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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:35 
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Isn't that lovely?

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Grim... wrote:
Kern wrote:
Utterly against electronic voting or other gimmicks to encourage 'those hip young people' to vote.

Really? How come?


I think if done properly then it would make a real positive, however, I suspect it's the way it's done in the US that's causing Kern consternation.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:36 
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Oh, I got confused with e-voting.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:50 
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Grim... wrote:
Oh, I got confused with e-voting.


How does that differ to electronic voting? Or is the idea that one involves a machine in a booth and the other can be done at home on the loo?

Each approach creates questions about how to secure and verify the answer, and ultimately having to trust the outcome of the black box. Every change to the system or approach has to be re-evaluated.

Paper ballots are, by comparison, easier to control, secure, and verify. X number of boxes should contain X number of ballots, all with the recognised mark. So long as there are proper processes around who can be around the box, where it goes, and where it's counted, we can have far more confidence in the outcome.

This isn't to say that people still can't rig the system (I heartily recommend 'How to Rig an Election' by Nic Cheeseman and Brian Klaas if you want inspiration), but the level of complexity involved in assessing its security and validity is far reduced than what you'd get from electronic approaches.

There's also the hard-on I get by going to a specified place and doing it, but that's probably just me and my concept of civic religion and ceremony.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:52 
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Malc wrote:
I suspect it's the way it's done in the US that's causing Kern consternation.


Keeping people off the rolls is the bigger issue in the US, but that's more or less a historic tradition over there. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:54 
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Malc wrote:
Kern wrote:
Having a decent voting system would probably help too, but that's another argument..


I'm not sure it is, I think half of the problem is that something like 60% of people (that did vote) haven't voted for the UK Government that gets elected in a while (in Fact, I've just looked through the past 90 years of election results and the last time over 50% of the voters voted for the winning party was in 1931!) This leads people to believe there is no point in voting! Electoral Reform is in my opinion the obvious next step to take.


In fairness, this was probably why turnout was higher than expected in the referendum. People who had been alienated from the system for years came out and voted because it was a clear binary choice on a national constituency.

Sadly, I think too many people believed 'Brexit' was a one-off transaction, rather than something that will drag on for years.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:21 
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Kern wrote:
Paper ballots are, by comparison, easier to control, secure, and verify. X number of boxes should contain X number of ballots, all with the recognised mark. So long as there are proper processes around who can be around the box, where it goes, and where it's counted, we can have far more confidence in the outcome.

It also means more people won't vote. Using a blockchain for voting would be a good candidate, coupled with email verification that you have to pre-register long before you vote (much like the postal system) and telephone call spot-checks. And I'm an idiot, cleverer people than me could work out much better ways of securing the vote.

Also counting the votes would take moments, and we can get new exciting stats such as "between 3pm and 4pm more people voted Lib Dem" :)

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:24 
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Unpossible!

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98% of Tory votes 5 minutes after polls opened. Tea and cake sales surge soon after!


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 13:20 
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gooby pls

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Video's a few years old now but still stands up, I think. Electronic voting is, in many ways, a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and causes many more potential problems than it solves.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 13:27 
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Obligatory:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 13:43 
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GazChap wrote:
a solution to a problem that doesn't exist

I can assure you I currently leave my house to vote.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 13:44 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Obligatory:

It's worth bearing in mind that Munroe has been a cartoonist for the last twelve years. I'm not saying he's wrong, but I also don't think he's God Of Computers.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 13:46 
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ugvm'er at heart...

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Grim... wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Obligatory:

It's worth bearing in mind that Munroe has been a cartoonist for the last twelve years. I'm not saying he's wrong, but I also don't think he's God Of Computers.


I went to a talk he did and met him, he was a bit boring.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 13:49 
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"Our entire field is bad at what we do and if you rely on us, people will die" is a fantastic quote though.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 13:49 
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GazChap wrote:
Video's a few years old now but still stands up, I think. Electronic voting is, in many ways, a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and causes many more potential problems than it solves.

Well now I agree with him because of the Brewster's Millions reference.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 14:05 
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ugvm'er at heart...

