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How do you feel about Britain leaving the EU?
1) I want the UK out of the EU at all costs. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
2) I want out of the EU, unless there is some show stopper that means we should stay in. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
3) I want out of the EU, but could easily be persuaded to stay in. 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
4) Not sure if we should stay in or out. 8%  8%  [ 3 ]
5) I want to stay in the EU, but could easily be persuaded to leave. 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
6) I want to stay in the EU, unless there is a showstopper that means we should leave. 59%  59%  [ 22 ]
7) I want the UK to stay in the EU at all costs. 27%  27%  [ 10 ]
Total votes : 37
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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:00 
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Cavey wrote:
I always find it fascinating to note how terrified the Left is of giving the people an actual, real say about stuff, as opposed to leaving such things to technocrats, men in grey suits (more pink berets needed? :D ). The Right just doesn't have this problem.

Sorry, did you just say the right has no authoritarian tendencies?


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:00 
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but it is a matter of numbers in a referendum, and it is probably 1/10 of 1/10 who can answer kern's questions.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:00 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Cavey wrote:
I always find it fascinating to note how terrified the Left is of giving the people an actual, real say about stuff, as opposed to leaving such things to technocrats, men in grey suits (more pink berets needed? :D ). The Right just doesn't have this problem.

Sorry, did you just say the right has no authoritarian tendencies?

I read it as the right only has authoritarian tendencies

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:04 
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Bobbyaro wrote:
but it is a matter of numbers in a referendum, and it is probably 1/10 of 1/10 who can answer kern's questions.


So should we agree to stay in a system of government we profess not to understand?

I reckon a vote on a full federation would be easier for the public: most understood what an independent Scotland would look like after all. I just don't see the EU remaining static after the vote, and I don't think we're going to see a retreat away from closer integration. I think remain should be more open about the current state of the EU and what it might become.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:06 
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Malc wrote:
You quite possibly do, but I bet that most of the people who are complaining that they don't know anything about the way the EU works, also don't know too much about how their local authorities work either. They may know who their local MP is (although I'd bet quite a lot don't know this either) and maybe a couple of high profile Cabinet Members, but I think the vast majority don't know much more than that.


Yeah, I'm a politics nerd working in local government (yes it matters! No we don't do your bins!).
It's one of the reasons I'm generally in favour of elected mayors as it provides a focal point for the public in the place where they live, even if I am a little sceptical of presidentialism.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:11 
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Cavey wrote:
I always find it fascinating to note how terrified the Left is of giving the people an actual, real say about stuff, as opposed to leaving such things to technocrats, men in grey suits (more pink berets needed? :D ). The Right just doesn't have this problem.


Politics, economics, and social policy are difficult. An opinion isn't good enough when it comes to something so critical to the future of the nation. There is nothing more important than to ensure that the people making such an enormous decision know what it is they're evaluating and know what the potential ramifications would be. It is overwhelmingly clear that on both sides, the vast, vast majority of the populous is incapable of understanding a decision this momentous (and I include myself in that category). Delegating the responsibility for this decision to the general public is utterly irresponsible. More, delegating the decision to the fucking media is criminal.

Have a referendum on whether we should change the national anthem, or have a bank holiday for St George's day, by all means. Don't have a referendum about whether or not it's a good idea to bet on black or red with the entire future of the nation.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:20 
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Cras wrote:

Politics, economics, and social policy are difficult. An opinion isn't good enough when it comes to something so critical to the future of the nation. There is nothing more important than to ensure that the people making such an enormous decision know what it is they're evaluating and know what the potential ramifications would be. It is overwhelmingly clear that on both sides, the vast, vast majority of the populous is incapable of understanding a decision this momentous (and I include myself in that category). Delegating the responsibility for this decision to the general public is utterly irresponsible. More, delegating the decision to the fucking media is criminal.

Have a referendum on whether we should change the national anthem, or have a bank holiday for St George's day, by all means. Don't have a referendum about whether or not it's a good idea to bet on black or red with the entire future of the nation.


:this: So much :this:

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:21 
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I'm stealing that.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:28 
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Would you concede a referendum if the option was a full federation with a single treasury, military, executive, legislature, judiciary, and the countries being dissolved into states/Laender/provinces/regions of a sovereign realm called the EU? Or would you be happy for Parliament to make that choice?

I'm in favour of representative democracy but when it comes to questions of who should govern us I think the public need to be more involved. The problem with the EU is that since we've joined it's changed a lot but nobody has bothered to take the people along on the ride. And eventually, they realise and respond.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:28 
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Craster is the voice of the people.

