The Last Jedi - spoiler

KovacsC · **Posted:** Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:29

Grim... wrote:

KovacsC wrote:

Like Luke not leaving foot prints in the salt

Which contradicts the physical weight of the dice ornament he bought back.

I liked the film, but it was just... Messy. And the "Empire can't shoot straight" thing is wearing fucking thin.

Also: isn't the Falcon meant to be considerably bigger than the TIE fighters that were chasing it?

Good point about the dice.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:49

I think if I have one concern from the movie, it’s that they are very much doing them one by one without a unified vision behind them. Whilst this allows for the individual writer/director to really make the film their own, it means you can get retcons and things that look important becoming meaningless.

For instance, in 9 JJ Abrams could bring Snoke back, bring Luke back, give Rey important parents and so on. There were parts that Abrams clearly wanted to build on that Johnson didn’t. And while I think that most of the decisions in TLJ regarding direction of plot were solid and I like them, it does make for a kind of disjoint, though I also agree with the comedy rant Kov posted.

KovacsC · **Posted:** Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:05

I listened to am an interview with the director and he worked with JJ to do the initial out line with TLJ, i don't think they will bring the dead back, as the fans would implode.

GazChap · **Posted:** Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:49

Went to see it last night. Found myself getting a bit bored about 2/3rds of the way through, but tbh that's pretty standard for Star Wars films (for me)

Further thoughts (mostly negative, unfortunately)

ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!

The bombers appear out of fucking nowhere at the start (when Poe is doing the cannon run) - how the fuck did the FO not spot them?
Bombs dropping in space? And laser fire arcing as if affected by gravity?
Leia somehow manages to survive in a vacuum long enough to pull herself back into the ship? I thought for sure that they were going to use that scene to kill her off because Carrie Fisher died, but no...
Benicio Del Toro yet again playing someone with a speech impediment - and also knows the rebel plan despite not having anyway of doing so
Snoke's guards are fucking useless, and just keep on coming
Too much forced humour that didn't really work for me
Luke's weird sacrifice at the end - would have been much more powerful if he'd flown there in his X-Wing and fucked shit up
Doesn't make sense for Laura Dern to keep the plan secret from everyone, at all. I half expected there to be a reveal that she was a First Order spy deliberately fucking up the rebels.
The audio (lack of it, specifically) and the visual when the cruiser hyperspaces through Snoke's ship was fucking amazing
I thought the film was going to get Kylo Ren to suggest to Rey that they join forces and start a new order of both dark and light, which I thought would have been really interesting but ultimately went nowhere
Finn says to Poe near the end "Luke's facing their army alone, we have to help him" even though, to their eyes, he's literally just brushed off a HUGE barrage of attacks from said army without a single scratch.
Finn and Rose's plotline was ultimately pointless and could have been dramatically cut down

Despite all that, it was enjoyable enough. I maintain that I really don't get why everyone creams their pants over Star Wars movies though.

Grim... · **Posted:** Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:09

GazChap wrote:

The audio (lack of it, specifically) and the visual when the cruiser hyperspaces through Snoke's ship was fucking amazing

Yes, indeed - that was this movie's equivalent of the "Vadar arrives and starts fucking shit up" moment from Rogue One. Although it opens up a massive plot hole.

Jem · **Posted:** Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:47

I am ambivalent to Star Wars generally so obviously wasn't expecting to be super thrilled and exciting, but I thought the film was meh.

The only bit that made me smile was the

ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!

"little bit too long" hand holding/"twinkle in the eye" moment between leia & vice admiral holdo - suggesting a bit of sexual chemistry/previous canoodling (but the only other people I've seen talking about this are bi so it could just be my agenda

)

Also can't believe people didn't spot Ade Edmondson

GazChap · **Posted:** Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:57

On that topic, until it was made clear that

ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!

Rose was the bomber-chick's sister, I figured they were in a relationship because of the "yin/yang" necklaces etc.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Thu Dec 21, 2017 13:44

GazChap wrote:

Further thoughts (mostly negative, unfortunately)

ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!

