I always find it fascinating to note how terrified the Left is of giving the people an actual, real say about stuff, as opposed to leaving such things to technocrats, men in grey suits (more pink berets needed? ). The Right just doesn't have this problem.

Sorry, did you just say the right has no authoritarian tendencies?

but it is a matter of numbers in a referendum, and it is probably 1/10 of 1/10 who can answer kern's questions.

You quite possibly do, but I bet that most of the people who are complaining that they don't know anything about the way the EU works, also don't know too much about how their local authorities work either. They may know who their local MP is (although I'd bet quite a lot don't know this either) and maybe a couple of high profile Cabinet Members, but I think the vast majority don't know much more than that.

I always find it fascinating to note how terrified the Left is of giving the people an actual, real say about stuff, as opposed to leaving such things to technocrats, men in grey suits (more pink berets needed? ). The Right just doesn't have this problem.

Politics, economics, and social policy are difficult. An opinion isn't good enough when it comes to something so critical to the future of the nation. There is nothing more important than to ensure that the people making such an enormous decision know what it is they're evaluating and know what the potential ramifications would be. It is overwhelmingly clear that on both sides, the vast, vast majority of the populous is incapable of understanding a decision this momentous (and I include myself in that category). Delegating the responsibility for this decision to the general public is utterly irresponsible. More, delegating the decision to the fucking media is criminal.

Have a referendum on whether we should change the national anthem, or have a bank holiday for St George's day, by all means. Don't have a referendum about whether or not it's a good idea to bet on black or red with the entire future of the nation.

Craster, I'm off to the supermarket to buy crisps.

Firsty, which supermarket should I go to (Morrissons, Tesco or The Asdas) and secondly, what crisps should I buy?

Heh. In a way, you've tapped into the core point. If Craster makes the wrong choice, what can we do to him?

Evaluate the reasons you appointed me in the first place, and pick someone else in X years' time. Something you can't do with 40 million members of the general public.

Politics, economics, and social policy are difficult. An opinion isn't good enough when it comes to something so critical to the future of the nation. There is nothing more important than to ensure that the people making such an enormous decision know what it is they're evaluating and know what the potential ramifications would be. It is overwhelmingly clear that on both sides, the vast, vast majority of the populous is incapable of understanding a decision this momentous (and I include myself in that category). Delegating the responsibility for this decision to the general public is utterly irresponsible. More, delegating the decision to the fucking media is criminal.

Have a referendum on whether we should change the national anthem, or have a bank holiday for St George's day, by all means. Don't have a referendum about whether or not it's a good idea to bet on black or red with the entire future of the nation.

Nah, I'm not buying that. Yes, governance is difficult - democracy is difficult. Took thousands of years of human history to arrive at this point; dictatorships and the like are so much more convenient, no doubt.

This strikes me as ridiculously defeatist; you are, in effect, saying that the public are way, way too thick to even understand the basic pros and cons of being in the EU, and what - in basic, summary terms - would be the likely ramifications of staying or leaving. Well, I'm sorry, but this utterly patronising attitude of the Left makes me want to vomit; people need to remember that MPs, civil servants, ministers serve the public, and are wholly accountable to the public.

This pessimism that people can't even be educated - this whole "can't do" attitude..? Somehow it's "irresponsible" to let people have a true, democratic say in their futures? I'm no Brexiter, but no wonder their campaign is gaining such traction, with sentiments like these. People are sick of this nonsense, and not just in the UK either.

This strikes me as ridiculously defeatist; you are, in effect, saying that the public are way, way too thick to even understand the basic pros and cons of being in the EU, and what - in basic, summary terms - would be the likely ramifications of staying or leaving. Well, I'm sorry, but this utterly patronising attitude of the Left makes me want to vomit; people need to remember that MPs, civil servants, ministers serve the public, and are wholly accountable to the public.

this utterly patronising attitude of the Left makes me want to vomit

I am sure both major parties do this!

What exactly about the current state of the Remain and Leave campaigns can you point to to support this supposition?

I mean, those are some pretty words, and I'd like to believe they are true. But I can recall seeing no evidence of that.

What, like green? You warmongerer.

Nah, I'm not buying that. Yes, governance is difficult - democracy is difficult. Took thousands of years of human history to arrive at this point; dictatorships and the like are so much more convenient, no doubt.

