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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 13:18 
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Cras wrote:
Dr Zoidberg wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Cras wrote:
A referendum requires legislation. There's next to no time left to pass it.

It seems likely the EU will extend A50 notification period for a referendum, was my understanding.


But they have confirmed we can cancel it unilaterally.
We could in theory send them the cancellation notice, then a day later another notification of leaving. It’ll piss everyone off, but would be a way of deferring everything for two more years.


They have confirmed we can cancel it unilaterally if we demonstrate that we no longer wish to leave. Specifically to avoid the scenario you state.


I’m not sure where you’ve got that bit in italics from or what it means. Can you elaborate?

Far as I’m aware as long as the government comply with our own internal constitutional stuff we can revoke Article 50. Nothing more, nothing less. Unless that’s what you meant?


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 13:46 
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Satsuma wrote:
Cras wrote:
They have confirmed we can cancel it unilaterally if we demonstrate that we no longer wish to leave. Specifically to avoid the scenario you state.


I’m not sure where you’ve got that bit in italics from or what it means. Can you elaborate?

Far as I’m aware as long as the government comply with our own internal constitutional stuff we can revoke Article 50. Nothing more, nothing less. Unless that’s what you meant?
From the judgment (emphasis mine):

Quote:
In view of all the foregoing, the answer to the question referred is that Article 50 TEU must be interpreted as meaning that, where a Member State has notified the European Council, in accordance with that article, of its intention to withdraw from the European Union, that article allows that Member State — for as long as a withdrawal agreement concluded between that Member State and the European Union has not entered into force or, if no such agreement has been concluded, for as long as the two-year period laid down in Article 50(3) TEU, possibly extended in accordance with that paragraph, has not expired — to revoke that notification unilaterally, in an unequivocal and unconditional manner, by a notice addressed to the European Council in writing, after the Member State concerned has taken the revocation decision in accordance with its constitutional requirements. The purpose of that revocation is to confirm the EU membership of the Member State concerned under terms that are unchanged as regards its status as a Member State, and that revocation brings the withdrawal procedure to an end.
The government cannot just say "we revoke notice to buy time." There has to be a "revocation decision" eg. Parliament passes an Act declaring we are done with Brexit, or a second referendum favours remaining in the EU. That's what Craster means.

You might argue this is a vague clause that could create a future headache for the ECJ as it struggles to define what "constitutional requirements" are in the event of the UK saying we really are withdrawing A50 notification it and the EU saying we haven't met the clause so we can't. Lots of legal experts have said so. But this wording is where we stand right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 14:04 
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What I said then (I appreciate the link, mind, I’ve never read it).

I doubt the ECJ would even have jurisdiction to decide whether a member state had complied with its own constitutional laws. In the event of a legal challenge that would surely be decided by the member states own Courts.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 14:16 
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No, but if we have politicians standing up and saying "We'll withdraw it then resubmit it" (which will happen because our pols are idiots who think that the EU aren't allowed to read British newspapers) then they could quite reasonably state that the decision to withdraw it was not 'clear and unequivocal'

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 14:17 
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Sorry - 'unequivocal and unconditional'

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 16:32 
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Satsuma wrote:
What I said then (I appreciate the link, mind, I’ve never read it).

I doubt the ECJ would even have jurisdiction to decide whether a member state had complied with its own constitutional laws. In the event of a legal challenge that would surely be decided by the member states own Courts.

If the EU decides we have not correctly withdrawn the A50 notification, and starts treating us appropriately regardless of what we say (eg. implementing customs checks), it won't matter who's jurisdiction is important. We're in equal trouble either way. Essentially, this clause gives the EU the ability to declare the agreement to withdraw must be bilateral if it doubts our sincerity.

And my understanding is no, it's the ECJ that rules here anyway. It has legal superiority on matters of contracts with the EU. That's why the ECJ ruled on this in the first place -- it was referred to them from Scotland's highest court.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 16:37 
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Ben Nevis court?

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 17:23 
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Sleepyhead

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markg wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
markg wrote:
Cras wrote:
Grim... wrote:
I have to say, I have some empathy for the people saying a second vote would be undemocratic. It must seem to them that we can just keep on having referendums until the result "they" desire wins.

If we'd voted remain and the prospect of a second vote was looming, I'd be livid.


Of course, that doesn't make it undemocratic. If the result changes, then public opinion has changed, therefore it's very democratic. If the result doesn't change, then public opinion is confirmed, also very democratic.

It's not like somebody would be forcing leavers to vote differently in a second ref.

