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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:46 
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Thanks

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Still doing a better job than the Tories.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:02 
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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:04 
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Ooohhh is this the multi-department report about the scale of the disaster that the government won't release?

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:15 
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No, according to the thread it's dated before the referendum, and it's specific to No Deal. It's pretty brutal though.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:32 
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'Project Fear'.
'Experts'
'Take back Control'

Etc etc etc


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:03 
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Unpossible!

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We need a second referendum, now that all the facts are laid bare.

*sobs into a crumpled union jack*


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:06 
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Can't undo the Will of the People (TM).

Brexit policy, yesterday:

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:17 
Awesome
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Yes

Joined: 6th Apr, 2008
Posts: 11702
Got this as en email today.
Quote:
Dear Russell Codd,

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Put the final Brexit deal to a referendum with revoking Article 50 as an option.”.

Government responded:

On 23 June 2016 the British people voted to leave the European Union. The UK Government is clear that it is now its duty to implement the will of the people and so there will be no second referendum.

On 23 June 2016 the British people voted to leave the European Union. The referendum was the largest democratic mandate in UK political history. In the 2017 General Election more than 85% of people voted for parties committed to respecting that result.

There must be no attempts to remain inside the European Union, no attempts to rejoin it through the back door, and no second referendum. The country voted to leave the European Union, and it is the duty of the Government to make sure we do just that. Rather than second guess that decision, the challenge now is to make a success of it - not just for those who voted leave but for every citizen of the United Kingdom, bringing together everyone in a balanced approach that respects the decision to leave the political structure of the EU but builds a strong relationship between the UK and the EU as neighbours, allies and partners.

Since the referendum, the whole of Government has undertaken a huge work programme to make sure that we begin negotiations from a position of strength. This has included analysis of over 50 sectors of the economy. Ministers have also travelled up and down the country to listen to the hopes and concerns of businesses, civil society and the general public.

Parliament passed an Act with a clear majority giving the Prime Minister the power to trigger Article 50, which she did on 29 March in a letter to the President of the European Council, Donald Tusk.

In her speech in Florence on Friday 22 September, the Prime Minister set out a creative and pragmatic approach to securing a new, deep and special partnership with the European Union. The speech set the tone for the fourth and fifth rounds of negotiation talks on Monday 25 September and Tuesday 10 October . The talks were robust, constructive and have given us a lot to be positive about.

The people of the United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union, but we are not leaving Europe. We want a deep and special partnership with the EU. We aim to get the right deal abroad and the right deal for people here at home. We will deliver a country that is stronger, fairer, more united and more outward-looking than ever before.

As a matter of firm policy, our notification will not be withdrawn for the simple reason that the majority of the British people voted to leave. We are determined to see that instruction through and now look forward to forging a new relationship with the European Union.

Department for Exiting the European Union

Click this link to view the response online:

https://petition.parliament.uk/archived ... sponse=yes

The Petitions Committee will take a look at this petition and its response. They can press the government for action and gather evidence. If this petition reaches 100,000 signatures, the Committee will consider it for a debate.

The Committee is made up of 11 MPs, from political parties in government and in opposition. It is entirely independent of the Government. Find out more about the Committee: #petitions-committee">https://petition.parliament.uk/help#petitions-committee

Thanks,
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:17 
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Est. 1978

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Kern wrote:
Can't undo the Will of the People (TM).

Well that's fine, we'll stick with the result of the 1975 referendum.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:21 
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Jokes aside, whilst I'm the kind of cynic who would probably pour a good glass of port and watch Rome burn, the whole Brexit disaster, coupled with the Wacky World of Mr Trump is getting me down a lot. I've more or less given up trying to contact my MP because it's clear from earlier correspondences that she's going to tow the Tory line come hell or high water despite, I think, privately agreeing that it's a farce. I find the main Leavers' inability to argue their case without resorting to bland reassurances they can't back up extremely dispiriting, and the general lack of planning despairing. I find people like Sir Keir Stamner and Hilary Benn on the ball, but Mr Corbyn is still on the fence about this and it's frustrating to have this lack of opposition at the highest level.

I think we've passed Poll Tax now and are approaching Suez on our political disaster roadtrip.

I'm listening to less Radio 4 news now just to keep my sanity in check, preferring the calming tones of the Third or my newly-discovered JazzFM (not on FM) and sometimes would like to turn the news off for good and just read about the 1860s but that's poor citizenship.

Rant over; feel cleansed. Happy weekend everyone.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:22 
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Grim... wrote:
Kern wrote:
Can't undo the Will of the People (TM).

Well that's fine, we'll stick with the result of the 1975 referendum.


I mean, what's the point in regular elections?


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:23 
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Unpossible!

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Posts: 34033
Kern wrote:
turn the news off for good


Nearly there, mate. If I didn't have the kid's future to worry about, I'd have my head buried up to the neck in the blissful sands of ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:26 
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SavyGamer

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I didn't have an immediate plans to do so, but I am pretty certain I won't ever have kids now. I'd feel that bringing new life into this world would be a cruel act.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:28 
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Well if only complete arseholes are the ones who are left having kids then we're definitely fucked.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:32 
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Unpossible!

