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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:14 
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MaliA wrote:
Kern wrote:
MaliA wrote:
So, anyway, that Cooper bill, eh?


I understand what it's trying to do but I'm not sure it was the best use of the available time.


I think.it is progress, not efficient progress, but a step forward all the same


Assuming I've read the bill correctly, it does mean that any postponement becomes easier as it doesn't need a seperate confirmatory vote to alter that 2018 Withdrawal Act. Of course, it was a stupid idea to put a date on the face of that Act in the first place, but as we all know, symbols matter.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:27 
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Gogmagog

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Kern wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Kern wrote:
MaliA wrote:
So, anyway, that Cooper bill, eh?


I understand what it's trying to do but I'm not sure it was the best use of the available time.


I think.it is progress, not efficient progress, but a step forward all the same


Assuming I've read the bill correctly, it does mean that any postponement becomes easier as it doesn't need a seperate confirmatory vote to alter that 2018 Withdrawal Act. Of course, it was a stupid idea to put a date on the face of that Act in the first place, but as we all know, symbols matter.


Do you think it was "constitutional vandalism"?

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:51 
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MaliA wrote:
Do you think it was "constitutional vandalism"?


It feels somewhat odd to have an Act to make the Prime Minister do something she should be doing anyway or which the Commons should be discussion. I'd go for 'novelty' rather than 'vandalism'.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:03 
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Incidentally, I'm a little bit concerned that Tezz & Jezz might compromise on a "May's deal or no deal" plebiciste with no 'remain' option.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:15 
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Kern wrote:
Incidentally, I'm a little bit concerned that Tezz & Jezz might compromise on a "May's deal or no deal" plebiciste with no 'remain' option.



I agree

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:18 
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Isn't that lovely?

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Ladies and Gentlemen this is...

https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/11 ... 3846337537



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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:41 
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MaliA wrote:
Kern wrote:
Incidentally, I'm a little bit concerned that Tezz & Jezz might compromise on a "May's deal or no deal" plebiciste with no 'remain' option.



I agree


What’s in that for Labour? They’ve publicly stated on repeated occasions that those are the worst two possible options.

Can’t see it happening.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:46 
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Curiosity wrote:
What’s in that for Labour? They’ve publicly stated on repeated occasions that those are the worst two possible options.


The deal isn't an end in itself. If you can get the withdrawal agreement through, you can still negotiate the subsequent political agreements. My fear is that Corbyn sees that any form of vote would cause May to fall and a fresh general election.

Quote:
Can’t see it happening.


I'm glad you're the optimistic one this week.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:08 
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Kern wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
What’s in that for Labour? They’ve publicly stated on repeated occasions that those are the worst two possible options.


The deal isn't an end in itself. If you can get the withdrawal agreement through, you can still negotiate the subsequent political agreements. My fear is that Corbyn sees that any form of vote would cause May to fall and a fresh general election.

Quote:
Can’t see it happening.


I'm glad you're the optimistic one this week.


Oh, I still think whatever they come up with will be shit.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:18 
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Curiosity wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Kern wrote:
Incidentally, I'm a little bit concerned that Tezz & Jezz might compromise on a "May's deal or no deal" plebiciste with no 'remain' option.



I agree


What’s in that for Labour? They’ve publicly stated on repeated occasions that those are the worst two possible options.


Unconvinced. Labour's preferences appear to be:

1) Unicorns. Specifically labour unicorns
2) Brightly coloured horses with horns on their heads
3) No deal because DELIVER REFERENDUM RESULT
4) May's deal or similar
5) Another referendum LOOK AT THAT OVER THERE *runs out of the room*
6) Remain *pretends not to understand, quickly starts talking about something else*

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:26 
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Isn't that lovely?

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Cras wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Kern wrote:
Incidentally, I'm a little bit concerned that Tezz & Jezz might compromise on a "May's deal or no deal" plebiciste with no 'remain' option.



I agree


What’s in that for Labour? They’ve publicly stated on repeated occasions that those are the worst two possible options.