The results of a vote don't just magically change on their own.

Yeah, good luck getting all the leave voters to see things that way.

If a second referendum went remain it would be an absolute gift for the far right in this country.


Maybe, but just waving through a hard Brexit would be a significantly larger gift.

Appeasement is not a great strategy to try to defeat something.

The idea that we can have a second referendum and put things back to how they were before all this happened is some daydreamy bullshit, whichever way the vote went the country would be a toxic dump with no end in sight. But leaving with no deal would be a disaster, if it becomes a choice between that and another referendum then we should have another referendum.

On the other hand a deal which ends up giving them departure from the EU pretty much in name only and ends up with us rejoining after a referendum in a decade's time is not "appeasement", it's the only way I can think of to possibly get the fuckers back under the rocks from which they crawled.


If we leave in name only then the same right wing ass-hats will continue to bitch and moan in much the same way as they would if there was a second referendum and we ended up staying, especially if we then rejoined a few years later on worse terms than we have now.

The same UKIP twats who were saying that there was no question of leaving the single market, and are now going for a full No Deal mess, aren’t going to be satisfied with anything that isn’t a giant disaster for all involved (other than the rich speculators).

It’s a mess, that’s for sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 22:51 
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Can you dig it?

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Grim... wrote:
Ben Nevis court?


chuckle

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:54 
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Curiosity wrote:
markg wrote:
On the other hand a deal which ends up giving them departure from the EU pretty much in name only and ends up with us rejoining after a referendum in a decade's time is not "appeasement", it's the only way I can think of to possibly get the fuckers back under the rocks from which they crawled.


If we leave in name only then the same right wing ass-hats will continue to bitch and moan in much the same way as they would if there was a second referendum and we ended up staying, especially if we then rejoined a few years later on worse terms than we have now.


Indeed. The only Brexit outcome that would please the far right would be the hardest of hard Brexits (so no deal) asap, which would obviously be shit, so there's not much point in trying to please them. Anyway, they don't deserve to be pleased, because they are the far right.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:02 
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There's almost, almost a bit of me that just wants to see No Deal happen now, it's the only fucking thing that'll shut the ultras up and it'd be the world's biggest ever 'Told you so'.

Obviously I'd stock up on soup and stuff in the weeks before it actually happened.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:15 
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Hearthly wrote:
Obviously I'd stock up on soup and stuff in the weeks before it actually happened.


Yeah, uh, good luck with that.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:15 
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Grand. Just hoping I've got enough insulin.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:18 
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SavyGamer

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Radroach meat isn't so bad.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:21 
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Hearthly wrote:
it's the only fucking thing that'll shut the ultras up and it'd be the world's biggest ever 'Told you so'.
.


No, the ultras would just blame the EU, the Remoaners, Theresa May, Chris Chibnall, and in fact everyone except themselves. Because they're never going to take responsibility for this.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:27 
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Yup, anything less than the fullest, hardest no deal => "Traitorous Remoaners betrayed us and kept us in the EU".
Fullest, hardest no deal => "The EU is punishing us for daring to leave. This is why we had to leave!"


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:29 
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Yes. This is why all "but the far right will rise up" arguments can basically be discounted, when pondering the various possibilities for where we go from here.

Also, when did government / MPs in general forget the difference between doing what's popular and doing what's right for the country? Cameron/Clegg etc. pretty successfully (though not correctly, in my opinion, but that's another discussion) made the case for austerity, and went ahead with it despite it, on the face of things, being far from universally popular. I don't think it's a great leap now to make the case for remain, despite the previous referendum, or at least for a second referendum, with the electorate being more informed, and (hopefully) less overspending/cheating/meddling from Russia.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:40 
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Looks like the government are trying to shore up support for the Withdrawal Agreement and Mrs May's premiership by playing the race card. Disgusting.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:01 
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Still, at least the Union is in safe hands:

Quote:
Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP) :

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the outcome of the Prime Minister’s recent discussions with the European Commission and European Heads of Government regarding the Withdrawal Agreement, and potential ways forward.

Sir Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con) :

Go back to Skye.


Hansard


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:27 
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It's a pretty good speech. Shame it takes the third party to make it, not the official opposition.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 22:04 
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Cras wrote:
No, but if we have politicians standing up and saying "We'll withdraw it then resubmit it" (which will happen because our pols are idiots who think that the EU aren't allowed to read British newspapers) then they could quite reasonably state that the decision to withdraw it was not 'clear and unequivocal'


Like this:

https://twitter.com/akulith/status/1076154140282314755



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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 23:43 
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https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ssion=true

Allotment wanker.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:36 
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Thanks for ruining Christmas Mr Corbyn! I don't want Labour to be the ones trashing the country just because they'd be kinder about it. Why not just not trash the country?

