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Political Banter and Debate Thread
https://www.beexcellenttoeachother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10024
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Author:  Jem [ Fri Sep 08, 2017 16:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Ahh apologies, someone thrust it at me as new this morning and I didn't check it before sharing it for the more intelligent folk to dissect. :DD

Author:  Curiosity [ Sat Sep 09, 2017 21:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Jem wrote:
Ahh apologies, someone thrust it at me as new this morning and I didn't check it before sharing it for the more intelligent folk to dissect. :DD


Title

Author:  Jem [ Sat Sep 09, 2017 22:41 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Longest title ever

Author:  MrChris [ Sun Sep 10, 2017 22:11 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Jem wrote:
Longest title ever

... title?

Author:  Doctor Glyndwr [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

http://www.esquire.co.uk/culture/longfo ... e-revenge/

Quote:
Osborne seems to reserve his choicest weapons for Theresa May, the beleaguered prime minister. On his first day as editor, the front page of the Standard announced "Brussels twists knife on Brexit [as] EU chief mocks PM May with her own 'Strong and Stable' leadership slogan". The attacks on May have become only more intense since then. (One clinical sentence in a Standard editorial from 21 June simply read: "Enough of this nonsense.") Osborne's animus against May is complicated in origin — personal, political, ideological, tactical — but purely felt. When I met him at the Standard this past spring, he was polite enough about the prime minister. But according to one staffer at the newspaper, Osborne has told more than one person that he will not rest until she "is chopped up in bags in my freezer".

Author:  Cavey [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Yes, he's really quite the simmering ball of resentment and jealousy, huh.

Author:  Kern [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Theresa May should take up the editorship of the 'Metro' in response. It'd be quite fun see their quarrels and name-calling spread out on the seats of the Underground every day.

Author:  Cavey [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

:DD

Author:  Kern [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

A moment of levity in the House of Lords:

Quote:
The Lord Bishop of Chester:
Do the Government have any concerns about the breeding of those Members of your Lordships’ House who wear dog collars?

Lord Gardiner of Kimble:

I hope that the right reverend Prelate knows very well that I am very fond of dogs. I have very good relations with many right reverend Prelates and work very closely with the rural Bishops on many issues concerning the countryside.

Author:  MaliA [ Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:41 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

https://twitter.com/BBCr4today/status/9 ... 2958895104




Ken Clarke was superb on R4 this morning. It's a complete contrast to when Labour throw up someone from their front bench. The one last week was terrible, when questioned about Unions threatening illegal strikes.

Author:  markg [ Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Ken Clarke isn't on the front bench is he?

Author:  MaliA [ Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

No it was poorly worded

Author:  MaliA [ Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... mim-bigzad

This is very important.

Author:  Kern [ Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

MaliA wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/19/home-secretary-courts-amber-rudd-deport-samim-bigzad

This is very important.


Yes. And sickening.

Author:  Doctor Glyndwr [ Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:11 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Kern wrote:
Yes. And sickening.

Fucking disgraceful, although hardly surprising given that May had a lot of form for this sort of thing as home secretary and now she's in the big chair. Pretty logical Rudd would continue along the same road.

Author:  Zardoz [ Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Deplorable. Glad he's back, the guy must have been absolutely fucking terrified.

Is there no comeback for Rudd for going against the rulings several times?

Author:  JBR [ Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:33 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Shocking! She is a serial failure, mind you, (Private Eyes passim, as they say) so not a huge surprise. Not that predictability makes it less shocking.

Author:  Cavey [ Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Must admit I have to agree with everyone else here, that's deplorable and an insult to this Country's fine tradition in respect of providing a safe haven for refugees fleeing for their lives (my own father one of them in 1957).

Bloody disgraceful; the Conservatives have always been the party of law and order; not sure where this farce leaves them to be honest. At this rate I'm going to hate them as much as everyone else.

Author:  GazChap [ Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Cavey wrote:
Bloody disgraceful; the Conservatives have always been the party of law and order

According to that article, they've got previous form - Kenneth Clarke did something similar in 1991 apparently.

I don't disagree with you, although I'd probably reword it to "have always been the party of law and order, when it suits them" ;)

Author:  Cavey [ Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

I suppose if you go back 30 years you can dig any amount of shit about any party, ever.
I'm talking specifically about the post-Brexit Conservative Party; the here and now.

Author:  Grim... [ Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

So when you said "the Conservatives have always been", you were "talking specifically about the post-Brexit Conservative Party"?

It's okay to for the political party you support (or once supported) to be crap. It has to be, because they all are.