Unconvinced. Labour's preferences appear to be:

1) Unicorns. Specifically labour unicorns
2) Brightly coloured horses with horns on their heads
3) No deal because DELIVER REFERENDUM RESULT
4) May's deal or similar
5) Another referendum LOOK AT THAT OVER THERE *runs out of the room*
6) Remain *pretends not to understand, quickly starts talking about something else*


At the moment I don't think you can say "Labour" has a preference anymore than you could say the Conservatives have a preference. With both parties you get a different answer depending on whom you listen to.
I'd say that Corbyn want's the above, but others don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:31 
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Don’t disagree with most of those, but I think some form of fudged Customs Union will be their idea of what they want a second ref to be about.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 13:05 
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As long as "remain" is an option on the second referendum, and I'm not by any means convinced it will be.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 14:11 
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Wonder why some people were *so* amendment that things had to happen before the end of the financial year

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKCN1RE0WB

Quote:
BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Britain will have to recover millions of euros from some multinationals after EU antitrust regulators ruled on Tuesday that an exemption in a UK tax scheme was illegal.

The European Commission’s decision, following a 16-month investigation, is part of an ongoing crackdown against multinationals benefiting from sweetheart tax deals offered by EU countries.

“The UK gave certain multinationals a selective advantage by granting them an unjustified exemption from UK anti–tax avoidance rules. This is illegal under EU State aid rules,” European Competition Commissioner Margrethe Vestager said.

The Commission did not say which multinationals are affected nor did it give an estimate for the amount Britain would recover, leaving it to UK tax authorities to reassess the tax liabilities.

BBA Aviation, Chemring, Daily Mail & General, Diageo, Euromoney, Inchcape, London Stock Exchange, Meggitt, Smith & Nephew and WPP are some of the companies which have mentioned the EU investigation in their accounts.

Vestager has already ordered Apple, Starbucks, Fiat Chrysler and several other multinationals to pay back taxes totalling billions of euros to various EU countries.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 14:35 
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Curiosity wrote:
Kern wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
What’s in that for Labour? They’ve publicly stated on repeated occasions that those are the worst two possible options.


The deal isn't an end in itself. If you can get the withdrawal agreement through, you can still negotiate the subsequent political agreements. My fear is that Corbyn sees that any form of vote would cause May to fall and a fresh general election.

Quote:
Can’t see it happening.


I'm glad you're the optimistic one this week.


Oh, I still think whatever they come up with will be shit.

I think that's the very definition of a no brainer.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 17:47 
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Curiosity wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Kern wrote:
Incidentally, I'm a little bit concerned that Tezz & Jezz might compromise on a "May's deal or no deal" plebiciste with no 'remain' option.



I agree


What’s in that for Labour? They’ve publicly stated on repeated occasions that those are the worst two possible options.

Can’t see it happening.

I’d be more optimistic Labour weren’t lead by a man who would be siding with the hard Brexit/no-deal supporting extremists in his party (Kate Hoey, Dennis Skinner, etc) if he weren’t party leader.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 19:08 
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Sweary chat split out

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 19:12 
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Cras wrote:
Sweary chat split out


Bolloxit

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:19 
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47825841

WTF ?


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:27 
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ugvm'er at heart...

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That's what she asked for before, that was turned down. True to form for May, just keep asking for the same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:35 
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Even my daughter has already abandoned this negotiation strategy and she's only five.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:36 
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It's the "Steel of the New Iron Lady" in action, folks.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:37 
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She should try giving them a hug, telling them that she loves them and then asking.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:43 
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chewbacca -future arc welder

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Or promising to tidy her country and go to bed on time for a whole week.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:35 
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Thanks

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Rees Mogg clearly wanting to make absolutely sure he wins the 'Cunt of the Year' award.

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1114088442600857600



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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:56 
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I love how they pivot suddenly to 'The UK has loads of power in the EU and we should make sure we use it'

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:29 
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Let's take whatever positivity we can at the moment. :)

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1114079907749953536




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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:30 
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devilman wrote:
Cras wrote:
Sweary chat split out


Bolloxit


Splitting the cunt from the Dunt.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:47 
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Paws for thought

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that dunt mman gets around

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... rror-movie


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 18:30 
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A really, really good piece by Peter Oborne. (We're pretty much on opposite ends of the political specturm, but I admire him as a man of decency and integrity.)

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... ink-again/

Quote:
Finally – and without naming them – I must state that there are many MPs (and not a few journalists) still marching under the Brexit banner who will read this article with a sympathy and support they do not feel able to declare. They too have changed their minds.

I have, and must say so. Fair enough (you may think), but where is the ringing declaration of love for the European Union? We have seen the passionate beliefs of the Brexiteers. Where’s your own positivity? Where your matching passion for Remain?

