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How do you feel about Britain leaving the EU?
1) I want the UK out of the EU at all costs. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
2) I want out of the EU, unless there is some show stopper that means we should stay in. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
3) I want out of the EU, but could easily be persuaded to stay in. 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
4) Not sure if we should stay in or out. 8%  8%  [ 3 ]
5) I want to stay in the EU, but could easily be persuaded to leave. 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
6) I want to stay in the EU, unless there is a showstopper that means we should leave. 59%  59%  [ 22 ]
7) I want the UK to stay in the EU at all costs. 27%  27%  [ 10 ]
Total votes : 37
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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 14:49 
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The referees are wankers

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 15:24 
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I don't know if it has anything to do with heated Referendum feelings right now, but my mum and dad's local MP Jo Cox has just been shot and stabbed by some nut outside Birstall Library, Batley. That's about ten minutes walk from their house and just outside a library my mum frequents. Apparently the MP was emerging from her surgery there when it happened. Very strange seeing news footage of armed police in a square which I've walked through countless times. She's currently in critical condition, so fingers very much crossed she pulls through. :(

Also I despise Farage with every fibre of my being, and I'm shocked at the timidity in people calling bullshit in the press at some of the damned obvious lies the Leave party have been spreading, and even more or so at the depressing hold the Daily Express and Mail seemingly has over the British people.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 15:49 
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The perpetrator shouted "Britain First" as they did it, so I'm guessing it has a lot to do with the referendum.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 15:54 
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It's quite a Muslim area, around here, and she's spoken out against attacks on Muslims. I'd look there first. There's only been a smattering of Leave posters around here.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 15:56 
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They don't need to look anywhere, they've got the guy I think.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 16:00 
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Look for reasons why.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 16:21 
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There are 2 helicopters above there now. I think i will drive home through Cleckheaton.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 16:23 
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Gogmagog

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It seems the police have a bright green mazda as an unmarked car, along with a white q5

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 16:25 
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MaliA wrote:
Look for reasons why.

I think the reasons are that he's a racist dickbag

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 16:42 
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Cras wrote:
It gets better. Here's the original of that image of queues of referees. Guess what they've done? Photoshopped out the white people so it's very clear that all refugees are of course brown people

I've not examined it closely, but I can only see the white guy near the foreground, and they've dropped a voting box over his head. Are there any clear cases of them removing people?

What I find hardest to swallow is that the fact that you've got all these people are desperate for help and if we do it's a bad thing.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 16:55 
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Grim... wrote:
Cras wrote:
It gets better. Here's the original of that image of queues of referees. Guess what they've done? Photoshopped out the white people so it's very clear that all refugees are of course brown people

I've not examined it closely, but I can only see the white guy near the foreground, and they've dropped a voting box over his head. Are there any clear cases of them removing people?


Oh shit, that's actually my bad. Completely looking in the wrong place, damn. Ignore!

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 16:59 
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I did wonder but thought there must have been other people you were referring to as I only gave my phone screen to see on.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 17:17 
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Grim... wrote:
What I find hardest to swallow is that the fact that you've got all these people are desperate for help and if we do it's a bad thing.


:this:


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 17:32 
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Oh Christ, she's dead. :'(

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 17:42 
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Genuinely shocked and stunned by this.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 17:45 
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Jesus.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 17:46 
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Quote:
Genuinely shocked and stunned by this.


Agreed, has this every happened in the UK before, an MP being murdered? Very shocking.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 17:47 
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Loads, but not since 1991.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Records_o ... n_murdered

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 17:48 
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Fuck

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 17:48 
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asfish wrote:
Quote:
Genuinely shocked and stunned by this.


Agreed, has this every happened in the UK before, an MP being murdered? Very shocking.


It's extremely rare, aside from certain murders relating to the Troubles. But yeah, this is rare. Wasn't there an MP who narrowly escaped a samurai sword attack a few years back?

We might mock, disdain, and verbally abuse our MPs, but they are still people.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 17:51 
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Fuck. That's bloody terrible. :'(

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 17:52 
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Just read the BBC's obituary. This part stuck out:

Quote:
She described herself as a "proud Yorkshire lass", but her work for charities took her around the world.

From 2002, she worked across the globe on poverty issues and discrimination.