Let's elect Craster, and let him decide.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:30 
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Craster, I'm off to the supermarket to buy crisps.

Firsty, which supermarket should I go to (Morrissons, Tesco or The Asdas) and secondly, what crisps should I buy?

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:30 
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Craster for Lord Protector!


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:32 
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Mimi wrote:
Craster, I'm off to the supermarket to buy crisps.

Firsty, which supermarket should I go to (Morrissons, Tesco or The Asdas) and secondly, what crisps should I buy?


Heh. In a way, you've tapped into the core point. If Craster makes the wrong choice, what can we do to him?


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:40 
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Evaluate the reasons you appointed me in the first place, and pick someone else in X years' time. Something you can't do with 40 million members of the general public.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:42 
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Kern wrote:
Mimi wrote:
Craster, I'm off to the supermarket to buy crisps.

Firsty, which supermarket should I go to (Morrissons, Tesco or The Asdas) and secondly, what crisps should I buy?


Heh. In a way, you've tapped into the core point. If Craster makes the wrong choice, what can we do to him?


Depends where you come from.

French? We strike.
English? We moan but let him decide again next time.
American? We kick him out and vote in a right wing wall builder who is great at winding people up <cough>Cavey...</cough> ;)
Russian? We kill him.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:43 
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Cras wrote:
Evaluate the reasons you appointed me in the first place, and pick someone else in X years' time. Something you can't do with 40 million members of the general public.


Except that snack-choosing powers are shared with 'So talk about games' and 'Wings over Scotland', so even if we want smoky bacon we're stuck with ready salted.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:47 
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But Wings Over Scotland will put them in two slices of white bread with a Mars Bar and call it a revolution.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:36 
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Cras wrote:
Cavey wrote:
I always find it fascinating to note how terrified the Left is of giving the people an actual, real say about stuff, as opposed to leaving such things to technocrats, men in grey suits (more pink berets needed? :D ). The Right just doesn't have this problem.


Politics, economics, and social policy are difficult. An opinion isn't good enough when it comes to something so critical to the future of the nation. There is nothing more important than to ensure that the people making such an enormous decision know what it is they're evaluating and know what the potential ramifications would be. It is overwhelmingly clear that on both sides, the vast, vast majority of the populous is incapable of understanding a decision this momentous (and I include myself in that category). Delegating the responsibility for this decision to the general public is utterly irresponsible. More, delegating the decision to the fucking media is criminal.

Have a referendum on whether we should change the national anthem, or have a bank holiday for St George's day, by all means. Don't have a referendum about whether or not it's a good idea to bet on black or red with the entire future of the nation.


Nah, I'm not buying that. Yes, governance is difficult - democracy is difficult. Took thousands of years of human history to arrive at this point; dictatorships and the like are so much more convenient, no doubt.

This strikes me as ridiculously defeatist; you are, in effect, saying that the public are way, way too thick to even understand the basic pros and cons of being in the EU, and what - in basic, summary terms - would be the likely ramifications of staying or leaving. Well, I'm sorry, but this utterly patronising attitude of the Left makes me want to vomit; people need to remember that MPs, civil servants, ministers serve the public, and are wholly accountable to the public.

This pessimism that people can't even be educated - this whole "can't do" attitude..? Somehow it's "irresponsible" to let people have a true, democratic say in their futures? I'm no Brexiter, but no wonder their campaign is gaining such traction, with sentiments like these. People are sick of this nonsense, and not just in the UK either.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:40 
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Cavey wrote:
Cras wrote:
Cavey wrote:
I always find it fascinating to note how terrified the Left is of giving the people an actual, real say about stuff, as opposed to leaving such things to technocrats, men in grey suits (more pink berets needed? :D ). The Right just doesn't have this problem.


Politics, economics, and social policy are difficult. An opinion isn't good enough when it comes to something so critical to the future of the nation. There is nothing more important than to ensure that the people making such an enormous decision know what it is they're evaluating and know what the potential ramifications would be. It is overwhelmingly clear that on both sides, the vast, vast majority of the populous is incapable of understanding a decision this momentous (and I include myself in that category). Delegating the responsibility for this decision to the general public is utterly irresponsible. More, delegating the decision to the fucking media is criminal.

Have a referendum on whether we should change the national anthem, or have a bank holiday for St George's day, by all means. Don't have a referendum about whether or not it's a good idea to bet on black or red with the entire future of the nation.