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Fun fact insurance fans! If you put your job title as software engineer, it's the lowest risk job title that could apply to us, so lower premiums for all!


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 14:14 
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Sleepyhead

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Trooper wrote:
Fun fact insurance fans! If you put your job title as software engineer, it's the lowest risk job title that could apply to us, so lower premiums for all!


My job title is never in the list, which is particularly galling since I’ve worked in insurance for 18 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 14:25 
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ugvm'er at heart...

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Curiosity wrote:
Trooper wrote:
Fun fact insurance fans! If you put your job title as software engineer, it's the lowest risk job title that could apply to us, so lower premiums for all!


My job title is never in the list, which is particularly galling since I’ve worked in insurance for 18 years.


Insurance professionals typically have a higher rating anyway IIRC, so that might be a good thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 14:55 
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The thing that affects me most is living on a dual carriageway I reckon.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 14:56 
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Probably. Most houses are built next to the side of the road for increased safety.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 14:59 
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Trooper wrote:
I went to a talk he did and met him, he was a bit boring.

I've been to his talks twice and he was very funny both times.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 15:00 
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Grim... wrote:
It's worth bearing in mind that Munroe has been a cartoonist for the last twelve years. I'm not saying he's wrong, but I also don't think he's God Of Computers.

Sure. I mean, you're arguing against something that no-one said, but sure, gl;hf.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 15:15 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Grim... wrote:
It's worth bearing in mind that Munroe has been a cartoonist for the last twelve years. I'm not saying he's wrong, but I also don't think he's God Of Computers.

Sure. I mean, you're arguing against something that no-one said, but sure, gl;hf.

Oh, I figured you agreed with him.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 15:18 
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Grim... wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Grim... wrote:
It's worth bearing in mind that Munroe has been a cartoonist for the last twelve years. I'm not saying he's wrong, but I also don't think he's God Of Computers.

Sure. I mean, you're arguing against something that no-one said, but sure, gl;hf.

Oh, I figured you agreed with him.

I agree with that cartoon, more or less. But that doesn't mean I think he's God Of Computers.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 15:22 
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I'm not sure how he separates computers from planes, to be fair. But the lift thing is spot on.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 15:25 
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Cras wrote:
Probably. Most houses are built next to the side of the road for increased safety.

He said, some day a crazy wild-eyed scientist or a ginger twat may show up wilfully misinterpreting your unambiguous comment. And if that ever happens… *laughs as he pulls out gun* Funny, I never thought it would be you.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 15:34 
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You didn't?!

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 15:37 
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I did.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 15:39 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Trooper wrote:
I went to a talk he did and met him, he was a bit boring.

I've been to his talks twice and he was very funny both times.

:insincere:

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 15:40 
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Lord Humongous

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Who is God of computers?

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 15:42 
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Zardoz wrote:
Who is God of computers?


Ram, son of m'bit

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 16:16 
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Hnnnngh.

Gotta like Ken Clarke though.

https://twitter.com/damocrat/status/1095312564798525440



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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 16:24 
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Bahahaha stupid Ken Clarke - Sony are still going to want to sell us Playstations, aren't they?

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 16:41 
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Grim... wrote:
Bahahaha stupid Ken Clarke - Sony are still going to want to sell us Playstations, aren't they?

Are you being serious?


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 16:44 
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o.0

It was a play on "Germany are still going to want to sell us BMWs".

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 16:47 
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I remember early on in this, before the referendum had been held, there was some interview on BBC and they had one of those boring tiresome experts we're all so fed up with warning about EXACTLY ALL THE SHIT THAT HAS HAPPENED, and he was countered by Nigel Evans (MP, Cons), who literally just laughed it all off like it was nothing and exclaimed 'But the French will still want to sell us their cheese!'

How's that looking now, Nigel?

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 16:48 
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Grim... wrote:
o.0

It was a play on "Germany are still going to want to sell us BMWs".

Phew, I did wonder


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 18:42 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Bahahaha stupid Ken Clarke - Sony are still going to want to sell us Playstations, aren't they?