For Oxfam, she worked on policy and campaigns including maternal mortality. A decade later she was a strategy consultant for Save the Children, and then the NSPCC.
...
"I've been in some horrific situations where women have been raped repeatedly in Darfur, I've been with child soldiers who have been given a Kalashnikov and kill members of their own family in Uganda," she said.

"In Afghanistan I was talking to Afghan elders who were world weary of a lack of sustained attention from their own government and from the international community to stop problems early.

"That's the thing that all of that experience gave me - if you ignore a problem, it gets worse."


Someone who was in public service for all the right reasons.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 18:27 
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Holy shit.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 18:30 
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This has knocked me for 6. I don't particularly know why.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 18:38 
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That is horrible

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 18:38 
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It's all just so sad, her poor kids. Someone who seemingly just wanted to help others gone and for what, fucking nothing.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 18:40 
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Quote:
This has knocked me for 6. I don't particularly know why.


Probably because MP's don't get attacked, shot and ultimately murdered at 1pm in the UK.

I didn't know who she was until this happened but I'm shocked.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 18:42 
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The Overton Window in the UK now seems, horrifically, to have widened to encompass murdering MPs who stood up for Syrian refugees. Because make no mistake -- dog whistle politics by mainstream parties emboldens and empowers the nut cases.

If you normalise nationalism with rhetoric, then xenophobia will follow, and outright racism will follow that.

So today we live in a world where Jo Cox is dead and Farage is standing in front of a duplicitous image of Syrian refugees claiming it's a reason to leave the EU because immigration is out of control. Don't tell me there's no link here.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 19:03 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
The Overton Window in the UK now seems, horrifically, to have widened to encompass murdering MPs who stood up for Syrian refugees. Because make no mistake -- dog whistle politics by mainstream parties emboldens and empowers the nut cases.

If you normalise nationalism with rhetoric, then xenophobia will follow, and outright racism will follow that.

So today we live in a world where Jo Cox is dead and Farage is standing in front of a duplicitous image of Syrian refugees claiming it's a reason to leave the EU because immigration is out of control. Don't tell me there's no link here.

Oh it's absolutely linked. The Vote Leave campaign has been disgusting. Obviously they're not entirely to blame but blood is certainly on their hands.

I'm completely choked up by this.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 19:04 
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... omas-mair/

Mental health possibly an issue

Edit:

http://heavy.com/news/2016/06/tommy-mai ... d-brendan/

""In a blog post at the far right Springbok Cyber Newsletter’s website, Mair is described as “one of the earliest subscribers and supporters of “S.A. Patriot.” On the magazine’s website, it’s described as being pro-free market capitalism and patriotism and anti-political correctness and “expansionist Islam.”"

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 19:06 
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http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/a-day-of-infamy/

Quote:
But, still. Look. When you encourage rage you cannot then feign surprise when people become enraged. You cannot turn around and say, ‘Mate, you weren’t supposed to take it so seriously. It’s just a game, just a ploy, a strategy for winning votes.’

When you shout BREAKING POINT over and over again, you don’t get to be surprised when someone breaks. When you present politics as a matter of life and death, as a question of national survival, don’t be surprised if someone takes you at your word. You didn’t make them do it, no, but you didn’t do much to stop it either.

Sometimes rhetoric has consequences. If you spend days, weeks, months, years telling people they are under threat, that their country has been stolen from them, that they have been betrayed and sold down the river, that their birthright has been pilfered, that their problem is they’re too slow to realise any of this is happening, that their problem is they’re not sufficiently mad as hell, then at some point, in some place, something or someone is going to snap. And then something terrible is going to happen.

We can’t control the weather but, in politics, we can control the climate in which the weather happens. That’s on us, all of us, whatever side of any given argument we happen to be. Today, it feels like we’ve done something terrible to that climate.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 19:08 
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MaliA wrote:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-mp-everything-we-know-so-far-about-thomas-mair/

Mental health possibly an issue

Oh for fucks sake! Millions of people have mental health issues without shooting and stabbing people. For some reason when it's a white shooter the 'sad loner' and 'mental health problems' stories come out. Poor mental health doesn't make you a racist prick.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 19:20 
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This guy should be viewed as a terrorist every bit as much as the Orlando guy.