The bombers appear out of fucking nowhere at the start (when Poe is doing the cannon run) - how the fuck did the FO not spot them?
Bombs dropping in space? And laser fire arcing as if affected by gravity?
Leia somehow manages to survive in a vacuum long enough to pull herself back into the ship? I thought for sure that they were going to use that scene to kill her off because Carrie Fisher died, but no...
Benicio Del Toro yet again playing someone with a speech impediment - and also knows the rebel plan despite not having anyway of doing so
Snoke's guards are fucking useless, and just keep on coming
Too much forced humour that didn't really work for me
Luke's weird sacrifice at the end - would have been much more powerful if he'd flown there in his X-Wing and fucked shit up
Doesn't make sense for Laura Dern to keep the plan secret from everyone, at all. I half expected there to be a reveal that she was a First Order spy deliberately fucking up the rebels.
The audio (lack of it, specifically) and the visual when the cruiser hyperspaces through Snoke's ship was fucking amazing
I thought the film was going to get Kylo Ren to suggest to Rey that they join forces and start a new order of both dark and light, which I thought would have been really interesting but ultimately went nowhere
Finn says to Poe near the end "Luke's facing their army alone, we have to help him" even though, to their eyes, he's literally just brushed off a HUGE barrage of attacks from said army without a single scratch.
Finn and Rose's plotline was ultimately pointless and could have been dramatically cut down

Despite all that, it was enjoyable enough. I maintain that I really don't get why everyone creams their pants over Star Wars movies though.

Some responses from how I took it:

ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!

* Yeah, the bombers did kinda come out of nowhere.
If you were being generous they could have snuck up while everyone was watching Poe

* The bombs dropped as they were within a spaceship that has artificial gravity. Once they go out of the ship there’s nothing to slow them down

* Leia used the Force in the vacuum as she is strong with it, like Luke, but only seems to use it in extremis. Did seem like a fun fake out, which is weird since it was obviously all conceived and filmed before she died

* Del toro has plenty of opportunity to learn the plan. Finn and Rose were in contact with Poe, and he’s also the master hacker who had access to the Resistance computers. I don’t think it’s too unlikely that he could, as he said, cut a deal on them.

* I thought Snoke’s guards were pretty badass. They didn’t just get slaughtered by two people who are supposed to be the strongest natural force users ever

* Luke doing what he did was much more inkeeping with the character and his promise not to leave the island. In the end he follows Obi Wan into the Force, having saved the legacy of the Resistance and the Jedi

* Laura Dern’s silence on the plan was a bit odd, granted.

* Her sacrifice was epic and the visuals and sound were brilliant. But you do just wonder why that isn’t the primary method of space combat; flinging hyperspace drives at each other. Looked cool though!

* The Finn/Rose bits were the weakest to me, but some other people seem to like them, and it plays strongly into the theme of background not mattering, and spreading the seeds of the Resistance across he galaxy.

It’s obviously a film with lots of flaws, but I really liked it, and I liked it diverging from the old template whilst keeping enough of the old ways about it.

Bamba · **Joined:** 25th Jul, 2010 **Posts:** 11128

Curiosity wrote:

ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!

* The bombs dropped as they were within a spaceship that has artificial gravity. Once they go out of the ship there’s nothing to slow them down

* Del toro has plenty of opportunity to learn the plan. Finn and Rose were in contact with Poe

ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!

*I don't really care about this but the physics of it would be very iffy. The bombs at the top of the ship would leave the gravity field with progressively more speed than those below, having had a larger drop to gather velocity before hitting vaccum, and so they'd all crash together and explode almost instantly.

* Yeah, except Poe himself didn't know the plan. A very big deal was made about that.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Re: the hyperspace thing:

(1) Doing that with a large ship as a standard way of attacking would be a massive, massive waste. The Alliance has always been short on materiél so using a massive cruiser as a weapon is not really sustainable.
(2) Whilst in theory it breaks the bit where Han jumped into hyperspace in the Falcon inside the large freighter's cargo bay in Force Awakens, I'm going to be kind and assume that she jimmied the hyperspace to instead stay in real space as it accelerated.
(3) Rule of Cool applies here.
(4) However they should have got 3PO to do it, the useless c*nt.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

That defence is clearly nonsense. If the rebels were doing this, they’d just have a big asteroid with an FTL drive glued on and a droid pilot. You wouldn’t have to use actual ships. And given how it trashed that massive ship — and given how readily the Imperials recognised the threat, so this is clearly a well understood phenomena — I don’t understand why this wouldn’t be the go-to tactic for taking out any capital ships.