This strikes me as ridiculously defeatist; you are, in effect, saying that the public are way, way too thick to even understand the basic pros and cons of being in the EU, and what - in basic, summary terms - would be the likely ramifications of staying or leaving. Well, I'm sorry, but this utterly patronising attitude of the Left makes me want to vomit; people need to remember that MPs, civil servants, ministers serve the public, and are wholly accountable to the public.

This pessimism that people can't even be educated - this whole "can't do" attitude..? Somehow it's "irresponsible" to let people have a true, democratic say in their futures? I'm no Brexiter, but no wonder their campaign is gaining such traction, with sentiments like these. People are sick of this nonsense, and not just in the UK either.

I'm stealing that.

I'm always viral. I can recommend a good cream.

You're misinterpreting what I'm saying completely. I'm not saying people are incapable of being educated. I'm not saying people are stupid. I'm saying macroeconomics and social concepts like immigration are incredibly complex. Unless it is quite literally your job to understand these things it will categorically not happen. I don't want the layman choosing our economic path just like I don't want a layman deciding whether I should have an RSJ put in when I take out a wall in my house. Decisions of major impact require experts to make them. I pay a structural engineer to design my house, I employ civil servants (and their advisors) to make economic/social policy decisions.

It's not about stupid. It's about needing a lifetime of education to be able to understand what's going on. It's about people like the leave campaign saying "People are fed up of experts". It's about people like Murdoch leading entire newspaper readerships around by the nose with lies and scaremongering because it suits his own preferences.

If there was a single bit of documentation out there that people could look at that would give them the basic pros and cons of leaving the EU, I'd be a happy man. There isn't. There are two sets - one biased towards stay, and one biased towards leave. Both sets are propaganda. Both sets swing between outright mistruths and slanted evidence to promote their own agenda. The general public absolutely is not capable of navigating those waters and working out what's accurate, what's lies, what's fact, and what's speculation. That's not a 'can't do attitude', it's simple truth. It is outright too complicated to understand at face value, let alone with the fact that every source of information the public has is slanted to serve a biased agenda.

Yes, it's irresponsible to let people have a direct say in their futures. That is why representative democracy exists and is the cornerstone of every single first world civilisation on the planet.

You've pretty much repeated what you said before, and I (unsurprisingly) still disagree with you. What, I need to spend a lifetime being specifically educated about the EU before I can even vote to stay in or out...?

They're actively campaigning against people educating themselves and specifically want people to vote with their gut, ignorant of facts.

No, you can vote right now. You'll just simply have no idea at all if you're voting for what's right for yourself, the nation or other people, because you don't have a clue how the outcome will affect anything, much like 99.9% of the population.

If we won't agree on the first part, that it's too complex (which is fine, happy to disagree) at least we seem to on the latter - that there is no unbiased media on which people can rely.

Edit: @Cavey

Indeed ( ), but the latter can readily fixed, and should be fixed. We do not need to throw the democratic baby out with the bathwater to do this.

Which is what we'll all be doing.

There are things which don't require so much knowing of ledges.

Diplomacy. Yeah, that'll be damaged for quite a while.
Sphere of influence. Similar. Because it relies on Diplomacy.

I don't have a crystal ball, I don't know what the outcome will be when I vote in a government during a General Election either. No-one knows what the outcome of anything will be. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have democracy and vote about stuff.

People vote wrongly all the time; they vote for stuff I don't like all the time, too. Shit, many of 'em cast said votes in partial - even total - ignorance. And yet, still I fiercely defend their right to do so, and fear the alternatives.

That's why we get to try again in five years if we fuck up, though.

People vote wrongly all the time; they vote for stuff I don't like all the time, too. Shit, many of 'em cast said votes in partial - even total - ignorance. And yet, still I fiercely defend their right to do so, and fear the alternatives.

The alternative is that the people we elect every five years do what we elected them to do, which is make decisions like this.

Which is what we'll all be doing.

But the principle is exactly the same - people voting for likely momentous, very important stuff, i.e. their government of the next 5 years who, in that time, might go to war or fuck up the economy in their name

Lulz. Surely you jest.
Ironing.

Indeed ( ), but the latter can readily fixed, and should be fixed. We do not need to throw the democratic baby out with the bathwater to do this.

How do we do that? Neither the politicians nor the media want an educated populous making their own decisions. So what now?

Why? I have never voted for nor supported Labour until late last year. You need to stop with this false dichotomy that everyone who criticises the Tories is a dyed-in-the-wool Labour fanatic.