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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 23:57 
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BikNorton wrote:
@doctor Glyndwr again, where the hell on the real average consumer internet are microsecond client-client pings achievable?

The game client is in the cloud, Bik. The consumer internet is no longer part of the picture for the game client talking to other game clients.

Game server -> game client -> stream server -> stream client

Consumer internet is the third "->" only.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 23:59 
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The humans sitting in their living roomd are in the cloud?


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 0:00 
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What is happening?! I don't know any clearer way to write this!


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 0:02 
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I guess I'm not seeing how being in my home pushing buttons on a physical controller and seeing the results to decide what buttons to push next is an entirely server-in-cloud based exercise.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 0:02 
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BikNorton wrote:
The humans sitting in their living roomd are in the cloud?
No but instead of your console having to get information about the position of every other player you're just getting the stream and sending controller inputs. So everyone sees the exact same version of events.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 0:04 
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At different offsets to everyone else? Or is everyone slowed down to the same level of nausea as the most nauseous person?

Or does the game matching only accept ~10% vomit-comet-compatible competition?


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 0:07 
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BikNorton wrote:
I guess I'm not seeing how being in my home pushing buttons on a physical controller and seeing the results to decide what buttons to push next is an entirely server-in-cloud based exercise.

It isn't.

But in a multiplayer realtime game, when lots of server decisions need to be made to mediate between different game clients, those game clients all have (essentially) infinite bandwidth and zero latency to talk to each other.

(Note I am talking about game clients here, which are running in the cloud. Not the streaming client that is running in your house.)

So for example, lag as we know it today disappears. You should never see someone teleporting around a level, with your bullets passing through where you thought they were, because that's a function of slow connections between your game and their game. And all those connections between your game and their game are no longer on the internet, instead they're within the data centre.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 0:09 
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You're talking about (not prediction, in case you saw pre-edit) peer updates, I'm talking about "holy fuck I pressed fire at least an hour and a half ago".


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 0:10 
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TheVision wrote:
I imagine it will be with money.

Title


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 0:11 
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BikNorton wrote:
You're talking about (not prediction, in case you saw pre-edit) peer updates, I'm taking about "holy fuck I pressed fire at least an hour and a half ago".

But that's nothing to do with the "microsecond" quote you started down this road with.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 0:12 
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That was your response to my wondering how latency isn't an issue.

Which now I look back, a) I could have expressed more clearly and b) may have been.... Hoho, latency-related


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 0:20 
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Rude Belittler

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Anyway, in addition to latency issues and payment issues, what about save games, and what happens if licensing issues cause a game you've paid for and have a 100 hour save file to be pulled from the system?


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 0:22 
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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 0:23 
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What if I only play battlefield these days, and don't want any new games?


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 0:23 
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MaliA wrote:
What if everyone wants to be Goro?

Maggie will have finally found something less popular than poll tax?


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:03 
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Pundabaya wrote:
Anyway, in addition to latency issues and payment issues, what about save games, and what happens if licensing issues cause a game you've paid for and have a 100 hour save file to be pulled from the system?


There are going to be loads of issues like this.

Quick example, I bought OutRun2 Coast2Coast on Steam, many years ago, long before Sega lost the licence for Ferrari. (Probably 2007/2008, come to think about it.)

You can't buy the game anymore, and haven't been able to for years, because Sega don't have the Ferrari licence anymore. However, the game is still in my Steam library and I can cheerfully install the game on any PC that has Steam installed and is logged in with my account.

How is something like that going to work on a streaming platform.

Or Borderlands 2, which I recently reinstalled and started playing again. I last played it back in 2013, but it's still there in my library, still reinstalls, and is still playable. (And retrieved my cloud save from 2013 so I got all my characters, BadAss Rank, TVHM/UVHM progression etc back.)

We're all very well versed with shit disappearing off Netflix and Amazon Prime all the time, how is this streaming platform going to work when it comes to retention?

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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:30 
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Hearthly wrote:
Pundabaya wrote:
Anyway, in addition to latency issues and payment issues, what about save games, and what happens if licensing issues cause a game you've paid for and have a 100 hour save file to be pulled from the system?


There are going to be loads of issues like this.

Quick example, I bought OutRun2 Coast2Coast on Steam, many years ago, long before Sega lost the licence for Ferrari. (Probably 2007/2008, come to think about it.)

You can't buy the game anymore, and haven't been able to for years, because Sega don't have the Ferrari licence anymore. However, the game is still in my Steam library and I can cheerfully install the game on any PC that has Steam installed and is logged in with my account.

