Taking the Brexit

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

@mattholehouse: Jaw-dropping. Corbyn's Labour party refused to share its voter registration data with Stronger In. https://t.co/OOGqId2c88

MaliA · **Posted:** Sat Jun 25, 2016 21:00

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

@mattholehouse: Jaw-dropping. Corbyn's Labour party refused to share its voter registration data with Stronger In. https://t.co/OOGqId2c88

So. The left fucked it then.

As I'm sure I said: failed to get nessage across and labour were catastrophic at this.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

MaliA wrote:

So. The left fucked it then.

I still don't think Labour shoulders more blame than the Conservatives.

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 25594

They share the blame, though Labour through inaction and Conservative (partly) through actively campaigning for an exit. As much as Corbyn has failed people, BoJo and his chums are of course more culpable through their campaign of lies.

Really, though, it's not a right/left, con/lab bland game. I think the right were more likely to vote out, at supporter level, but the issue sat beyond party politics in a sense.

MaliA · **Posted:** Sat Jun 25, 2016 21:13

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

MaliA wrote:

So. The left fucked it then.

I still don't think Labour shoulders more blame than the Conservatives.

As a whole. No. It was the givernment that set the stage.

As part of Remain: They didn't pull tbeur weight as they were preoccupied with infighting. They didn't help as much as they could. I think it's fair to say Cameron would have pushed everything to win this. So, as far as the remain campaign went, they fucked it. Had Labour stuck behind it and formed a pax romana for this period of time, Remain would have won.

Which probably is why is said this as that is when the pendulum swung i think.

Also, first part of my tryptch is in place

LewieP · **Joined:** 29th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 7600

This is interesting.

Map showing where people signing the petition are located

http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.co ... 15&area=uk

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 25594

LewieP wrote:

This is interesting.

Map showing where people signing the petition are located

http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.co ... 15&area=uk

It's interesting, though it would be better to see those areas as a % of elegible voters as population density differences would probably show far higher numbers in some parts of Scotland and other areas.

Dr Zoidberg · **Joined:** 15th Oct, 2010 **Posts:** 5165

What I find most aggravating, is that people are saying they voted to leave for a particular reason and there's no chance that this will achieve it.

Oh another forum I use, someone is saying they went leave because of the numbers of African, Iraqi and Afghans in the UK.

THOSE ARE REFUGEES FROM OUTSIDE THE EU, YOU FUCKING MORON!

Agent Starling · **Joined:** 8th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 1701

I like this article about the Wales vote: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... -ebbw-vale

Quote:

It’s a town with almost no immigrants that voted to get the immigrants out. A town that has been showered with EU cash that no longer wants to be part of the EU.

And the young chap quoted in the piece sounds very intelligent and has clearly put a lot of thought into what he's saying. :roll:

MaliA · **Posted:** Sat Jun 25, 2016 22:09

I read just now that maybe DC has done in BoJo,Gove et al by saying Art 50 would fire the day after. He didn't and resigned, leaving that huge responsibility hanging over the next leader. If they do, they are toast, if they don't, they are toast.

grauniad comments section wrote:

From the guardians comments section:

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

LewieP · **Joined:** 29th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 7600

Plus no "Remain" MP can take the reigns, and any "Leave" MP who turns it down will have no future.

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 25594

Yes, I think he's basically giving them time to mull, work out what to do and then hand the button over for their choice.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

MaliA wrote:

I read just now that maybe DC has done in BoJo,Gove et al by saying Art 50 would fire the day after. He didn't and resigned, leaving that huge responsibility hanging over the next leader. If they do, they are toast, if they don't, they are toast

I've been thinking this for a few days. The Tory leadership is a poisoned chalice for sure. Who would want it, now?

MaliA · **Posted:** Sat Jun 25, 2016 22:14

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

MaliA wrote:

I read just now that maybe DC has done in BoJo,Gove et al by saying Art 50 would fire the day after. He didn't and resigned, leaving that huge responsibility hanging over the next leader. If they do, they are toast, if they don't, they are toast

I've been thinking this for a few days. The Tory leadership is a poisoned chalice for sure. Who would want it, now?