Nah, I'm not buying that. Yes, governance is difficult - democracy is difficult. Took thousands of years of human history to arrive at this point; dictatorships and the like are so much more convenient, no doubt.

This strikes me as ridiculously defeatist; you are, in effect, saying that the public are way, way too thick to even understand the basic pros and cons of being in the EU, and what - in basic, summary terms - would be the likely ramifications of staying or leaving. Well, I'm sorry, but this utterly patronising attitude of the Left makes me want to vomit; people need to remember that MPs, civil servants, ministers serve the public, and are wholly accountable to the public.

This pessimism that people can't even be educated - this whole "can't do" attitude..? Somehow it's "irresponsible" to let people have a true, democratic say in their futures? I'm no Brexiter, but no wonder their campaign is gaining such traction, with sentiments like these. People are sick of this nonsense, and not just in the UK either.


I am sure both major parties do this!

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:41 
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Cavey wrote:
This strikes me as ridiculously defeatist; you are, in effect, saying that the public are way, way too thick to even understand the basic pros and cons of being in the EU, and what - in basic, summary terms - would be the likely ramifications of staying or leaving. Well, I'm sorry, but this utterly patronising attitude of the Left makes me want to vomit; people need to remember that MPs, civil servants, ministers serve the public, and are wholly accountable to the public.
What exactly about the current state of the Remain and Leave campaigns can you point to to support this supposition?

I mean, those are some pretty words, and I'd like to believe they are true. But I can recall seeing no evidence of that.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:44 
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Cavey wrote:
this utterly patronising attitude of the Left makes me want to vomit

Stop trying to paint this as a left-vs-right thing. It's literally orthogonal, and we have brains that are capable of navigating political beliefs on more than one axis at once:

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:47 
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KovacsC wrote:
I am sure both major parties do this!


Well, clearly they don't, Kov, since the Tories have called the Referendum in the first place (i.e. they HAVE empowered the people, rightly or wrongly), and have been roundly criticised by Labour for so doing. Chalk and cheese.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:49 
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I don't think they had a choice, did they?

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:49 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Cavey wrote:
This strikes me as ridiculously defeatist; you are, in effect, saying that the public are way, way too thick to even understand the basic pros and cons of being in the EU, and what - in basic, summary terms - would be the likely ramifications of staying or leaving. Well, I'm sorry, but this utterly patronising attitude of the Left makes me want to vomit; people need to remember that MPs, civil servants, ministers serve the public, and are wholly accountable to the public.
What exactly about the current state of the Remain and Leave campaigns can you point to to support this supposition?

I mean, those are some pretty words, and I'd like to believe they are true. But I can recall seeing no evidence of that.


Hey, I'm not lauding the quality of either campaign, nor specifically the Tories' contributions to either. I merely take issue, on principle, to Cras' (IMO ludicrously patronising and pessimistic) statements.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:57 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Cavey wrote:
If only Eddie Izzard had plumbed for a more demure beret colour, huh. :(

What, like green? You warmongerer.


:DD

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:01 
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Cavey wrote:
Cras wrote:
Cavey wrote:
I always find it fascinating to note how terrified the Left is of giving the people an actual, real say about stuff, as opposed to leaving such things to technocrats, men in grey suits (more pink berets needed? :D ). The Right just doesn't have this problem.


Politics, economics, and social policy are difficult. An opinion isn't good enough when it comes to something so critical to the future of the nation. There is nothing more important than to ensure that the people making such an enormous decision know what it is they're evaluating and know what the potential ramifications would be. It is overwhelmingly clear that on both sides, the vast, vast majority of the populous is incapable of understanding a decision this momentous (and I include myself in that category). Delegating the responsibility for this decision to the general public is utterly irresponsible. More, delegating the decision to the fucking media is criminal.

Have a referendum on whether we should change the national anthem, or have a bank holiday for St George's day, by all means. Don't have a referendum about whether or not it's a good idea to bet on black or red with the entire future of the nation.


Nah, I'm not buying that. Yes, governance is difficult - democracy is difficult. Took thousands of years of human history to arrive at this point; dictatorships and the like are so much more convenient, no doubt.

This strikes me as ridiculously defeatist; you are, in effect, saying that the public are way, way too thick to even understand the basic pros and cons of being in the EU, and what - in basic, summary terms - would be the likely ramifications of staying or leaving. Well, I'm sorry, but this utterly patronising attitude of the Left makes me want to vomit; people need to remember that MPs, civil servants, ministers serve the public, and are wholly accountable to the public.