How is something like that going to work on a streaming platform.

Or Borderlands 2, which I recently reinstalled and started pla


Using Steam to provide an opposite example - I have Typing of the Dead:Overkill in my Steam library and I went to reinstall it the other day, only to find out that it doesn't work under Windows 10 (or it's something specific to the graphics card in the PC I'm using). So although I own it, I can't play it anymore. A streaming service might offer a consistent platform to avoid that kind of thing.

EDIT - I'm not particularly for or against Stadia - I'm just annoyed that I can't play some of my Steam games anymore :)

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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:33 
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I imagine it will work exactly netflix.
Pay X amount a month, get access to all the games they have, lose access when you stop paying, lose access if they lose the rights.

It was seen as a blocker for TV and film streaming services too, turns out users don't care.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:49 
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Trooper wrote:
It was seen as a blocker for TV and film streaming services too, turns out users don't care.


Do they not? I certainly care about it. In fact, it's turned out to be so bad that I've started taking 'backup copies' of stuff I like on Netflix and Amazon Prime, as a hedge against the day it ceases to be available.

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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:52 
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ugvm'er at heart...

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Hearthly wrote:
Trooper wrote:
It was seen as a blocker for TV and film streaming services too, turns out users don't care.


Do they not? I certainly care about it. In fact, it's turned out to be so bad that I've started taking 'backup copies' of stuff I like on Netflix and Amazon Prime, as a hedge against the day it ceases to be available.


No, they don't, hence the rise and rise of the streaming services.

Sure, a small amount of individual people may care, but the vast majority don't.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:55 
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It doesn't bother me, as long I don't lose access to something that I've explicitly paid for.

If this service is roughly £10 a month for a curated selection of games, with an option to buy them if they ever go out of the curation, I can't see the issue.

There will always be people keeping archive, whether it be legally or "taking 'backup copies' of stuff I like". A friend of mine has dozen of Terabytes of old saturn and dreamcast games that he has no intention of playing. He just likes the idea of having them.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:03 
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DavPaz wrote:
A friend of mine has dozen of Terabytes of old saturn and dreamcast games that he has no intention of playing. He just likes the idea of having them.


I don't remember ever telling you about my stash?


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:06 
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TheVision wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
A friend of mine has dozen of Terabytes of old saturn and dreamcast games that he has no intention of playing. He just likes the idea of having them.


I don't remember ever telling you about my stash?

It's pretty obvious bud, just above your beard :)


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:16 
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Hearthly wrote:
Trooper wrote:
It was seen as a blocker for TV and film streaming services too, turns out users don't care.


Do they not? I certainly care about it. In fact, it's turned out to be so bad that I've started taking 'backup copies' of stuff I like on Netflix and Amazon Prime, as a hedge against the day it ceases to be available.

Obviously some users might care and this service might not be for them. For me though if it all ends up competitively priced then I won't care, I hardly ever go back and play old games and when I do I usually just quickly remember the irritation or ennui that lead me to stop playing it in the first place.

One thing though, I love my VR hat and whatever voodoo they do to get the latency down to acceptable levels for pancake games I don't see streaming VR being a realistic proposition. Which is a shame really because VR with masses of computing horsepower on tap could be amazing.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:21 
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Everyone will have their own PSVR data centres next year mate, don't worry.

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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:25 
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Early shot of a production ready PS6 prototype here:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:29 
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Grim... wrote:
OnLive worked really well, and Sony bought it and put the important bits into PSNow.

I'm not convinced that counts as "failing".


They didn't, PS Now is based on technology bought from a completely different company called Gaikai:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaikai


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:30 
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Trooper wrote:
I imagine it will work exactly netflix.
Pay X amount a month, get access to all the games they have, lose access when you stop paying, lose access if they lose the rights.

It was seen as a blocker for TV and film streaming services too, turns out users don't care.


There's a bit of a difference between "Oh Netflix has lost the rights to The Wire, oh well I was up to series X episode Y *buys the DVD*" and "WTF! I was just about to finish Final Fantasy 7 after 70 hours, I was just about to go into the Northern Crater, and now it's gone and I'll have to start over if I buy another version!"


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:34 
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I'm going to go on out a limb and suggest that this will hardly ever happen. Getting a game to run on it is not the same as just adding another title to Netflix and I imagine that they will anticipate that if games keep disappearing all the time then people will get fucked off with it and so they'll make sure that whatever contracts are in place reflect this.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:38 
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The tedious thing about this of course is that instead of having console exclusives, it'll just be service exclusives. It's unlikely you'll be able to play Forza on a google 'box' or Spiderman on Microsoft 'box'.