I have edited in the full bit.

Grim... · **Posted:** Sat Jun 25, 2016 22:17

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

MaliA wrote:

I read just now that maybe DC has done in BoJo,Gove et al by saying Art 50 would fire the day after. He didn't and resigned, leaving that huge responsibility hanging over the next leader. If they do, they are toast, if they don't, they are toast

I've been thinking this for a few days. The Tory leadership is a poisoned chalice for sure. Who would want it, now?

I'll do it, fuck it. Give me the keys!

Grim... · **Posted:** Sat Jun 25, 2016 22:18

Who wants to be a minister?

LewieP · **Joined:** 29th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 7600

Can I be the Minister for Burgers, Chocolate and Booze?

MaliA · **Posted:** Sat Jun 25, 2016 22:26

MaliA wrote:

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

MaliA wrote:

So. The left fucked it then.

I still don't think Labour shoulders more blame than the Conservatives.

As a whole. No. It was the givernment that set the stage.

As part of Remain: They didn't pull tbeur weight as they were preoccupied with infighting. They didn't help as much as they could. I think it's fair to say Cameron would have pushed everything to win this. So, as far as the remain campaign went, they fucked it. Had Labour stuck behind it and formed a pax romana for this period of time, Remain would have won.

Which probably is why is said this as that is when the pendulum swung i think.

Also, first part of my tryptch is in place

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... yn-must-go

Tristram Hunt on the woes of the party. I broadly agree.

Malc · **Posted:** Sat Jun 25, 2016 22:27

Mimi wrote:

LewieP wrote:

This is interesting.

Map showing where people signing the petition are located

http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.co ... 15&area=uk

It's interesting, though it would be better to see those areas as a % of elegible voters as population density differences would probably show far higher numbers in some parts of Scotland and other areas.

Yeah, the south hams area (where I live, and voted to remain) has 3100 signatures, just under 30,000 people voted to remain out of about 55,000 who voted in total (80% turn out).

So that's over 1/10th of the people who voted remain signing that petition or just over 4.5% of the electorate.

Zardoz · **Posted:** Sat Jun 25, 2016 22:30

Grim... wrote:

Who wants to be a minister?

Yeah, fuck it, why not.

MaliA · **Posted:** Sat Jun 25, 2016 22:34

Grim... wrote:

Who wants to be a minister?

Foreign minister, please.

markg · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 16560

MaliA wrote:

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

MaliA wrote:

So. The left fucked it then.

I still don't think Labour shoulders more blame than the Conservatives.

As a whole. No. It was the givernment that set the stage.

As part of Remain: They didn't pull tbeur weight as they were preoccupied with infighting. They didn't help as much as they could. I think it's fair to say Cameron would have pushed everything to win this. So, as far as the remain campaign went, they fucked it. Had Labour stuck behind it and formed a pax romana for this period of time, Remain would have won.

Which probably is why is said this as that is when the pendulum swung i think.

Also, first part of my tryptch is in place

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... yn-must-go

Tristram Hunt on the woes of the party. I broadly agree.

I agree too, but none of it changes the fact that we are talking about a few percent of the total vote in a referendum we should never have had.

If someone is murdering someone and you try to stop them but make a mess of it then that doesn't make you the murdering cunt.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

I'll take Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, obv.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

MrChris wrote:

I predict that, in the long run (say 5 years), this will end up having made very little difference to anything at all, and everyone who got so ridiculously het up about this (on both sides) will, if they have any humility, feel a little bit silly.

https://www.facebook.com/GregsMessenger ... 2466782653

Two days. Two days' worth of the racists feeling empowered by the result.

Cavey · **Posted:** Sat Jun 25, 2016 23:35

Dear all,

Please sign NOW. Thanks

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

Malc · **Posted:** Sat Jun 25, 2016 23:40

Cavey wrote:

Dear all,

Please sign NOW. Thanks

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

The typo really annoys me! Also, I really can't see it being passed, can you imagine the backlash?