This is an enormous plot hole.

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:53

3) wasn't cool, it was cringey.

KovacsC · **Posted:** Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:58

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

That defence is clearly nonsense. If the rebels were doing this, they’d just have a big asteroid with an FTL drive glued on and a droid pilot. You wouldn’t have to use actual ships. And given how it trashed that massive ship — and given how readily the Imperials recognised the threat, so this is clearly a well understood phenomena — I don’t understand why this wouldn’t be the go-to tactic for taking out any capital ships.

This is an enormous plot hole.

The ship was low on fuel. It was going to be abandoned anyway. It had one jump left.

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:04

Um... Thanks?

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

KovacsC wrote:

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

That defence is clearly nonsense. If the rebels were doing this, they’d just have a big asteroid with an FTL drive glued on and a droid pilot. You wouldn’t have to use actual ships. And given how it trashed that massive ship — and given how readily the Imperials recognised the threat, so this is clearly a well understood phenomena — I don’t understand why this wouldn’t be the go-to tactic for taking out any capital ships.

This is an enormous plot hole.

The ship was low on fuel. It was going to be abandoned anyway. It had one jump left.

That's irrelevant. If it was full and had a brand new paint job it would still have been worth trading it for the massive enemy ship.

In fact, if they'd done it at the start with the Nebulon-B Frigate, the others could have all just jumped away.

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:11

Newton's second law suggests they could easily have done it with an X-Wing.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

They could also have done it against both Death Stars and the Starkiller Base. Almost half of all Star Wars films have revolved around “how do we destroy this massive thing” and we’re supposed to believe no-one has considered weaponised hyperdrives before?

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:27

Also, you now can't travel from point A to point B without checking to see if you're going to smack into a moon on the way.

Christ, hit a coin that someone dropped in space and it's going to turn your ship inside out.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Grim... wrote:

Also, you now can't travel from point A to point B without checking to see if you're going to smack into a moon on the way.

Christ, hit a coin that someone dropped in space and it's going to turn your ship inside out.

Not necessarily - it could have been as it was accelerating into hyperspace, not when it was actually in hyperspace.

Hearthly · **Joined:** 11th May, 2008 **Posts:** 13382

And yet when I nitpick about how the zombies survive through winter in TWD it's being silly and not enjoying the experience.

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:44

Giphy "clutching at straws":
https://media0.giphy.com/media/r1wowvZiCQR7W/giphy-loop.mp4

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:44

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Mate. It's science fiction.

Hearthly · **Joined:** 11th May, 2008 **Posts:** 13382

MrChris wrote:

Mate. It's science fiction.

I would contend that any sort of fiction has to make an effort to create a consistent world that makes sense on its own terms, science fiction or otherwise.

I don't see the 'winter zombie conundrum' as being much different from the 'weaponised hyperdrive problem'.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Hearthly wrote:

And yet when I nitpick about how the zombies survive through winter in TWD it's being silly and not enjoying the experience.

You're comparing it with real life though. We're comparing TLJ with its own in-universe consistency.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

MrChris wrote:

Mate. It's science fiction.

So internal consistency doesn’t matter?

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Grim... wrote:

Also, you now can't travel from point A to point B without checking to see if you're going to smack into a moon on the way.

Christ, hit a coin that someone dropped in space and it's going to turn your ship inside out.

That was already (film) canon:

Han Solo: “Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?”

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

MrChris wrote:

Mate. It's science fiction.

So internal consistency doesn’t matter?

Like, if Luke had missed his last shot during the trench run and then pulled a twenty ton SuperMegaForceBomb out of his pocket that he’d had all along and never mentioned and used that to blow up the Death Star, then that’s all cool because “Mate, it’s science fiction”?