Same old story.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:39 
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Hearthly wrote:
Quick example, I bought OutRun2 Coast2Coast on Steam, many years ago, long before Sega lost the licence for Ferrari. (Probably 2007/2008, come to think about it.)

You can't buy the game anymore, and haven't been able to for years, because Sega don't have the Ferrari licence anymore. However, the game is still in my Steam library and I can cheerfully install the game on any PC that has Steam installed and is logged in with my account.

How is something like that going to work on a streaming platform.
Why wouldn't it work the exact same way? Losing the licence[1] blocks new sales, it doesn't block people who have already bought it from continuing to play it. Setting up the contract between (in your example) Sega and Ferrari in any other way would be deeply stupid.

[1] Which doesn't actually happen very often in games -- can you name a second example? I can't.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:39 
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One other thing I suppose that might be a bother is if this requires the sort of infrastructure that only a Google can realistically provide then it could become unhealthy for the market as a whole.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:40 
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Pundabaya wrote:
Trooper wrote:
I imagine it will work exactly netflix.
Pay X amount a month, get access to all the games they have, lose access when you stop paying, lose access if they lose the rights.

It was seen as a blocker for TV and film streaming services too, turns out users don't care.


There's a bit of a difference between "Oh Netflix has lost the rights to The Wire, oh well I was up to series X episode Y *buys the DVD*" and "WTF! I was just about to finish Final Fantasy 7 after 70 hours, I was just about to go into the Northern Crater, and now it's gone and I'll have to start over if I buy another version!"


To us, yes. To the majority of the gaming public who just play Fifa/Madden/CoD/Fortnite/etc... a few times a week...


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:42 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Hearthly wrote:
Quick example, I bought OutRun2 Coast2Coast on Steam, many years ago, long before Sega lost the licence for Ferrari. (Probably 2007/2008, come to think about it.)

You can't buy the game anymore, and haven't been able to for years, because Sega don't have the Ferrari licence anymore. However, the game is still in my Steam library and I can cheerfully install the game on any PC that has Steam installed and is logged in with my account.

How is something like that going to work on a streaming platform.
Why wouldn't it work the exact same way? Losing the licence[1] blocks new sales, it doesn't block people who have already bought it from continuing to play it. Setting up the contract between (in your example) Sega and Ferrari in any other way would be deeply stupid.

[1] Which doesn't actually happen very often in games -- can you name a second example? I can't.

There was a game on PSN that a bloke at work played quite a bit, he even bought DLC for it and stuff and then it got pulled. Can't remember the name but I thought it was some sort of superhero fighting game or something. I don't know for sure if it was over licensing or if the developers just went bust or stopped supporting it.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:43 
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markg wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Hearthly wrote:
Quick example, I bought OutRun2 Coast2Coast on Steam, many years ago, long before Sega lost the licence for Ferrari. (Probably 2007/2008, come to think about it.)

You can't buy the game anymore, and haven't been able to for years, because Sega don't have the Ferrari licence anymore. However, the game is still in my Steam library and I can cheerfully install the game on any PC that has Steam installed and is logged in with my account.

How is something like that going to work on a streaming platform.
Why wouldn't it work the exact same way? Losing the licence[1] blocks new sales, it doesn't block people who have already bought it from continuing to play it. Setting up the contract between (in your example) Sega and Ferrari in any other way would be deeply stupid.

[1] Which doesn't actually happen very often in games -- can you name a second example? I can't.

There was a game on PSN that a bloke at work played quite a bit, he even bought DLC for it and stuff and then it got pulled. Can't remember the name but I thought it was some sort of superhero fighting game or something. I don't know for sure if it was over licensing or if the developers just went bust or stopped supporting it.


Was it Scott Pilgrim? Or there was a Turtles game that I can't remember the name of that had similar happen to it. Also, didn't Afterburner Climax do something similar? You can't buy that anymore and that was a great game.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:44 
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Isn't it often music rights expiring that gets games pulled? The often appear in an other form though. The Tony Hawk games for example.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:46 
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markg wrote:
One other thing I suppose that might be a bother is if this requires the sort of infrastructure that only a Google can realistically provide then it could become unhealthy for the market as a whole.

That's deeply unlikely IMO. Remember that Microsoft are another player in this market, and they have Azure, which is going to be just as capable of this feat as Google is.