Cavey · **Posted:** Sat Jun 25, 2016 23:41

zaphod79 · **Joined:** 16th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 14490

MaliA wrote:

I read just now that maybe DC has done in BoJo,Gove et al by saying Art 50 would fire the day after. He didn't and resigned, leaving that huge responsibility hanging over the next leader. If they do, they are toast, if they don't, they are toast.

grauniad comments section wrote:

From the guardians comments section:
>SNIP<

That is really well put and makes perfect sense.

So what are the other alternatives here , whoever gets leadership , and then goes to the country with a snap general election - if you can have the in or out parties and see which one wins - I think you would have a lot of scared people who would vote right now for a party that said 'we will not execute article 50 in our time in parliament'

And possibly one for the politics thread - Cavey if that happened and the choices were 5 years of labour (who say they would not leave) or a conservative group (who said they would) - could you bring yourself to vote against the tories if that were the choice ?

I have never voted for the Conservative candidate / i voted remain / if the choice were 5 years of just about any government vs leaving the EU i'd put my X down to vote for the monster raving loonies

zaphod79 · **Joined:** 16th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 14490

Malc wrote:

Cavey wrote:

Dear all,

Please sign NOW. Thanks

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

The typo really annoys me! Also, I really can't see it being passed, can you imagine the backlash?

It wont be passed but it will be discussed and at nearly midnight its going up by around 250 'votes' every 10 seconds or so

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Tim Fallon has apparently just said that if there were a GE before article 50 was invoked, the Lib Dems would dump the referendum and keep us in the EU if elected. A hell of a long shot, but a solid strategy for them.

Malc · **Posted:** Sat Jun 25, 2016 23:49

Cavey wrote:

:insincere: :roll:

There will be riots and goodness knows what else. I have no idea if that will be worse than what we have now. I have come to the conclusion that whatever happens now we're fucked.

I also expect that Isis will endeavour to take advantage of this, we've forgotten about them, you can bet they have not forgotten about us. Either Isis or someone who claims to have been inspired by them.

Cavey · **Posted:** Sat Jun 25, 2016 23:51

zaphod79 · **Joined:** 16th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 14490

Cavey wrote:

:insincere: :belm:

Cavey the thing is I'm pretty sure everyone who voted remain , still wants to remain
I'm also pretty sure that *some* people who voted leave now want to change their mind - however even if we say thats 10% of all those who voted for leave - that still leaves around 15 million people who voted for something , 'won' and then will not get their way because some other people want to change the rules

The fact that its getting people involved is good but there is no chance that this poll its actually going to be used as the reason to change things.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36629324

Quote:

The fact that more than one and a half million people have signed a petition calling for a second EU referendum has attracted a lot of attention - but it has zero chance of being enacted.

The main reason is that it is asking for retrospective legislation. It suggests another referendum is required because the winning side got less than 60% of the vote, and there was less than a 75% turnout.

You can have thresholds in referendums.

Anonymous X · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 2046

Cavey wrote:

Dear all,

Please sign NOW. Thanks

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

Signed. No idea if it'll work, but I still consider it worth taking a shot.

Warhead · Noob as of 6/8/10

Signed. I also doubt that it will happen, but it would be interesting to see if the margin changed at all, now that some of those barm pots who voted to leave may now understand what that actually means.

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 25594

I think I'll do education. I'm really good at the core subjects: space, deep sea creatures and DINOSAURS.

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 25594

I signed when it was quite new, as well as my brothers. It will almost certainly come to nothing, but even as a show as a strength of numbers for dislike of the campaign, result and general state of things, it felt like something.

Is there any way that the public can trigger the need for a GE? Without, like, rioting. Mass protest?

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38467

Instruct their MPs on mass to vote no confidence in the government

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 25594

DavPaz wrote:

Instruct their MPs on mass to vote no confidence in the government

But that would rely on Conservative MPs voting against their own government to trigger a GE that could see them out.

