, you're right, dude.
The Cayman GT4 is not MaliCool. :D


Change the brake caliper color to orange, add black zebra stripes* and we're there.

* Some guy i see fairly regularly on the road has had his A3 wrapped in black and white dazzle camoflage. That would be a tricky insurance claim "how was I meant to know which way it was going, that's why I hit it?"

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 15:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

MaliA wrote:
Cavey wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
It's not a 911. :)


:shrug:
Fair do's mate; unless you're in the habit of having to transport two very small kids in the tiny rear seats, the Cayman is much the better car - lighter, much cheaper, better handling, similar performance. Sometimes people say to me the old Clarkson line "you got a Cayman because you couldn't afford a 911" and I always say "yup, you're right I can't afford one, or at least the 911 I would want", which stymies them somewhat.

If it wasn't for the Boxster/Cayman, I honestly don't know what cars I'd have been driving these last 10 years or so.


I think the two are quite different, though? A rear engined 2+2, conpared to a 2 seater mid engined thing. I think tbe Cayman is the prettier. It looks svelte and frisky . The 911s look plump and middle aged.


I broadly agree (unless we're talking about the "super" 911s like the GT3, GT3-RS or 911R, but in that case you're spending £120k+ even assuming Porsche will let you have one, which they won't. 911Rs on the secondhand market go for £700,000. I wish I was joking :( ... people sure hate that turbo engine, huh)

It's a cachet/snob-factor thing, I think. To the layperson, 911 is more expensive and iconic than the Cayman, so it's better, right?
Wrong

Author:  DavPaz [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 15:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Cavey wrote:
911Rs on the secondhand market go for £700,000.


8) :blown:

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 15:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

DavPaz wrote:
Cavey wrote:
911Rs on the secondhand market go for £700,000.


8) :blown:


Yup.
They're worth at least SIX TIMES their £130,000 list price - that's how much petrolheads HATE eco-turbos.
A half a million quid premium is a lot to pay - but if I had millions in the bank, I'd pay it. What price that soaring, spine-tingling 9,000 RPM flat-six hollow wail?

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-c ... 31-million

Author:  MaliA [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 15:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Christ, a 996 is less than a year's nursery.

Author:  MaliA [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 15:57 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Cavey wrote:
MaliA wrote:
I've got a pair of shoes like that.

But: red and green should never be seen.


No, you're right, dude.
The Cayman GT4 is not MaliCool. :D



http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/ ... obcid=soc3



That is.

Author:  myp [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 15:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

MaliA wrote:
Christ, a 996 is less than a year's nursery.

Until you factor in running costs and repairs.

I've thought about it, believe me.

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 16:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

MaliA wrote:
Christ, a 996 is less than a year's nursery.


I wouldn't mate - self destruct engines, hideously expensive to sort (a new engine, basically). Porsche has long since stopped paying out for these.
Sadly, the only safe choice is an old aircooled one (993 or earlier, and therefore megabucks), or an relatively new second-gen 997.2 (increasingly very expensive, a 6 year old GTS sells for almost as much as it cost brand new FFS, and the prices are only going one way, still, because electric steering and turbo engines BS = shit to drive)

For my money, a second gen Mark 1 (987.2) Cayman S or Boxster S is the way forward. But even a good one of these is now £30k minimum.

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 16:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

MaliA wrote:
Cavey wrote:
MaliA wrote:
I've got a pair of shoes like that.

But: red and green should never be seen.


No, you're right, dude.
The Cayman GT4 is not MaliCool. :D



http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/ ... obcid=soc3



That is.


People get ever so sniffy about it (why FFS?), but I love 924s, 944s and especially 968s (and the Clubsport 968 is awesome, my bruv had one for years and it was filth)

But man, not in yellow. :p

Author:  myp [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 16:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

I think I'll stick to my pretend one. Only cost me £9

Author:  GazChap [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 16:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

928 or go home, IMO.

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 16:41 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

GazChap wrote:
928 or go home, IMO.


Not my bag TBH. A bit of a big, old, rather fugly '70s relic for me. But, I can see why some people like 'em, it's an interesting, marmite sort of car. :)

Author:  Hearthly [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 16:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

I posted an article many pages back about the 996, apparently they're not quite as awful in the self-destruction stakes as they're sometimes painted, and later revisions fixed the issues. Also there are (relatively-ish) inexpensive preventative measures you can take to stop them going pop too.

IIRC it was the early 3.4s that were really bad, the later 3.4s were better, and the final 3.6 iteration was fine.

In fact here it is - viewtopic.php?p=898384#p898384

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 16:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

"It's only the minority that have had problems"

Yeah, right. If only that were true. :roll:

Hearthly, not being funny and all that, but I am a Porsche guy; I mix with people who run these things on a weekly basis. Trust me - without wishing to get into a google link joust with you, the problem is, unfortunately, rather more deep seated than you appear to be suggesting. Stick to errant reversing sensors and haunted MP3 players old bean. :D

(I am, of course, excluding any GT3, GT2 (or GT1!) because these all have the Mezger engine as previously mentioned)

Author:  Hearthly [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 17:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Well that's me told then.

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 17:11 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

:shrug:
Look, us sad old gits discuss little else - because the early Cayman (which is much less unreliable than the 996) makes for a great track car except for this very issue.
Quite a few of 'em have been bitten with this.