I have none. Only a deep, gnawing worry that we are making a significant mistake: a worry that is growing by the hour. Call that negative, if you like, but precaution is negative – yet it is part of our kit for survival.

I come back, then, to a proposition that sounds lame – as quiet good sense so often does. Just this, and this alone. Suspending Brexit will be greatly preferable to the alternative. How many important decisions in our own lives, too, have had to be taken on such a chilly and unexciting consideration? It’s time for a long pause.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 13:02 
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This is spectacular

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/11 ... 9464306689




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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 13:19 
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Thanks

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Heh.

Attachment:
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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:52 
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This is a nice angle on things.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ers-sitcom

Quote:
Basil’s most celebrated meltdown comes, of course, when he is confronted with a touring group of well-to-do, articulate, friendly Germans. His psyche splits: he knows he must be welcoming, but cannot find the mental space or language that allows him to forget the second world war. The MP Mark Francois and his squadron of nostalgia-basted, 1945-obsessed calamity-capitalism spivs are mere tribute acts to Fawlty. If only we had picked up that Basil – far from being a glimpse into the past – was a snapshot of the future, we might have been able to do something about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 13:15 
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Hearthly wrote:
This is a nice angle on things.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ers-sitcom

Quote:
Basil’s most celebrated meltdown comes, of course, when he is confronted with a touring group of well-to-do, articulate, friendly Germans. His psyche splits: he knows he must be welcoming, but cannot find the mental space or language that allows him to forget the second world war. The MP Mark Francois and his squadron of nostalgia-basted, 1945-obsessed calamity-capitalism spivs are mere tribute acts to Fawlty. If only we had picked up that Basil – far from being a glimpse into the past – was a snapshot of the future, we might have been able to do something about it.


Thanks for that. I'm currently reading Fintan O'Toole's Heroic Failure: Brexit and the Politics of Pain and he goes into a lot of detail about English attitudes to the world and how it's shaped the Brexit thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 13:20 
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Isn't that lovely?

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I think a big problem is that the Empire is still thought of and taught as a good thing. Most people praise Churchill etc.

Germany has more recently had to deal with the legacy of The Nazis and as far as I know all German school children have to visit concentration camps and so on.

There is no national confrontation of our past. That, I think, is what really needs addressing in this country and it will lead to a much better environment if/when we do.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 13:33 
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Malc wrote:
I think a big problem is that the Empire is still thought of and taught as a good thing. Most people praise Churchill etc.

Germany has more recently had to deal with the legacy of The Nazis and as far as I know all German school children have to visit concentration camps and so on.

There is no national confrontation of our past. That, I think, is what really needs addressing in this country and it will lead to a much better environment if/when we do.


Agree entirely. It's not just Germany either. The majority of EU countries have to deal with the cultural/societal memory of war, defeat, occupation, and/or dictatorship, all within living memory and some within our lifetimes, and see membership as a way to prevent such a reoccurence. We've tended to overlook that part of it all.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 13:47 
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I don't know if it's so much that people think the Empire was a good thing (though that's definitely true) but more that a good chunk of the country seems unable to grasp that we no longer have that amount of power and influence. The whole 'they need us more than we need them' thing is frighteningly prevalent. A lot of Brexit supporters don't give a fuck for your fact-based arguing because they genuinely believe that the world will just dutifully shift around to accommodate us, because we're Britain and we're fucking awesome. You literally can't argue with that attitude because--as far as they're concerned--there's no roadblock that won't just dutifully sink into the ground in deference to us so why worry about any of it? I mean we do seem to punch above our weight a bit in terms of power on the world stage, but that doesn't mean we can actually survive the economic equivalent of running off a cliff and just expecting gravity to look the other way.

I use 'we' throughout all that, but I suspect it is a bit more of an English issue. While Scotland is justifiably proud it's achievements etc there's much less of a sense of taking things for granted, and much more of a general awareness of our actual place in the grand scheme of things I'd say. Though I'm generalising wildly here because, of course, you'll get mixtures of these two stances throughout the population of the entirety of the UK.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 14:18 
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Bamba wrote:
I don't know if it's so much that people think the Empire was a good thing (though that's definitely true) but more that a good chunk of the country seems unable to grasp that we no longer have that amount of power and influence. The whole 'they need us more than we need them' thing is frighteningly prevalent. A lot of Brexit supporters don't give a fuck for your fact-based arguing because they genuinely believe that the world will just dutifully shift around to accommodate us, because we're Britain and we're fucking awesome. You literally can't argue with that attitude because--as far as they're concerned--there's no roadblock that won't just dutifully sink into the ground in deference to us so why worry about any of it? I mean we do seem to punch above our weight a bit in terms of power on the world stage, but that doesn't mean we can actually survive the economic equivalent of running off a cliff and just expecting gravity to look the other way.