Joined: 27th Jun, 2008
Posts: 34033
markg wrote:
Well if only complete arseholes are the ones who are left having kids then we're definitely fucked.

Ah, crap. Sorry.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:32 
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Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
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They'd be born into a world in which commercial spaceflight and trips around the moon are a real possibility. They'd get to watch Blade Runner 2049 for the first time, weep at Faure's requiem, marvel at the painings of Lowry. They'd have the joy of carol singing, the excitement of riding a bike for the first time, first love, 8th grade piano, first kiss at the mall.

Or they'd make iphones.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:33 
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Mr Russell wrote:
Got this as en email today.


Of the many things that grate me about that message ('no back door' -oooo matron!) is that it completely misses the point of the petition. The referendum wasn't on the final deal, it was on the principle of the matter. We can agree to go a new restaurant, but if turns out that the menu isn't to our tastes, we don't carry on with it. Had the government said 'this is the plan for life post-EU, yay or nay?', they would be on firmer ground. It's the difference between second and third readings in Parliament: do we like the idea of this Act, followed by do we like the proposed execution?


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:34 
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Also, if I were in power, I wouldn't block off such an obvious emergency exit in case things go awry.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:37 
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I think it's a matter of timing, if there's any hope of reversing it then it will take skill, finesse and perfect judgement of the mood of the nation. But fortunately the Tories are in power and they're excellent at that sort of thing!


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:40 
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Gogmagog

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It's disgusting/hilarious/deeply concerning that the Prime Minister went to Europe to beg for a bone to give her a chance of holding on to her job.

Lord M was good on R4 this morning, and was talking up a Labour win at next election. Worth a listen. I like him.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:48 
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MaliA wrote:
Lord M was good on R4 this morning, and was talking up a Labour win at next election. Worth a listen. I like him.


Thanks; I'll check that out later.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:49 
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MaliA wrote:
It's disgusting/hilarious/deeply concerning that the Prime Minister went to Europe to beg for a bone to give her a chance of holding on to her job.


Yeah, they should be coming over here!


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 18:38 
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MaliA wrote:
Lord M was good on R4 this morning, and was talking up a Labour win at next election. Worth a listen. I like him.

You Blairite fuck

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 14:01 
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.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 14:47 
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Paws for thought

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I'm betting that wasn't in the Sun.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 14:47 
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Looks like Private Eye.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 14:59 
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Lonewolves wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Lord M was good on R4 this morning, and was talking up a Labour win at next election. Worth a listen. I like him.

You Blairite fuck


The new labour project was to promote social justice and economic efficiency. I think the people UK did well under the Blair government, especially the less advantaged. Lord m was a trade commissioner in the EU. His views on it are worth listening to.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 16:40 
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Tell the people of Iraq that.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 16:42 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Tell the people of Iraq that.


He said the people of the UK did well under the Blair government. And I tend to agree. That doesn't mean to say that anyone thinks the Iraq invasion was a horrific disaster that never should have happened.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 16:50 
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I find it very dismaying that the Iraq debacle has entirely eclipsed the substantial good that Blair's government delivered, to the point where it has prejudiced people against an entire stripe of centrist political thinking which we sorely miss now.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 16:51 
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Yeah, we ‘sorely miss’ Blair about as much as piles.

Most hated and reviled man in Britain, bar none. Rightly so IMO. Twat.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 17:03 
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Lupine member

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Uh oh, is this the horseshoe theory?

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 17:04 
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SavyGamer

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That must be why the current government are wiping their arse on the good Friday agreement.

Can't wait for them to eradicate minimum wage.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 17:18 
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LewieP wrote:
Can't wait for them to eradicate minimum wage.

No need. Just sit around with your thumbs up your arse while a housing crisis brews and inflation rises, driving up the cost of living to the point where the minimum wage loses all meaning because it's not longer enough to live on. Bish bash bosh, say hello to the hottest new strata of society: the working poor! Work two zero-hour jobs and still rely on a food bank to feed your kids on the days your "employers" don't deign to call upon you. It's a modern utopia for the one percent, my good friend! If you're not part of them, well, what are you waiting for? Just pull yourself up by your bootstraps! Or are you too feckless and lazy, hmmm?


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 17:21 
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SavyGamer

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Aye, I agree entirely, but if the tories actually thought it was a bad idea they would have officially eradicated it rather than destroying the economy in order to fuck over the poor. They obviously believe in it in principal.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 17:21 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
LewieP wrote:
Can't wait for them to eradicate minimum wage.

No need. Just sit around with your thumbs up your arse while a housing crisis brews and inflation rises, driving up the cost of living to the point where the minimum wage loses all meaning because it's not longer enough to live on. Bish bash bosh, say hello to the hottest new strata of society: the working poor! Work two zero-hour jobs and still rely on a food bank to feed your kids on the days your "employers" don't deign to call upon you. It's a modern utopia for the one percent, my good friend! If you're not part of them, well, what are you waiting for? Just pull yourself up by your bootstraps! Or are you too feckless and lazy, hmmm?