Meanwhile, you have Sony and EA. They don't have the same levels of cloud server infrastructure expertise or deployment. But they have much better pipelines for getting games onto the service. A game developer needs to put in some work to spin up on Stadia, whereas they need to do nothing more to ship on PSNow than they do to ship on PS4. And EA, of course, could choose to make its own games or bits of games exclusive to its cloud offering.

So that's four credible players, which is more than we've had viable console platforms our entire lives.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:48 
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True enough, I suppose Amazon too.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:49 
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TheVision wrote:
markg wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Hearthly wrote:
Quick example, I bought OutRun2 Coast2Coast on Steam, many years ago, long before Sega lost the licence for Ferrari. (Probably 2007/2008, come to think about it.)

You can't buy the game anymore, and haven't been able to for years, because Sega don't have the Ferrari licence anymore. However, the game is still in my Steam library and I can cheerfully install the game on any PC that has Steam installed and is logged in with my account.

How is something like that going to work on a streaming platform.
Why wouldn't it work the exact same way? Losing the licence[1] blocks new sales, it doesn't block people who have already bought it from continuing to play it. Setting up the contract between (in your example) Sega and Ferrari in any other way would be deeply stupid.

[1] Which doesn't actually happen very often in games -- can you name a second example? I can't.

There was a game on PSN that a bloke at work played quite a bit, he even bought DLC for it and stuff and then it got pulled. Can't remember the name but I thought it was some sort of superhero fighting game or something. I don't know for sure if it was over licensing or if the developers just went bust or stopped supporting it.


Was it Scott Pilgrim? Or there was a Turtles game that I can't remember the name of that had similar happen to it. Also, didn't Afterburner Climax do something similar? You can't buy that anymore and that was a great game.

Pretty sure this was a Marvel thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:55 
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DavPaz wrote:
Isn't it often music rights expiring that gets games pulled? The often appear in an other form though. The Tony Hawk games for example.


Crazy Taxi too. Without the official soundtrack though, it's not worth playing IMO.

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

So that's four credible players, which is more than we've had viable console platforms our entire lives.


I'm probably stretching the term viable here but I remember a time when the N64, Playstation, 3DO, Saturn, Jaguar and CDi were all vying for our attention.... and yes, I do have all of these (apart from a CDi)


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:58 
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TheVision wrote:
I'm probably stretching the term viable here but I remember a time when the N64, Playstation, 3DO, Saturn, Jaguar and CDi were all vying for our attention.... and yes, I do have all of these (apart from a CDi)

Are you the first person in history to suggest the Jaguar and the 3DO were viable consoles?!


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:01 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
TheVision wrote:
I'm probably stretching the term viable here but I remember a time when the N64, Playstation, 3DO, Saturn, Jaguar and CDi were all vying for our attention.... and yes, I do have all of these (apart from a CDi)

Are you the first person in history to suggest the Jaguar and the 3DO were viable consoles?!


No.

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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:49 
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TheVision wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
Isn't it often music rights expiring that gets games pulled? The often appear in an other form though. The Tony Hawk games for example.


Crazy Taxi too. Without the official soundtrack though, it's not worth playing IMO.


Other games that had music licence issues include:

Grand Theft Auto (IV, I think. And maybe Vice City on some platforms) too. Music patched out.
And Super Meat Boy. Music had to be completely redone.
And etc

And the music for Sonic 3 is the main reason why it hasn’t had a rerelease thanks to licensing issues too. Thanks (“Michael Jackson” - Ed).

Ooh, Alan Wake was removed from Steam for a while thanks to expired music licences.

EDIT: Turns out it was GTA San Andreas and Vice City. Mafia 1 was also affected.

EDIT 2: It was also GTA IV. I thought as much.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:54 
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I guess PT counts, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:57 
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Lego: The Hobbit & Lego: Lord of the Rings were also pulled from digital stores.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:59 
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Holy shit, Transformers: Devestation (remember the Platinum games one - which was pretty fucking cool?) that got pulled from digital stores 1-2 years after release.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:00 
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And Marvel: Ultimate Alliance.

I’m bored of looking now. Carry on.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:02 
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Satsuma wrote:
And Marvel: Ultimate Alliance.



I always read this as Marvel: Ultimate Dalliance, which would be a much more interesting thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:03 
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Prince of Fops

Joined: 14th May, 2009
Posts: 2745
Grim... wrote:
I guess PT counts, too.


Someone at work was telling me that PS4s with a PT installation go for £1000.

But he does also believe in aliens.


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 Post subject: Re: Google Stadia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:05 
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Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 15231
Tell him he can buy mine for £600. There's a quick £400 in it for him.


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