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38467

Mimi wrote:

DavPaz wrote:

Instruct their MPs on mass to vote no confidence in the government

But that would rely on Conservative MPs voting against their own government to trigger a GE that could see them out.

Democracy!

asfish · **Joined:** 5th Dec, 2010 **Posts:** 3353

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_aud ... s/36630879

We should have another referendum

A guy who has a fruit stall in Sheffield selling mountains of Spanish Cherry's, telling the BBC he voted leave, but didn't think it would happen and now has reservations.

MaliA · **Posted:** Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:29

No. We shouldn't. Those with misgivings about the way they voted have to deal with it. It's absurdly arrogant if anyone to demand a second referendum if you don't like the result of the first. It'd better serve their cause to petition to disenfranchise the elderly and the poor going forwards.

Grim... · **Posted:** Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:30

"We must have a referendum on this thing that no-one can possibly underatand! Democracy!"
/wrong side wins
"Fuck that result we should do it again because people didn't understand!"

asfish · **Joined:** 5th Dec, 2010 **Posts:** 3353

MaliA wrote:

No. We shouldn't. Those with misgivings about the way they voted have to deal with it. It's absurdly arrogant if anyone to demand a second referendum if you don't like the result of the first. It'd better serve their cause to petition to disenfranchise the elderly and the poor going forwards.

You don't think that both sides, especially leave used utter lies to persuade people to vote for them?

I think there are a lot of people who believed that we would spend 350m a week on the NHS and that there would be more jobs as immigrants would go etc

Many see this now as the bollocks it was and regret their vote.

I don't see why its absurdly arrogant to have a 2nd referendum, the very institution we have just voted to leave have no issues with it. Look at the Lisbon treaty and Ireland.

devilman · **Posted:** Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:53

Just wanted to say that it has been nice to pop by here over the past few days just to read the comments of sane (well, ish) people. 63% of my home town voted to leave and my Facebook feed has been cluttered with less-than-gracious 'winners' saying that people who voted to remain are doom mongers who don't know what is going to happen. Never mind the fact that nobody knows for sure, which is why we rely on experts for their informed opinions, which fell on deaf ears anyway.

It felt like picking a 500-1 shot on the Grand National because 'you never know!' and then boasting after it makes it past the first fence without being shot.

Anyway, just wanted to say keep up the good work.

asfish · **Joined:** 5th Dec, 2010 **Posts:** 3353

Grim... wrote:

"We must have a referendum on this thing that no-one can possibly underatand! Democracy!"
/wrong side wins
"Fuck that result we should do it again because people didn't understand!"

People may not have understood the issues and impacts, but no question they understood the lies spread by both sides and voted accordingly.

Have a look at Sajid Javid, trying to get out of justifying his remain lies and bullshit by Andrew Marr, he is no different from Farage in that respect

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_aud ... s/36633364

LewieP · **Joined:** 29th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 7600

My reading of the Javid interview is different.

He was telling the truth prior to the result. He's lying now.

Edit: It's a shame Tom Watson can't ever be leader, at least until Murdoch dies. He's one of the few MPs not embarrassing himself
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/ ... dum-resign

LewieP · **Joined:** 29th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 7600

Nicola Sturgeon says she's open to vetoing a UK EU exit.
https://youtu.be/mJs2HyPpps0

zaphod79 · **Joined:** 16th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 14490

I've seen this joke tweeted in the past but i do wonder how much of the country (the whole UK) would vote for a SNP government

http://www.snp.org/our_vision

Swap 'Scotland' for 'Britain' and see what you get

NervousPete · **Posted:** Sun Jun 26, 2016 15:02

I'm signing that petition, not because I think it will change things, but because it might reinforce the message as to how the nation has been duped, made a terrible mistake, and at least this might aid other European nations in resisting the movement to the right. It's not terribly democratic, and kind of unjust too, but since I'm living in a waking nightmare right now, what the hell. (Be very surprised if libraries and any arts funding exist outside the major city centres after this. Arts funding in Wales at least entirely depended on the EU.)

Guess it's a further fuck you to Farage too.

Be Excellent To Each Other

Taking the Brexit

Who is online