This pessimism that people can't even be educated - this whole "can't do" attitude..? Somehow it's "irresponsible" to let people have a true, democratic say in their futures? I'm no Brexiter, but no wonder their campaign is gaining such traction, with sentiments like these. People are sick of this nonsense, and not just in the UK either.


You're misinterpreting what I'm saying completely. I'm not saying people are incapable of being educated. I'm not saying people are stupid. I'm saying macroeconomics and social concepts like immigration are incredibly complex. Unless it is quite literally your job to understand these things it will categorically not happen. I don't want the layman choosing our economic path just like I don't want a layman deciding whether I should have an RSJ put in when I take out a wall in my house. Decisions of major impact require experts to make them. I pay a structural engineer to design my house, I employ civil servants (and their advisors) to make economic/social policy decisions.

It's not about stupid. It's about needing a lifetime of education to be able to understand what's going on. It's about people like the leave campaign saying "People are fed up of experts". It's about people like Murdoch leading entire newspaper readerships around by the nose with lies and scaremongering because it suits his own preferences.

If there was a single bit of documentation out there that people could look at that would give them the basic pros and cons of leaving the EU, I'd be a happy man. There isn't. There are two sets - one biased towards stay, and one biased towards leave. Both sets are propaganda. Both sets swing between outright mistruths and slanted evidence to promote their own agenda. The general public absolutely is not capable of navigating those waters and working out what's accurate, what's lies, what's fact, and what's speculation. That's not a 'can't do attitude', it's simple truth. It is outright too complicated to understand at face value, let alone with the fact that every source of information the public has is slanted to serve a biased agenda.

Yes, it's irresponsible to let people have a direct say in their futures. That is why representative democracy exists and is the cornerstone of every single first world civilisation on the planet.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:01 
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I'm stealing that.

Three shares. You've gone viral, Cras.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:03 
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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:05 
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Cras wrote:
I'm always viral. I can recommend a good cream.

8)

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:07 
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Cras wrote:
Cavey wrote:
Cras wrote:
Cavey wrote:
I always find it fascinating to note how terrified the Left is of giving the people an actual, real say about stuff, as opposed to leaving such things to technocrats, men in grey suits (more pink berets needed? :D ). The Right just doesn't have this problem.


Politics, economics, and social policy are difficult. An opinion isn't good enough when it comes to something so critical to the future of the nation. There is nothing more important than to ensure that the people making such an enormous decision know what it is they're evaluating and know what the potential ramifications would be. It is overwhelmingly clear that on both sides, the vast, vast majority of the populous is incapable of understanding a decision this momentous (and I include myself in that category). Delegating the responsibility for this decision to the general public is utterly irresponsible. More, delegating the decision to the fucking media is criminal.

Have a referendum on whether we should change the national anthem, or have a bank holiday for St George's day, by all means. Don't have a referendum about whether or not it's a good idea to bet on black or red with the entire future of the nation.


Nah, I'm not buying that. Yes, governance is difficult - democracy is difficult. Took thousands of years of human history to arrive at this point; dictatorships and the like are so much more convenient, no doubt.

This strikes me as ridiculously defeatist; you are, in effect, saying that the public are way, way too thick to even understand the basic pros and cons of being in the EU, and what - in basic, summary terms - would be the likely ramifications of staying or leaving. Well, I'm sorry, but this utterly patronising attitude of the Left makes me want to vomit; people need to remember that MPs, civil servants, ministers serve the public, and are wholly accountable to the public.

This pessimism that people can't even be educated - this whole "can't do" attitude..? Somehow it's "irresponsible" to let people have a true, democratic say in their futures? I'm no Brexiter, but no wonder their campaign is gaining such traction, with sentiments like these. People are sick of this nonsense, and not just in the UK either.


You're misinterpreting what I'm saying completely. I'm not saying people are incapable of being educated. I'm not saying people are stupid. I'm saying macroeconomics and social concepts like immigration are incredibly complex. Unless it is quite literally your job to understand these things it will categorically not happen. I don't want the layman choosing our economic path just like I don't want a layman deciding whether I should have an RSJ put in when I take out a wall in my house. Decisions of major impact require experts to make them. I pay a structural engineer to design my house, I employ civil servants (and their advisors) to make economic/social policy decisions.

It's not about stupid. It's about needing a lifetime of education to be able to understand what's going on. It's about people like the leave campaign saying "People are fed up of experts". It's about people like Murdoch leading entire newspaper readerships around by the nose with lies and scaremongering because it suits his own preferences.

