People easily forget that the victims of abuse have nothing to gain and everything to lose by making accusations like this. And the cases where someone is making something up for their moment in the spotlight is dwarfed by instances where it gets minimised into nothingness.

The thing that really gets me, is the indignation of some men, like "Well I can't risk going into a room on my own with a woman in case she makes something up about me, or gets offended if I touch her arm!" Women, for all time, have been second guessing every lone interaction with the vast majority of men they encounter. This whole "can I trust this person" is not new to us, and it is only your privilege up until this point in time - now that some 'typically' male behaviour is being questioned - that brings those trust issues to the front and centre of your world. I'm not saying all men a rapists or abusers, or that men can't imagine what it's like but a lot of men do fail to see the extent of the automatic, birthright privilege that comes from being a man and that does stop them believing things could be any other way.

Ask your wives if they've ever been in a situation with a man that made them nervous. Then ask yourself if you've ever genuinely been concerned a woman might take it upon herself to make up a sexual assault after being alone in a room with you, and then think about how closely that fear is tied specifically to large scale stories of sexual abuse by men in power in the media. Women don't need to read about a serial rapist/groper/flasher on the loose to before they worry about being assaulted or cat-called or otherwise reduced to a sex object, it's a default state for many, in many situations.

A lot of the attitudes that need to change aren't intentionally hurtful or sexist, it's stuff that is deeply ingrained within society as a whole - men and women, straight or otherwise. That person engaged in casual encounters, they were dressed suggestively, they didn't speak out soon enough, they went out alone at night, they knew his reputation when they went in the room with him, they should have tried to avoid the situation, they shouldn't have been so drunk.

I know of a police officer who genuinely thought women who refuse to give evidence or press charges after reporting a sexual assault should be charged with wasting police time. Where do you even begin with changing that kind of institutionalised attitude.

I'm not sure about what Corey Feldman is doing (for those that don't know, he says he has a list of names of people that abused him and other young actors, but he'll only release them as part of a documentary he needs $10,000,000 to create.

Meanwhile, at least one of the people on his list is "still powerful in Hollywood".

Maybe. Or maybe he wants to tell his story and retire from the cuisines that hurt him.

:luv:

Agree with all of that, Flis, and appreciate being able to read it from someone who has put it so well.

Kevin Spacey's career is going to ruined by an unsubstantiated 30 year old accusation.

That seems... unfair.

Pundy is saying that there are false reports of assaults (and every other type of crime, I've no doubt), and that they can probably end badly for the person accused.

Saying you believe the victim automatically because they're the victim (as opposed to being willing to believe the victim, which I guess you probably meant) very much is a statement of intent against the person(s) they're reporting - until proven otherwise, that person is guilty of the crime as reported.

You're conflating a personal belief of the victim with the actual legal side of a trial etc. A lot of the time the victims don't end up pressing charges. If someone came to me and told me they had been raped, I would believe them. I wouldn't demand proof. The legal side of it I am not commenting on at all.

Everyone's take on it is influenced heavily by the very human trait of identifying first off with someone who is most like them in some way. So it's fairly normal for a man when considering these scenarios to first imagine himself in the situation of someone falsely accused of something awful by some fucking nutter and losing everything as a result, his wife, his children etc. It's a horrifying thing to contemplate and even if you know it's vanishingly unlikely to happen it's hard not to make your mind go there. In much the same way as if you have kids and you hear about some random abduction, the first thing you often do is consider how you might feel if that were your child, you spin out scenarios in your mind where it happens and feel some degree of terror. Then usually later you might calm yourself and realise that almost certainly it never will be. Before I had a daughter I would try to imagine how that might feel but that gut-wrenching feeling wasn't there. So I can't honestly say that I know how women might feel reading about this stuff. I can and do try to imagine but really I'm clueless.

I dunno I'm rambling a bit but in reality what I actually do is decide what I think every time something happens. In all these recent high-profile cases it hasn't really crossed my mind to not believe the victims simply because so many people seem to be saying the same thing. But if I just read about a case where it was totally one person's word against another then I would still tend to believe the victim but there might be more than a sliver of doubt which might cause me to not mentally want to throw that person under a bus without knowing a bit more.

What you say here is perfectly understandable and reasonable, it's a measured response and you put thought into it. Not everyone does. There are always situations where people's black and white need to have, and express, an opinion are not measured or reasonable. A lot of the background to the formation of a belief or opinion is societal, and I think that is the issue in these and many other cases.