And the whole state aid thing is not only an extremely niche issue but one that I don't think the left fully gets.

A quick search pulled upthis piece by Mr Dunt last year explaining it:

Quote:
Alright let's do state aid – the last part of the puzzle. This is the bit Corbyn seems to care the most about. Basically, the EU is considered an impediment to socialist government.

Is it?

It depends what you mean by socialism. If you mean Bolshevik Communism, then it absolutely is. If you mean Scandinavian-style social democracy, it is not.

The fact most Scandinavian countries are in the EU is kind of a giveaway I suppose.

Yep. OK so most importantly, let's get one thing absolutely clear. The EU is not an obstacle to national ownership of anything. Part seven, article 345, of the general and final provisions of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union….

You're such a dick.

...is explicit about this. It says: "The treaties shall in no way prejudice the rules in member states governing the system of property ownership." The EU can't stop you taking the railways, say, or water, into public ownership. Nor can it stop a government becoming the majority shareholder in a car firm


There's a few more paragraphs so worth reading it in full.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:51 
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MaliA wrote:
https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/21/jeremy-corbyn-labour-policy-leaving-eu?__twitter_impression=true

Allotment wanker.


Do Labour offer a subscription deal so you join then tear up your membership card in disgust on a rolling basis?


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:02 
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So Labour’s economic ‘plan’ for Brexit is to prop up declining old-fashioned industries with copious amounts of taxpayers’ cash, while killing modern services and manufacturing due to being out of the single market?

A Corbyn government will be economic Armageddon.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 14:40 
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Brexit, it's war!

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 14:46 
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If nothing else, we are currently in no negotiations with Brussels.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 15:38 
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Labour activists were outside my local station this morning with signs complaining about rail fares. Brought up Brexit to some of them, saying that’s far more urgent an issue to the wellbeing of the public, and got any earful about the ‘neoliberal EU’ making railways expensive and privatised. Fucking Trot idiots.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 17:37 
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Meanwhile...

...but...

Is he just coming up with a list of increasingly unlikely things (general election, May negotiating a deal people actually like) that have to happen before he'll evening think about considering the possibility of speculating about maybe having a people's vote?


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 17:45 
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“What we will do is vote against having no deal, we’ll vote against Theresa May’s deal”

I wonder if this is a prelude to whipping Labour to abstain on the Withdrawal Agreement vote later this month. I suspect this because it would be perhaps the most useless and cowardly thing he could do, and he appears to be a useless coward.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 18:45 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
“What we will do is vote against having no deal, we’ll vote against Theresa May’s deal”

I wonder if this is a prelude to whipping Labour to abstain on the Withdrawal Agreement vote later this month. I suspect this because it would be perhaps the most useless and cowardly thing he could do, and he appears to be a useless coward.


It will be hailed as a masterstroke.

Just like Napoleon and the windmill.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:20 
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Looks like the company the government has given £14M to run ferry services in a No Deal Brexit scenario (the one that has no ferries), copied their terms and conditions from Deliveroo and did a find and replace on Deliveroo.

https://seabornefreight.com/terms

This will probably get changed so here's a screeny as an example.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:30 
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I like how their Timetable page has a screenshot of a login form that takes you to Google when you click it. Also that they spell timetable as two words.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 14:29 
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They have hastily reworked many areas of the site. They got called out live on the James O'Brien show and it hit the 'Twittersphere' pretty much immediately.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 22:44 
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Can you dig it?

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Sometimes, I'm a little bit embarrassed by all this. Luckily a lot of this stuff doesn't make the general news over in Aus and as such it isn't at the forefront of peoples thoughts, but it seems the general view, whenever anyone does talk about it, is "what the fuck are you guys doing?"

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 23:17 
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Sir Taxalot wrote:
"what the fuck are you guys doing?"


In fairness, only the stupid people in the country actually want this; which is probably your go-to best response if you're feeling embarrassed by the entire shitshow (which I perfectly understand).


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 23:22 
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Also, I'm led to believe that Australian politics is as sadly batshit as every other major country has become in recent years so a list of, "Well, yeah, but look at what our country has done since Brexit!" arguments might not be hard to come by as a balancing factor.

Fuck sake. Everything's basically broken and/or on fire really isn't it?


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 23:27 
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Bamba wrote:
Sir Taxalot wrote:
"what the fuck are you guys doing?"