Horrific


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 19:30 
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Nigel Farage, last month, saying that "violence in the streets" is "the next step."

https://twitter.com/RichieMcCormack/sta ... 9673688064


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 19:55 
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Lonewolves wrote:
MaliA wrote:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-mp-everything-we-know-so-far-about-thomas-mair/

Mental health possibly an issue

Oh for fucks sake! Millions of people have mental health issues without shooting and stabbing people. For some reason when it's a white shooter the 'sad loner' and 'mental health problems' stories come out. Poor mental health doesn't make you a racist prick.


No.

Power + predjudice = racism

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 20:14 
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MaliA wrote:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-mp-everything-we-know-so-far-about-thomas-mair/

Mental health possibly an issue


The source article says the centre is for physiotherapy, not psychotherapy.

http://www.batleynews.co.uk/news/local/ ... -1-2976712


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 20:44 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
MaliA wrote:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-mp-everything-we-know-so-far-about-thomas-mair/

Mental health possibly an issue


The source article says the centre is for physiotherapy, not psychotherapy.

http://www.batleynews.co.uk/news/local/ ... -1-2976712


Reporting on the reporting.

I'll ask about tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 23:05 
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.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 23:30 
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Mimi wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Communist plot uncovered in Highgate

This deserves some smattering of applause at least.

This. I've smattered it. Consider this a smattering.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:24 
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Made me chuckle


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:38 
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Not sure if anyone has posted this interesting piece from several years ago. http://sluggerotoole.com/2010/12/13/why ... be-banned/


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:46 
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What do you make of his arguments?

I'm against using referendums for matters of policy, but err in favour of them when it comes to constitutional questions as the people should have the final choice over how they are governed. The only alternative is a specially-elected convention dedicated solely to discussing that matter, but that would in and of itself become a proxy referendum.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:51 
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ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:
Not sure if anyone has posted this interesting piece from several years ago. http://sluggerotoole.com/2010/12/13/why ... be-banned/


Unsurprisingly, I agree with that pretty much in its entirety.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:05 
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My friend was so opposed to the police commissioner elections he spoilt his ballot paper by writing 'the one who supports cutting crime and anti-social behaviour' at the bottom and adding an 'X' to it.

I'm never sure if boycotting a vote is more honest than spoiling a paper or begrudgingly picking a side when you disagree with an entire institution or ballot.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:09 
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Kern wrote:
What do you make of his arguments?

I'm against using referendums for matters of policy, but err in favour of them when it comes to constitutional questions as the people should have the final choice over how they are governed. The only alternative is a specially-elected convention dedicated solely to discussing that matter, but that would in and of itself become a proxy referendum.


I think a lot of the points made are valid to referendums generally, and in particular this one. However, I'd also say that just because referendums are used for the wrong reasons, it isn't sufficient to extrapolate that to all referendums are used for the wrong reasons. You could in fact apply each of the negative statements to General Elections as an example.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:16 
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Also I'd add that back when the consideration of joining the Euro was a real possibility, and that was likely to be the subject of a referendum, my initial thoughts were that such a vote would be positive. However, having then established that the deciding (and only) factor for the majority of potential voters was that they didn't want notes and coins that weren't called 'pounds' and didn't have the queens face on them I realised that some issues can't be handed over to the people.

I'm fairly sure that the economic factors were so misunderstood back then (perhaps less so now, after the various Euro Crises) that if Blair had announced that we'd join the eurozone, but keep the £ sign and our own notes and coins on a 1:1 fixed exchange rate then the population would have let him get it through without a vote, as it would make getting their travel money easier.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:23 
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Do you think there's ever been a referendum of note where the populous at large could be thought to have a proper understanding of the issues?

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:25 
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Probably not, but then there are a whole raft of issues where the politicians making decisions don't either, or at least they wilfully ignore it. Climate change, drugs prohibition, crime and punishment. None of it is perfect.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:25 
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I was about to write a comment on that link APOD posted but he's basically summed up what I was going to say anyway.

Was it The Prefect by Alastair Reynolds where everything was voted for by direct votes, and the "better" voters got upweighted. If we could do that then the idea of direct democracy might be a better idea. That California example Mr Slugger linked to was quite terrifying.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:26 
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Define "better viter"

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