Are you being serious?

Your irony radar has been off a bit lately.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 23:09 
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Can you dig it?

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Kern wrote:
and I am uncomfortable with compulsory voting.


I'm a little torn on this, personally. Why are you uncomfortable with it?

While I bristle slightly at being forced by The Man to do things outside of my normally established sets of routines; as you say voting is an important thing and isn't that disruptive, really, in the scheme of things. It's not hard to go to a musty hall and scribble on some paper. Overall I think that I'm probably mildly in favour of compulsory voting as long as there is an option to say 'abstain/reopen nominations/fuck all these candidates' or suchlike. I think I've made a similar post on here before.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:57 
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Sir Taxalot wrote:
Kern wrote:
and I am uncomfortable with compulsory voting.


I'm a little torn on this, personally. Why are you uncomfortable with it?


It's my somewhat woolly notions of voting being both a civic duty and as a positive act. People should vote because they want to do so, because they want to vote for something, and because they appreciate it as a collective act that determines (albeit imperfectly) who governs them which is something that doesn't exist in many states around the world. Related to that, deliberately not voting due to a paucity of options is as much a political act as doing so. Not voting because you can't be bothered or don't know how to saddens me, because it suggests that we are failing to get people to appreciate how valuable it is. Yet making it compulsory seems to reduce the shine - turning it into an obligation like getting an MOT rather than an expression of our participation in society.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:59 
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This government has bungled every negotiation it faced and now it's even bungling its bribes

Quote:
It's a kind of unparallelled incompetence. This deal is so manifestly disliked that incentives need to be issued in the first place, and so damaging that the incentives don't actually outweigh the potential losses.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:02 
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2016 - Riches for everyone!

2019 - Scrape the mould off jam, says Prime Minister.

https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/10 ... 3448763393



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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:36 
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https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKCN1Q12SK

Quote:
Ford Motor Co told British Prime Minister Theresa May that it is stepping up preparations to move production out of Britain, The Times reported on Tuesday.

The automaker told the prime minister during a private call with business leaders that it is preparing alternative sites abroad, The Times said.


Didn't see that coming

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:13 
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gooby pls

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Bah! We didn't need them anyway! We used to be world leaders at making cars! Just look at Austin, British Leyland, Morris, Rover, MG and all of those other legendary marques!

LONG LIVE BRITANNIA.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 13:10 
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Christ, this is a fucking disaster.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 13:36 
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When we have something go REALLY tits-up at work, we like to say afterwards, 'Well, that was a bit sub-optimal'.

Brexit would fall into the 'bit sub-optimal' category.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 13:46 
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I say "...because <product I team lead on>."

I'm almost prepared to put blame for brexit on <product I team lead on> but it's probably not fair.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 13:48 
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And as a point of order, the jam underneath the mouldy surface isn't waste until it's thrown away. It's not like bread, or even like often-deliberately-mouldy cheese - no air and the right kind of pH so no mould or other rot.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 14:24 

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https://twitter.com/AlanKelloggs/status ... 2222128129




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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 14:25 
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She must be a riot at the Maidenhead WI.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:25 
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A very ]melancholic speech made by cross-bencher Lord Wilson of Dinton yesterday:

Quote:
Nobody is going to get what they want from this Brexit saga. The Brexiteers are not going to get what they want. I think the Brexit dream is slowly dying. I fear we remainers may not get what we want, although I should be delighted if some deus ex machina emerges in the final squeeze. I do not think that the scale of what has been done will give business what it wants; I think it will find itself without the certainty it needs. I do not think that the people who wanted to restrict ​immigration will get what they want. It is quite normal in political affairs for nobody to get what they want, but on this scale it is worth noting.
...
What matters now is the interest not of parties, but of the people on the street—the citizens of this country. History will examine what we do very critically. The eye of history is on our generation. The people who will pay the price and who will write the history are the young. I do not think they will be kind. We should prepare ourselves for some very sharp criticism of the period we are in.


The whole thing is pretty gloomy. Happy Valentine's Day.


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