In fairness, only the stupid people in the country actually want this; which is probably your go-to best response if you're feeling embarrassed by the entire shitshow (which I perfectly understand).


We are not allowed to call the bunch of bone headed morons that just voted for their very own jobs, hopes, and dreams to go down the shitter 'stupid' as it is counterproductive to something.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 23:31 
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MaliA wrote:
Bamba wrote:
Sir Taxalot wrote:
"what the fuck are you guys doing?"


In fairness, only the stupid people in the country actually want this; which is probably your go-to best response if you're feeling embarrassed by the entire shitshow (which I perfectly understand).


We are not allowed to call the bunch of bone headed morons that just voted for their very own jobs, hopes, and dreams to go down the shitter 'stupid' as it is counterproductive to something.


Still, a cold snap and an underfunded public health service should get rid of some of them. Cut the winter due allowance, too, I say.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:31 
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Can you dig it?

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Bamba wrote:
Also, I'm led to believe that Australian politics is as sadly batshit as every other major country has become in recent years so a list of, "Well, yeah, but look at what our country has done since Brexit!" arguments might not be hard to come by as a balancing factor.

Fuck sake. Everything's basically broken and/or on fire really isn't it?


I think it's all a really big mess, yeah. Over here, the renewable/fossil issue has been stuffed up reet proper and it seems like everyone is pretty much pissed off at just everything. Unless there is someone really able to lead the country out of the mess, it seems like a downward spiral from here. But as you say, it's not just this country, or that, but a lot of countries acting bonkers.

I do also find it strange, living in a federation, with each state can have differing regulations. I couldn't say if it's better or worse (than what?) but coming from the UK it did feel odd.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:10 
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Sir Taxalot wrote:
I do also find it strange, living in a federation, with each state can have differing regulations. I couldn't say if it's better or worse (than what?) but coming from the UK it did feel odd.


I've long been a fan of a form of federated UK, assuming that the English problem can be solved (England would be even more dominant in any structure than even Prussia was, but the existing regions don't seem to make any natural cultural or geographic sense - the growth in city and regional mayors might be the answer here), but the question I always struggle with is how much variation across the country in key areas such as health is acceptable. We'd also need a strong system of financial transfers to ensure the less well-off regions are able to actually do stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:39 
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Erm, wow!


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:46 
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Is that someone you know? I suspect some trolling because ‘ruel feeline angery’. I think most of this is people taking the piddle with the occasional actual stupid. But maybe I’m being generous.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:50 
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This has appeared on Twitter, source unverified yet.

Is this really where we're at?

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:59 
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Mimi wrote:
Is that someone you know? I suspect some trolling because ‘ruel feeline angery’. I think most of this is people taking the piddle with the occasional actual stupid. But maybe I’m being generous.


Nope, saw it posted elsewhere. I’d really hope it’s a spoof and the all caps reply looks like one.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:59 
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Epi pens are already restricted and Pharmacists won’t fulfill prescriptions so you have to accept one or none. I couldn’t get my son’s medication as there was a shortage of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:02 
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Dr Zoidberg wrote:
Mimi wrote:
Is that someone you know? I suspect some trolling because ‘ruel feeline angery’. I think most of this is people taking the piddle with the occasional actual stupid. But maybe I’m being generous.


Nope, saw it posted elsewhere. I’d really hope it’s a spoof and the all caps reply looks like one.


The sceptic in me cant help but wonders if a good amount of this furore isn’t being whipped up by Greggs head office.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:03 
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Dr Zoidberg wrote:
Mimi wrote:
Is that someone you know? I suspect some trolling because ‘ruel feeline angery’. I think most of this is people taking the piddle with the occasional actual stupid. But maybe I’m being generous.


Nope, saw it posted elsewhere. I’d really hope it’s a spoof and the all caps reply looks like one.


So it's a real thing that's appearing in GP Surgeries in the UK?

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:41 
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Hearthly wrote:
So it's a real thing that's appearing in GP Surgeries in the UK?


I think your referring to your image rather than the quoted messages which are about the sausage rolls :-)

Your one links back to a facebook page where there are a number of people who are skeptical about it being real or not - I would think its 'fake' or at least not an official poster however thats a guess (because of the wording / colours / fonts / presentation rather than anything else).


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:59 
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Hearthly wrote:
This has appeared on Twitter, source unverified yet.

Is this really where we're at?

Attachment:
Screenshot 2019-01-04 at 10.42.49.png

Nothing on the news, so I suspect it's unlikely.

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