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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 13:57 
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Bad Girl

Joined: 20th Apr, 2008
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Mr Dave wrote:
Not played nu gow, but I'd hardly say tlou is a good escort game. I have a distinct memory of hiding behind cover, watching my escorted jump up and down in the face of oblivious enemies.
Plot aside, there didn't seem (from memory) to be much point to them


The plot was the purpose... sigh.


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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 14:01 

Joined: 5th Jun, 2018
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Aaah yeah, your son can't die on GoW there were occasions where I hid when nearly dead just shooting bad guys with him.


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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 14:11 
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Paws for thought

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
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Satsuma wrote:
Mr Dave wrote:
Not played nu gow, but I'd hardly say tlou is a good escort game. I have a distinct memory of hiding behind cover, watching my escorted jump up and down in the face of oblivious enemies.
Plot aside, there didn't seem (from memory) to be much point to them


The plot was the purpose... sigh.

So it's not an example of escort as gameplay mechanics, like Ico is. Glad we agree.


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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 14:20 
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Mr Dave wrote:
Not played nu gow, but I'd hardly say tlou is a good escort game.

Mr Dave wrote:
So it's not an example of escort as gameplay mechanics, like Ico is. Glad we agree.

I'm confused. Is it a bad escort game, or not an escort game at all?


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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 14:24 
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Rude Belittler

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
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Ico was a) shite and b) you weren't escorting the girl, but carrying her like a sack of rocks with a smiley face drawn on.


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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 14:28 
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Mr Dave wrote:
Stealth games, with good stealth mechanics (thief, mgs, dishonoured etc etc) are a joy to play. When the game is less built around it, it suffers (see also: escort missions. Only ever done well in Ico, a game where it is the central mechanic.)

RE4 says "hi."


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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 15:22 
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Paws for thought

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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Mr Dave wrote:
Stealth games, with good stealth mechanics (thief, mgs, dishonoured etc etc) are a joy to play. When the game is less built around it, it suffers (see also: escort missions. Only ever done well in Ico, a game where it is the central mechanic.)

RE4 says "hi."

Never got that far, but I've certainly seen it used as the poster boy for "why not to have escorting in your game. the ai is as clever as a bunch of rocks"


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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 15:33 
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Excellent Member

Joined: 25th Jul, 2010
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
I'm confused. Is it a bad escort game, or not an escort game at all?


It's not an escort game. And neither is TLOU.


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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 15:36 
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Two heads are better than one

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Mr Dave wrote:
Never got that far, but I've certainly seen it used as the poster boy for "why not to have escorting in your game. the ai is as clever as a bunch of rocks"


I do appreciate its aged (*) , however at the time it was the stand out for how to do AI and escort missions in a game , and this was not a small part thrown in but you spend a good chunk of the game escorting and working with an AI character that you need to protect from everything trying to kill you both.

(*) RESI4 came out 11th Jan 2005


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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 15:45 
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Bamba wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
I'm confused. Is it a bad escort game, or not an escort game at all?


It's not an escort game. And neither is TLOU.

I agree with you, but Mr Dave seemed to reverse his position inside of half an hour then triumphantly proclaim he was right all along, which was confusing.


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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 15:55 
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Paws for thought

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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Bamba wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
I'm confused. Is it a bad escort game, or not an escort game at all?


It's not an escort game. And neither is TLOU.

I agree with you, but Mr Dave seemed to reverse his position inside of half an hour then triumphantly proclaim he was right all along, which was confusing.

I never said it was. I raised the escort thing as a way of saying some game mechanics struggle if it's not overly central to the game design.


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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 16:07 
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Mr Dave wrote:
I never said it was. I raised the escort thing as a way of saying some game mechanics struggle if it's not overly central to the game design.

I read
Mr Dave wrote:
I'd hardly say tlou is a good escort game.

as "TLOU is a bad escort game."