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:24

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Grim... wrote:

Also, you now can't travel from point A to point B without checking to see if you're going to smack into a moon on the way.

Christ, hit a coin that someone dropped in space and it's going to turn your ship inside out.

That was already (film) canon:

Han Solo: “Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?”

Oh, then IV fucks up, not XIII.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

You'd think he would have mentioned the twenty ton supermegaforcebomb.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Grim... wrote:

Oh, then IV fucks up, not XIII.

Nah, they've got particle shielding which fixes your 2p coming problem, but not your star or fucking big spaceship problem

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:27

Cras wrote:

Grim... wrote:

Oh, then IV fucks up, not XIII.

Nah, they've got particle shielding which fixes your 2p coming problem, but not your star or fucking big spaceship problem

Right, but the plot hole of "if your ship still obeys physical laws in hyperspace why isn't everyone weaponising hyperdrives" exists from the start.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Yes, and that I 100% agree with.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Hyperdrives do cut out if they sense a gravity well, that's the principle interdictor cruisers work on, but I'm not sure if they're canon any more. I guess if they were then the empire would just have brought one along to the rebel base and that would have been a short old film.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Cras wrote:

You'd think he would have mentioned the twenty ton supermegaforcebomb.

Mate. It’s science fiction.

myp · **Posted:** Fri Dec 22, 2017 13:29

Not seen SW13 yet. Any good?

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Heh.

You're assuming a lack of internal consistency simply because they didn't explain how it worked.

Otherwise, if there wasn't a really good internally consistent reason for why it happened that doesn't fuck up everything before it, that'd be like they just made a stupid decision to do something to get them out of a plot dead end and to do something that looked amazing, and Disney would never do that surely.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Grim... wrote:

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Grim... wrote:

Also, you now can't travel from point A to point B without checking to see if you're going to smack into a moon on the way.

Christ, hit a coin that someone dropped in space and it's going to turn your ship inside out.

That was already (film) canon:

Han Solo: “Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?”

Oh, then IV fucks up, not XIII.

No, iv and viii are fine but vii is wrong then.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Every film where they didn't just strap a hyperdrive engine onto a rock and call it an unstoppable capital ship destroying missile is wrong.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Yep, looks that way.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

I have seen it. I thought it was good, not great — but I’d really only rate Empire as great, I think. Probably better than either Force or Rogue, both of which I felt had sizeable flaws.

Oh hang on, just saw this. Get out. Now. Rogue is quite clearly the second best star wars film after Empire. Empirically so, you might say.

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Dec 22, 2017 14:16

Cras wrote:

Every film where they didn't just strap a hyperdrive engine onto a rock and call it an unstoppable capital ship destroying missile is wrong.

...

... ...

Fuck!

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Dec 22, 2017 14:17

Oh no wait, I totally cover that. Go me!

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Yep, you're good

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

MrChris wrote:

Oh hang on, just saw this. Get out. Now. Rogue is quite clearly the second best star wars film after Empire. Empirically so, you might say.

No character in Rogue is even remotely interesting to watch. It’s a total charisma vacuum. It doesn’t wreck the film but it’s a huge black mark compared to any five continuous seconds of Harrison Ford in the original trilogy.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

MrChris wrote:

Oh hang on, just saw this. Get out. Now. Rogue is quite clearly the second best star wars film after Empire. Empirically so, you might say.

No character in Rogue is even remotely interesting to watch. It’s a total charisma vacuum. It doesn’t wreck the film but it’s a huge black mark compared to any five continuous seconds of Harrison Ford in the original trilogy.

You are actually broken.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Robot Wash!

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Dec 22, 2017 14:55

I think Rogue One is probably my favourite Star Wars film, purely because of that bit at the end.

markg · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 16560

Yeah Star Wars is pretty much a set piece kind of series for me. As a kid that was what really got me stoked on it. I cared 1/10th as much about Vader Being Luke's dad and all that sort of guff as I did seeing Tie fighters blowing up X-Wings or AT-ATs stomping about and all that jazz.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Grim... wrote:

I think Rogue One is probably my favourite Star Wars film, purely because of that bit at the end.

OMFGyez.

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