Author:  markg [ Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:55 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Cavey wrote:
I suppose if you go back 30 years you can dig any amount of shit about any party, ever.
I'm talking specifically about the post-Brexit Conservative Party; the here and now.

Not sure that the Police would agree tbh.

Author:  Grim... [ Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Huh?

Author:  markg [ Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

I'm not sure that the Police would agree that the Conservatives are the party of law and order.

Author:  Cavey [ Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Grim... wrote:
So when you said "the Conservatives have always been", you were "talking specifically about the post-Brexit Conservative Party"?

It's okay to for the political party you support (or once supported) to be crap. It has to be, because they all are.


Where does that rabbit hole end though? I believe in small c Conservatism as a generic politics; this does not necessarily mean I'm a "Conservative Party Supporter" (we've been here before, many times). If we're talking UK political parties, I look at recent form. I utterly deplore the Conservatives over Brexit and have said so many times; doesn't sound very much like a blinkered "supporter" to me, unlike some I could mention. But, not unreasonably given that most of the actual PLP agreed with me in words and actions these last few months, I believe that Corbyn's Labour is considerably worse again, so it's like comparing a small turd with a big one?

If I'm going to go back 30 years, or even 15 years, this shit is awful but it doesn't compare to going to an illegal war (now that's contempt of court) which resulted in hundreds of thousands of people being incinerated or blown to pieces off the back of a false premise (or worse), or failing to regulate our globally massively significant Financial Sector very largely involved with the greatest global crash of all time, whose reverberations continue loud and clear 9 year on, resulting in severe loss of livelihoods and deprivations of many millions.

I choose to pour my criticism on any political party whom I think is deserving of it and regardless of any of my many detractors trying to beat me with a stick over it; couldn't care less tbh. On this occasion and of late, the Consrvative Party is in the frame.

Author:  Cras [ Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

The current Conservative party and the media that are propping up the right of that party are conducting a constant campaign of boosting the legislative branch and attempting to undermine the judicial branch - the campaign against Gina Millar and the judges who ruled in her favour, the home secretary ignoring lawful court orders, the repeal bill power grab. It's blatant and shameful.

Author:  Kern [ Sat Sep 23, 2017 14:06 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

I'm disappointed that the Guardian haven't quoted him directly, as I have no desire to go searching for videos of Donald Trump, but I would really worry if he actually said this and also thinks this is happening:

Quote:
Trump said this was because drug dealers are currently using catapults to send 100 pound bags of drugs over the existing concrete wall and they are landing on people’s heads in the United States.

Author:  Kern [ Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:50 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Reading the scrolly Guardian live feed thing, it appears John McDonnell is pledging to end the use of the Private Finance Initiative. This is something I support. It never felt right that vital infrastructure such as schools and hospitals could be forced to pay millions every year for a very long time on loans that were worse than what the government could get (Eyes Passim).

Author:  Kern [ Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Country we are not in a customs union with places punitive tariff on key industry in deprived area.

He really must be pissed off on not getting that carriage ride with Brenda.

Author:  Kern [ Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Quote:
Corbyn will insist the policies in Labour’s manifesto, some of which have been fleshed out at the conference, are the “new common sense” in British politics.

Guardian

Argh! I really, really despise politicians saying something is 'common sense'. It's up there with 'that's the cost of 3 billion nurses for the NHS' on my list of annoying political phrases.

Author:  Kern [ Sun Oct 01, 2017 15:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Although I don't know much at all about Spanish and Catalan politics, I can't help thinking that footage of Guardia Civil using violence against protestors is only going to aid the Catalan cause.

Author:  ApplePieOfDestiny [ Sun Oct 01, 2017 16:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Kern wrote:
Although I don't know much at all about Spanish and Catalan politics, I can't help thinking that footage of Guardia Civil using violence against protestors is only going to aid the Catalan cause.

I think we all know what will happen if they tolerate this.

Author:  Hearthly [ Sun Oct 01, 2017 16:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Won't someone think of the children.

Author:  myp [ Sun Oct 01, 2017 20:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Kern wrote:
Although I don't know much at all about Spanish and Catalan politics, I can't help thinking that footage of Guardia Civil using violence against protestors is only going to aid the Catalan cause.

Well quite. Why not let them have the vote and then say it's not legitimate. Sending police in to beat up elderly women and forcibly remove ballot boxes from schools is only going to prove their point.

Author:  MaliA [ Sun Oct 01, 2017 21:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:
Kern wrote:
Although I don't know much at all about Spanish and Catalan politics, I can't help thinking that footage of Guardia Civil using violence against protestors is only going to aid the Catalan cause.