If there was a single bit of documentation out there that people could look at that would give them the basic pros and cons of leaving the EU, I'd be a happy man. There isn't. There are two sets - one biased towards stay, and one biased towards leave. Both sets are propaganda. Both sets swing between outright mistruths and slanted evidence to promote their own agenda. The general public absolutely is not capable of navigating those waters and working out what's accurate, what's lies, what's fact, and what's speculation. That's not a 'can't do attitude', it's simple truth. It is outright too complicated to understand at face value, let alone with the fact that every source of information the public has is slanted to serve a biased agenda.

Yes, it's irresponsible to let people have a direct say in their futures. That is why representative democracy exists and is the cornerstone of every single first world civilisation on the planet.


You've pretty much repeated what you said before, and I (unsurprisingly) still disagree with you. What, I need to spend a lifetime being specifically educated about the EU before I can even vote to stay in or out...? Listen to yourself man, it's nonsense!
We need to be better. Our supposedly impartial media (BBC) needs to be better. If there is a lack of clear, impartial guidance out there then that's something that can be readily fixed; what's the annual budget of the BBC again?

Plus you know, people aren't as stupid as you think - not yet anyway. (They might become so, if people like you remove all incentive to even know about, less still influence mega important stuff being done in their name).

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:07 
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DavPaz wrote:
Cras wrote:
I'm always viral. I can recommend a good cream.

8)

:spew:


:D

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:10 
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Cavey wrote:
You've pretty much repeated what you said before, and I (unsurprisingly) still disagree with you. What, I need to spend a lifetime being specifically educated about the EU before I can even vote to stay in or out...?

No, you can vote right now. You'll just simply have no idea at all if you're voting for what's right for yourself, the nation or other people, because you don't have a clue how the outcome will affect anything, much like 99.9% of the population.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:11 
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If we won't agree on the first part, that it's too complex (which is fine, happy to disagree) at least we seem to on the latter - that there is no unbiased media on which people can rely.

Edit: @Cavey

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:15 
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Also a reminder that the face of the leave campaign said the exact words "People are fed up of experts". They're actively campaigning against people educating themselves and specifically want people to vote with their gut, ignorant of facts.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:20 
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Cras wrote:
They're actively campaigning against people educating themselves and specifically want people to vote with their gut, ignorant of facts.

Which is what we'll all be doing.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:21 
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Grim... wrote:
Cavey wrote:
You've pretty much repeated what you said before, and I (unsurprisingly) still disagree with you. What, I need to spend a lifetime being specifically educated about the EU before I can even vote to stay in or out...?

No, you can vote right now. You'll just simply have no idea at all if you're voting for what's right for yourself, the nation or other people, because you don't have a clue how the outcome will affect anything, much like 99.9% of the population.


I don't have a crystal ball, I don't know what the outcome will be when I vote in a government during a General Election either. No-one knows what the outcome of anything will be. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have democracy and vote about stuff.

People vote wrongly all the time; they vote for stuff I don't like all the time, too. Shit, many of 'em cast said votes in partial - even total - ignorance. And yet, still I fiercely defend their right to do so, and fear the alternatives. It's an imperfect state of affairs, but this should not be surprising to anyone.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:22 
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Cras wrote:
If we won't agree on the first part, that it's too complex (which is fine, happy to disagree) at least we seem to on the latter - that there is no unbiased media on which people can rely.

Edit: @Cavey


Indeed ( :) ), but the latter can readily fixed, and should be fixed. We do not need to throw the democratic baby out with the bathwater to do this.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:25 
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The scary thing about this compared to a general election is that we don't get to change our mind in 5 years if it all goes to shit.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:27 
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Cavey wrote:
Cras wrote:
If we won't agree on the first part, that it's too complex (which is fine, happy to disagree) at least we seem to on the latter - that there is no unbiased media on which people can rely.

Edit: @Cavey


Indeed ( :) ), but the latter can readily fixed, and should be fixed. We do not need to throw the democratic baby out with the bathwater to do this.

So you're saying that all laws should be decided by referenda then, as it's the most democratic way of working?

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:34 
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Grim... wrote:
Cras wrote:
They're actively campaigning against people educating themselves and specifically want people to vote with their gut, ignorant of facts.

Which is what we'll all be doing.

There are things which don't require so much knowing of ledges.

Diplomacy. Yeah, that'll be damaged for quite a while.
Sphere of influence. Similar. Because it relies on Diplomacy.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:40 
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Mr Dave wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Cras wrote:
They're actively campaigning against people educating themselves and specifically want people to vote with their gut, ignorant of facts.