It's a bit like someone telling you that you could win on the fruities by letting the reels just spin if, after a losing nudge with two symbols on the winline, you get a hold. :D Don't believe everything you read on the web. :)

Author:  Hearthly [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 18:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Well all the stats I've seen put the horrible failure rate at around 10%, and this is on the dodgiest of the early 3.4s, with the 2001 revision of the 3.4 being better and the later 3.6 pretty much sorted.

Admittedly bad enough odds that I'd be put off one, but considering the price you can snag one for, possibly worth taking a punt on.

The alternative is buying one that's had the remedial work already done to it, I suppose. Or a replacement engine, assuming the replacements are the ones that don't fail.

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 19:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

I'm not sure what "stats" you've "seen", but I'm talking about the collective (albeit anecdotal) opinions of Porsche enthusiasts at countless Oulton meets; guys who actually track and race these things and who, if you snapped them in half, would probably bear the Porsche logo like a stick of rock. I should note, also, that the cross section of vehicles spans from a 996 GT2, various GT3s and umpteen Caymans, all the way through to 968s and 944s. I myself am a whippersnapper only on my 4th Porsche, some of these guys have had 20, and used them vastly more intensively.

As I've said, this subject matter comes up again and again; I'm not going to pretend to understand the mechanics of the (multiple) problems underpinning the issues but if these guys say they're "undetectable and can strike - in an engine-lunching kind of way - at any time", and has actually happened to some of them, well, I'm gonna listen. That's me, I guess.

But hey, I'm sure your armchair-based enquiries count for so much more. Seriously mate, why do I bother. You're never gonna change. :)

Author:  markg [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 19:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Hearthly wrote:
Well all the stats I've seen put the horrible failure rate at around 10%, and this is on the dodgiest of the early 3.4s, with the 2001 revision of the 3.4 being better and the later 3.6 pretty much sorted.

That's 10% so far. It might be 20% by now. It might also be 50% or more of the cars that get used properly. Some of these cars probably hardly get driven.

Author:  Zardoz [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 20:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Almost all Porsches are driven by very infirm old men. Short runs out in dry weather to stock up on Werthingtons.

Author:  Zardoz [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 20:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

You want a GT-R really.

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 20:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Zardoz wrote:
You want a GT-R really.


Ugh. Very impressive and all that, but I *hate* them mate, the very opposite of everything I love about cars. Just an unfeasibly fast, hulking great computer-driven turbo-fest of a car, all grip, traction, immense turbo push, 4wd and traction control intervention. You can steer these things with your little finger (what is it about Japanese cars, don't they have any arm strength or something..? They all seem to be so horribly over-assisted).

If you want to be the quickest guy on the road, get a GT-R.

If you want to actually drive the car yourself and enjoy it once the initial 5 min rush of being *that* fast has worn off, get a good ol' analogue Cayman.

You're right about the Werthers though of course. :D

Author:  Hearthly [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 21:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Cavey wrote:
I'm not sure what "stats" you've "seen", but I'm talking about the collective (albeit anecdotal) opinions of Porsche enthusiasts at countless Oulton meets; guys who actually track and race these things and who, if you snapped them in half, would probably bear the Porsche logo like a stick of rock. I should note, also, that the cross section of vehicles spans from a 996 GT2, various GT3s and umpteen Caymans, all the way through to 968s and 944s. I myself am a whippersnapper only on my 4th Porsche, some of these guys have had 20, and used them vastly more intensively.

As I've said, this subject matter comes up again and again; I'm not going to pretend to understand the mechanics of the (multiple) problems underpinning the issues but if these guys say they're "undetectable and can strike - in an engine-lunching kind of way - at any time", and has actually happened to some of them, well, I'm gonna listen. That's me, I guess.

But hey, I'm sure your armchair-based enquiries count for so much more. Seriously mate, why do I bother. You're never gonna change. :)


Well only a fool would argue with the science of word-of-mouth reports from men who actually have the Porsche logo running through their bodies like sticks of rock. Irrefutable proof.

Your crab linguine crits me for 30K. Sir, I concede.

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 21:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

...Really?

Man, you sound bitter. I miss the old you.
(Blimey, that poor old crab linguine has much to answer for eh. What is it with you and crustaceans, or bivalve molluscs for that matter? Is now a bad time to mention I like native rock oysters with a touch of Tabasco or shallot vinegar, washed down with a lovely, dry glass of chilled Vintage Moet - or even just a spot of Lobster Thermidor perhaps? :roll: )

Author:  GazChap [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 22:33 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

Have you driven a GT-R, Cavey? And I mean properly driven one in anger, not just taking one up the road?

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 23:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits

GazChap wrote:
Have you driven a GT-R, Cavey? And I mean properly driven one in anger, not just taking one up the road?


Gotta be honest, it was only a "taking it up the road" (about 2-3 miles with some pretty amazeballs overtaking warp-speed), and the particular example had been massively modified with 820bhp :)

Later that day we smoked a GSX-R1000 at the lights. 2-up, in _a_four_seater_car_. Lulz.
Don't get me wrong, Gaz, the engineer in me loves these things, and man alive, this thing has presence. It's a beast, and no mistake; made my Boxster S-Black look like it had a 1.0 A-series under the bonnet.

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