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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 17:05 
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Paws for thought

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i was replying to this:

Pundabaya wrote:
Mr Dave wrote:
Only ever done well in Ico, a game where it is the central mechanic.)


And God of War (the new one). And The Last of Us.


And couldn't be bothered to argue about whether TLOU was an escort game or not, given that he'd asserted it was. (Although it took me more than a moment of thinking to even understand why he'd said it was)

This might have been clearer if I hadn't had to go into a meeting and lots of posts appear in the interim.


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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 17:19 
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Lord Humongous

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FIGHT

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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 17:55 
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Rude Belittler

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The thing about escort mechanics is that the only way they work is make it so it's not really an escort you're doing. ICO does this by making the 'escortee' into a charismatic object to be pulled around the levels. The way TLOU and GoW do it is by making the 'escortee' as unobtrusive as possible. They stay out of trouble, mostly.


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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 23:35 
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Excellent Member

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Pundabaya wrote:
The thing about escort mechanics is that the only way they work is make it so it's not really an escort you're doing. ICO does this by making the 'escortee' into a charismatic object to be pulled around the levels. The way TLOU and GoW do it is by making the 'escortee' as unobtrusive as possible. They stay out of trouble, mostly.


TLOU and GOW don't have any kind of escort mechanic at all. They're just NPCs that follow you around, it's nothing like the same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:29 
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Prince of Fops

Joined: 14th May, 2009
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Bamba wrote:
Pundabaya wrote:
The thing about escort mechanics is that the only way they work is make it so it's not really an escort you're doing. ICO does this by making the 'escortee' into a charismatic object to be pulled around the levels. The way TLOU and GoW do it is by making the 'escortee' as unobtrusive as possible. They stay out of trouble, mostly.


TLOU and GOW don't have any kind of escort mechanic at all. They're just NPCs that follow you around, it's nothing like the same thing.


See also Bioshock Infinite. Your objective is to escort and protect Elizabeth, but there are no "escort mission" mechanics. She's basically an unkillable team mate.


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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:11 
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Paws for thought

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I do remember in bioshock 1,a section near the end where you had to protect one of the little girls while she harvested. I also remember it being the worst part of the game.


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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:07 
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Rude Belittler

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 4792
Bamba wrote:
Pundabaya wrote:
The thing about escort mechanics is that the only way they work is make it so it's not really an escort you're doing. ICO does this by making the 'escortee' into a charismatic object to be pulled around the levels. The way TLOU and GoW do it is by making the 'escortee' as unobtrusive as possible. They stay out of trouble, mostly.


TLOU and GOW don't have any kind of escort mechanic at all. They're just NPCs that follow you around, it's nothing like the same thing.


That's the whole point of what I'm saying.

Escort mechanics suck, so you get rid of them. You get the same story, but you get rid of the bollocks.

You make the person you're "escorting" (largely) invulnerable and either make them dumb as rocks, will no AI whatsoever (The ICO method) or give them AI but make them useful, and as little trouble as possible (TLOU and GoW... fun fact: when he's not on screen SONNN! in GoW literally disappears from the game world. When you climb ladders etc you never have to wait for him, because he just apparates and jumps on your back.)

I don't think there's an example of an actual escort mechanic that isn't a frustrating mess.


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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:14 
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Lord Humongous

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Pundabaya wrote:
I don't think there's an example of an actual escort mechanic that isn't a frustrating mess.

Dave Turpin at Scunthorpe Vintage Ford has always been honest and competitively priced.

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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 14:43 
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chewbacca -future arc welder

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Unlike his brother Richard


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 Post subject: Re: The Last of Us 2
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:26 
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Excellent Member

Joined: 25th Jul, 2010
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New trailer from yesterday's Playstation event:



You could predict the fridging of Ellie's girlfriend from pretty much the opening seconds, it would've been nice if they'd come up with a less hackneyed motivation. Also, a straight forward revenge story is less compelling than the previous game's plot to me with it's morality angle, but hopefully there's just more going on than they've revealed there.


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