Which is what we'll all be doing.

There are things which don't require so much knowing of ledges.

Diplomacy. Yeah, that'll be damaged for quite a while.
Sphere of influence. Similar. Because it relies on Diplomacy.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:44 
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Cavey wrote:
I don't have a crystal ball, I don't know what the outcome will be when I vote in a government during a General Election either. No-one knows what the outcome of anything will be. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have democracy and vote about stuff.

That's why we get to try again in five years if we fuck up, though.

Cavey wrote:
People vote wrongly all the time; they vote for stuff I don't like all the time, too. Shit, many of 'em cast said votes in partial - even total - ignorance. And yet, still I fiercely defend their right to do so, and fear the alternatives.

The alternative is that the people we elect every five years do what we elected them to do, which is make decisions like this.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:52 
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Grim... wrote:
Cavey wrote:
I don't have a crystal ball, I don't know what the outcome will be when I vote in a government during a General Election either. No-one knows what the outcome of anything will be. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have democracy and vote about stuff.

That's why we get to try again in five years if we fuck up, though.


But the principle is exactly the same - people voting for likely momentous, very important stuff, i.e. their government of the next 5 years who, in that time, might go to war or fuck up the economy in their name (and in Labour's case - manage to do both, which is really quite the achievement). So unless you're saying these things don't matter, I really can't draw much distinction between a GE and this referendum. Plenty of things that a government may, or may not do are irrevocable and irreversible too you know.

Cavey wrote:
People vote wrongly all the time; they vote for stuff I don't like all the time, too. Shit, many of 'em cast said votes in partial - even total - ignorance. And yet, still I fiercely defend their right to do so, and fear the alternatives.
Quote:
The alternative is that the people we elect every five years do what we elected them to do, which is make decisions like this.


See above.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:57 
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Grim... wrote:
Cras wrote:
They're actively campaigning against people educating themselves and specifically want people to vote with their gut, ignorant of facts.

Which is what we'll all be doing.

No, not really. I'm mostly going on the what seems to be the advice of the majority of people who have any expertise in the matter rather than a slack handful of fucking wingnuts.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:59 
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Cavey wrote:
But the principle is exactly the same - people voting for likely momentous, very important stuff, i.e. their government of the next 5 years who, in that time, might go to war or fuck up the economy in their name

Or catastrophically taking us out of Europe, fucking up the government and setting back our economy another five years. :insincere:

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 13:09 
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Lulz. Surely you jest.
Ironing.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 13:12 
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Cavey wrote:
Lulz. Surely you jest.
Ironing.

Why? I have never voted for nor supported Labour until late last year. You need to stop with this false dichotomy that everyone who criticises the Tories is a dyed-in-the-wool Labour fanatic.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 13:13 
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Cavey wrote:
Cras wrote:
If we won't agree on the first part, that it's too complex (which is fine, happy to disagree) at least we seem to on the latter - that there is no unbiased media on which people can rely.

Edit: @Cavey


Indeed ( :) ), but the latter can readily fixed, and should be fixed. We do not need to throw the democratic baby out with the bathwater to do this.


How do we do that? Neither the politicians nor the media want an educated populous making their own decisions. So what now?

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 13:15 
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Cras wrote:
Cavey wrote:
Cras wrote:
If we won't agree on the first part, that it's too complex (which is fine, happy to disagree) at least we seem to on the latter - that there is no unbiased media on which people can rely.

Edit: @Cavey


Indeed ( :) ), but the latter can readily fixed, and should be fixed. We do not need to throw the democratic baby out with the bathwater to do this.


How do we do that? Neither the politicians nor the media want an educated populous making their own decisions. So what now?



REVOLUTION! DOWN WITH THE QUEEN! POPULAR REVOLT!
TO THE BARRICADES BROTHERS AND SISTERS AND UNCHAIN YOURSELF FROM THE YOKES OF THIS UNKEMPT MESS! RUSSELL CROWE! ANNE HATHAWAY! THE OTHER ONE!

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 13:16 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Cavey wrote:
Lulz. Surely you jest.
Ironing.

Why? I have never voted for nor supported Labour until late last year. You need to stop with this false dichotomy that everyone who criticises the Tories is a dyed-in-the-wool Labour fanatic.


That wasn't what I meant (at all), but let's not do the whole Labour are shit thing again. Look, they just are, self-evidently and empirically (and even, pretty much, by their own admission and various apologies). End of. :)

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