Going back to my police officer acquaintance, I was beyond shocked at their opinion and pointed out the infinite reasons someone may not choose to follow up a complaint of sexual assault or harassment. Their solicitor may have advised them not to because of lack of proof, a mutual friend may have suggested the accused has too much to lose, and was it really that bad, it's not like he held a gun to your head or beat you.

Asfish has a colleague who thought him asking a question would be misconstrued by the woman with the nail polish on. Her imagined response gave him cause to be offened in response. It is society and the behaviour of men generally that resulted in that situation, not her potential upset. It's nobodies right to say, do or ask someone whatever they want, whatever the situation. If you don't know that person well enough for a question not to be weird, don't ask. That's not on her.

Teenage girls looking like they're 18 when they're 13 and getting men shouting to them in the street "I didn't know she was a kid - look how she's dressed". That's not her fault, why are you blatantly ogling females in the street? Don't do it, and then you don't have to defend yourself with some false, misplaced offence at how a child is dressed.

It is mens behaviour that has lead to encounters being awkward or uncomfortable. Women should not have to be on guard. And men should not find offense in her actions but in the actions of all the men before him.

a) Rapp was allegedly harassed when he was 14, which is pretty nasty and reason enough to believe this situation caused him so much stress. Now there are some other people, who were grown man, to claim to have PTSD from crouch grabbing Spacey.

I think you are completely, completely wrong. I do not think having someone grope your genitals is something that you should need to ‘grow a spine’ over at any age. You may be able to get over it, that doesn’t mean that everyone else can.

I think you are completely, completely wrong. I do not think having someone grope your genitals is something that you should need to ‘grow a spine’ over at any age. You may be able to get over it, that doesn’t mean that everyone else can.

Ok, maybe I wasn't sensitive enough. I'm sorry. Maybe the guy had some rough upbringing and crouch grabbing triggers something, i dunno. Each one of us has our own demons. I had a boss who was a bully which gave me much more headaches than any crotch grabbing, so yes, but it's not like I'm asking for his career to be finished, like some people are doing with dustin hoffman for something shitty he said more than 30 years ago.

What's the cut-off point for a grown man? Sixteen years old?

You sound like a sociopath, sorry. You need to work on your empathy.

Seriously, that's a really shitty thing to say. You don't know me.

Seriously, that's a really shitty thing to say. You don't know me.

It's interesting, actually. RuySan, you're Portuguese, yes? I get the impression that Portugal still goes in for the whole "machismo" thing. Where men are expected to be MEN and not have feelings and such. Correct me if I'm wrong, naturally!

Being called a sociopath ain’t the worst thing in the world. I can think of much more insulting names that one human can call another.

Myp is all of them.

crouch grabbing

But i'm not a sociopath, but it's not the first time someone said something like that, so why should i expect better from this forum?

That's fascinating, Ruysan. I confess that I know very little about Portuguese politics. That whole Anglo Saxon political correctness thing is stunning. Is it seen to radiate from us?

What's the cut-off point for a grown man? Sixteen years old?

But you seem to be asking for an understanding that your society, way of life, priorities should be different from that of the ‘Anglo-Saxon Western PC culture’ that is ‘infecting’ your way of life, but it’s perhaps one of the tenets of a more understanding (‘PC’, if you will) way of seeing things that asks people to step back and say ‘I understand your way of life may have different values...’. Otherwise you might write whole nations off as savages for their differences. Unfortunately sexual assault is slightly different in that speaking up is still taboo... here in the UK as much as many other places, and you, whether from UK, Portugal, anywhere else should perhaps not make a call on the worthiness of a victim for the abuse they have suffered, or the point at which, or age at which, somethjng becomes inappropriate, affecting, life changing... Portuguese victims of sexual harassment need space and support to say ‘this happened to me and is wrong’ as much as anybody else on the planet if they need to. You, with your experiences, say you have no need, and that’s good that you have moved on unaffected, but war, famine, oppressive regimes, natural disaster... whatever ‘big’ and nationally awful things that might happen to a nation may not eclipse the awful things that might affect people on a personal level, but rather add on to it. An extreme example, but somebody raped during an occupation of their homeland does not get over the rape because their country is suffering on a large scale.

Of course not, because rape is rape and rape is terrible. But rape isn't what this is about.