I use 'we' throughout all that, but I suspect it is a bit more of an English issue. While Scotland is justifiably proud it's achievements etc there's much less of a sense of taking things for granted, and much more of a general awareness of our actual place in the grand scheme of things I'd say. Though I'm generalising wildly here because, of course, you'll get mixtures of these two stances throughout the population of the entirety of the UK.


It is precisely this sort of intervention from condescending foreigns that got us here in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:45 
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Another stay of execution.

I'm now thinking about who to vote for in the European elections (sorry, Prime Minister, but I do understand why we're having them). Mostly likely Green, because they need some reward for the consistency of Caroline Lucas's position on all this, and have an established grouping in the parliament. I'm keeping an open mind about the Party-formerly-called-the-Independent-Group but that depends on who they ally with in the chamber and which commission president they'd support. I'm also cooling on them over the whole 'national service' thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:24 
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Isn't that lovely?

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I'm hoping that anyone that is pro EU votes for a pro EU party in both the council and EU elections. I'd love it if everyone voted Green, but I know some people don't like some of their policies Lib Dems or Change UK might be a good second bet, like Kern says depends on where they chuk their hat!

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:39 
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I have no confidence that people will start reporting on the elections as anything other than as a domestic fight, continuing a tradition of completely missing the point about a contient-wide assembly. Turnout might rise this time, however, as there's definitely a European movement in the country now.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:41 
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Sitting balls-back folder

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That's probably just people getting their fill of fancy sausages and cheeses before they're not available anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:03 
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Can't re-member

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:31 
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Noob as of 6/8/10

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There's always one.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 18:22 
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European Elections: worse than death.

https://twitter.com/VictoriaPrentis/sta ... 3790314496




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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 19:07 
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Kern wrote:
Another stay of execution.

I'm now thinking about who to vote for in the European elections (sorry, Prime Minister, but I do understand why we're having them). Mostly likely Green, because they need some reward for the consistency of Caroline Lucas's position on all this, and have an established grouping in the parliament. I'm keeping an open mind about the Party-formerly-called-the-Independent-Group but that depends on who they ally with in the chamber and which commission president they'd support. I'm also cooling on them over the whole 'national service' thing.

Good point about TIG. I couldn’t vote for them because it’ll be opaque which European group they’ll join. (Yes, conscription is an awful policy idea too.)

Always voted Labour before Corbyn, but absolutely can’t vote Labour again while he’s still leader and the party is pro-Brexit, despite their European group being a good one.

Fact! In Italy, parties (usually) put their European affiliation on their electoral logos.
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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:13 
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Of all the arguments against a confirmatory vote/['third' - Ed.] referendum/people's choice, probably the least convincing is that it would divide the country. We're already split, in many directions.

The Prime Minister wrote:
I am concerned that a second referendum would increase division in our society and across this country at a time when we need to bring people together. We can bring people together by agreeing the way in which we can leave the European Union, getting on with it and delivering for people on their vote.


Nothing she has said or done over the last two and a half years has brought be onboard with her plans. That opportunity was last ages ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 18:18 
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Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 1681
https://thebrexitparty.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:54 
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Sleepyhead

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 26829
Location: Kidbrooke
I’m glad we got all this sorted out.

I mean, it’s not on the news 24/7 so I assume we did get it sorted, right?

_________________
I've got a bad feeling about this.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 16:00 
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Two heads are better than one

Joined: 16th Apr, 2008
Posts: 13480
https://www.ted.com/talks/carole_cadwal ... technology

Quote:
In an unmissable talk, journalist Carole Cadwalladr digs into one of the most perplexing events in recent times: the UK's super-close 2016 vote to leave the European Union. Tracking the result to a barrage of misleading Facebook ads targeted at vulnerable Brexit swing voters -- and linking the same players and tactics to the 2016 US presidential election -- Cadwalladr calls out the "gods of Silicon Valley" for being on the wrong side of history and asks: Are free and fair elections a thing of the past?


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