How would centrism help this exactly? Blair was just as much in thrall to the City as the Tories are.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 17:22 
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Perhaps they fear there are some limits in their ability to get people to vote against their own interests.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 17:23 
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Lonewolves wrote:
How would centrism help this exactly? Blair was just as much in thrall to the City as the Tories are.

Under Blair we went from no minimum wage to a meaningful one. Seems like that was a step forward to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 17:26 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
How would centrism help this exactly? Blair was just as much in thrall to the City as the Tories are.

Under Blair we went from no minimum wage to a meaningful one. Seems like that was a step forward to me.

What worked at one period or another doesn't necessarily work in another. See capitalism for example.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 17:29 
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If Blair was so much "in thrall to the banks", why did he push for minimum wage, to considerable controversy at the time? Businesses where heavily opposed as I recall.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 17:31 
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You act like the minimum wage was some kind of panacea. It was a good first step, but we've gone backwards since then.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 17:32 
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Lack of wage increases and zero hour contracts have bugger all to do with the City. You can thank retail and the service sector for the majority of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 17:32 
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No, I said it was a good step made against significant opposition. I don't believe I said it was a panacea. So it seems we are in agreement, good.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 17:33 
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Gogmagog

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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
How would centrism help this exactly? Blair was just as much in thrall to the City as the Tories are.

Under Blair we went from no minimum wage to a meaningful one. Seems like that was a step forward to me.


Currently, due to the living wage and a surplus of jobs, getting people to come in day after day is a pain as there's less hassle work.available for same money.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 17:36 
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Cras wrote:
Lack of wage increases and zero hour contracts have bugger all to do with the City. You can thank retail and the service sector for the majority of that.

I blame capitalism as a whole.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 17:36 
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SavyGamer

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Lonewolves wrote:
Cras wrote:
Lack of wage increases and zero hour contracts have bugger all to do with the City. You can thank retail and the service sector for the majority of that.

I blame capitalism as a whole.

We should stop that somehow.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 17:42 
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:DD
I’m off the gym methinks

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 17:49 
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Gogmagog

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Cavey wrote:
:DD
I’m off the gym methinks


Please work on the twitch fibres as when the Glorious Day comes they are considered the tastiest.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 18:15 
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Squirt wrote:
So, what is everyone's predictions for the actual state of Brexit come March 2019?

MOST LIKELY BY A WIDE MARGIN: a transition period that is very similar or identical to where we are today, with no significant progress made on answering the burning questions about how Brexit is actually going to work. [1] Most of the hard questions still outstanding, so kick the can down the road for 2-3 years, maybe even into the next Parliament. This might be constructed as an extension of the Article 50 notice period, rather than a formal transition agreement, in order to make it politically more palatable but it's very similar in practice.

LESS LIKELY: a cliff-edge crash out onto WTO rules. Becomes significantly more likely if May faces a leadership challenge, as we're then much more likely to see a hard Brexit fan like Rees-Mogg, Fox, Davis [2], Johnson [3], or the like elevated. The voices in the Tory party that might bring some sense to the EU negotiations -- like Ruth Davidson or even (fucking hell) Rudd -- will stay well clear of the poisioned chalice of leadership at this point. Varying degrees of disruption to everyday life depending on how many of the details of things like Clear Skies, Euratom, customs inspections for imports, etc have been resolved but the general consensus is it's already too late to implement most of them properly so the amount of disruption starts at "serious" and goes up.

EVEN LESS LIKELY: actual meaningful progress towards a shared understanding between the UK, the EU, and the UK electorate about what Brexit looks like ie. answers to the stuff in [1].

EVEN LESS LIKELY AGAIN: shared understanding and broad agreement from the stakeholders.

EVEN LESS LIKELY AGAIN: cancelling the whole thing.

TOTALLY NOT GOING TO HAPPEN: a formal, final agreement that wraps the whole thing up, trade, immigration, the works. The "easiest deal in the world" as one of our fucking stupid ministers put it. I can't even be bothered to look up who because it's too depressing.

MOST LIKELY OF ALL: extended periods of heavy drinking and light sobbing from anyone with half a clue.

[1] In other words squaring circles like:
a) are we going to have a customs union, and will we be in or out of the Single Market?
b) how is the NI border going to work
c) how are we going to replace our significant goods trade deficit
d) are we going to let our services trade surplus be cut off
e) are we going to continue to be under the jurisdiction of the ECJ
f) are we going to pay tens of billions in the "divorce settlement"
g) what the hell are we going to eat if we can't import EU food
h) what are we doing about the EU citizens who live here
etc etc. A lot of this amounts to "how many of May's idiotic redlines is she prepared to let go." She appears to be getting ready to blink on some of them, based on the press this week about paying the EU €40bn.

[2] fans on ideological grounds ie. fucking idiots

[3] possibly a fan because he is so obsessed with Churchill he needs a great enemy to make stirring speeches about, as that's much more glamorous than actually doing all the boring fiddly bits of politics, he's exactly that fucking shallow, and the EU is all he's got to rhetoricise about.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 18:19 
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Gogmagog

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What the good Dr said.

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