I think we all know what will happen if they tolerate this.


Kernow.

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Nationalism. Great isn't it?

Author:  Kern [ Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Cavey wrote:
Nationalism. Great isn't it?


I'm not sure it's as simple as that. I'm going to be more general than specific on this because I don't know much about this particular case and whilst it's the Internet and these things don't matter, I'd rather throw ideas and propositions out for them to be tested and willing to be educated.

It's more a question of when should unjust laws (or laws perceived to be unjust) be obeyed, what steps should a sovereign entity take to enforce its laws, and how should they respond when the orders of the supreme court are not respected. I don't know what a good responds from the Spanish authorities would look like, but I'm definitely convinced that this isn't it.

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Kern wrote:
Cavey wrote:
Nationalism. Great isn't it?


I'm not sure it's as simple as that. I'm going to be more general than specific on this because I don't know much about this particular case and whilst it's the Internet and these things don't matter, I'd rather throw ideas and propositions out for them to be tested and willing to be educated.

It's more a question of when should unjust laws (or laws perceived to be unjust) be obeyed, what steps should a sovereign entity take to enforce its laws, and how should they respond when the orders of the supreme court are not respected. I don't know what a good responds from the Spanish authorities would look like, but I'm definitely convinced that this isn't it.


I was making a very generic statement: fundamentally, nationalism and its inherent "them vs. us" othering and polarisation of peoples, often living in very close proximity, is a root cause of the symptoms observed time and again the world over, historically and even now in the supposed civilised 21st century, within a major EU State.

This high level comment was hardly intended as justifying the actions of the Spanish State, in fact it was intended as the total opposite, but then, the Catalan political elite themselves seem to have a lot to answer for too. The stock in trade of nationalism: get 'em angry; get some fervor whipped up about how 'unfair' it all is; how great 'we' are vs. how crap 'they' are; get the grass-greener-on-other-side/land of milk & honey grievance narrative going and, with luck, the thing gathers momentum to become self-perpetuating? Nationalism: we see it rearing its ugly head all over the world as History has taught us nothing; Trump's "America First", the rise of the Far Right even in Germany; our own home-grown SNP and the seemingly endless, soul-crushing stream of grievance that pours forth from various outlets like some filthy, reeking, never ending tide of bitter bile and hate. Simply put: it is nothing less than the scourge of our age.

As a One Nation small-c Conservative, I find the whole thing distasteful beyond the pale; the middle ground is increasingly abandoned for one ridiculously swivel-eyed political extreme to the next (and the Conservative Party is far from immune)

Man it's depressing. The world has taken leave of its senses?

Author:  Doctor Glyndwr [ Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Boris Johnson said Sirte in Libya will be a great tourist destination once they've "cleared the dead bodies." How is this man employed? Would he have said this about Las Vegas or Barcelona? No, of course he wouldn't. So why did he say it about Libya, hmmm?

Author:  MaliA [ Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Boris Johnson said Sirte in Libya will be a great tourist destination once they've "cleared the dead bodies." How is this man employed? Would he have said this about Las Vegas or Barcelona? No, of course he wouldn't. So why did he say it about Libya, hmmm?


He really, really, wants to get out. Must be only explanation

Author:  Kern [ Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

I fear he's copying Mr Trump's approach. It keeps him in the headlines, disgusts moderates, but delights the hardcore in the party and makes him immovable.

Author:  markg [ Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Or he's just a total cunt who forgot that he wasn't talking exclusively to his cunt friends.

Author:  Cavey [ Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Was anyone here ever in any doubt, ever, that Boris is a self-promoting tit and total liability who appears to be on perma-leadership campaign mode - or that it beggars belief, and defies all logic that he continues to be a major figure in government? I struggle to see this as either news or a point to be debated, most especially as against a backdrop, for example, where Catalonia stands at the brink of UDI and Spain's partial or total disintegration no less is at stake, with possibly far worse than Brexit implications for the EU?

Still, Boris says something stupid. Again. :roll:
Bigger picture etc.

Author:  Doctor Glyndwr [ Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

https://www.newstatesman.com/2017/10/ev ... conference

Quote:
The Tories love Ruth Davidson

Half the conference auditorium gave her a standing ovation when she arrived. The whole of the room gave her a standing ovation when she left. Then most of them cleared out, which must have made Northern Ireland secretary James Brokenshire feel brilliant, as he was trying to read a speech at them at the time.

In between her two ovations, Ruth mostly spoke about unity: "We're not Leavers or Remains any more. We're just Brits." This is a message you can only send if you don't have to get your hands dirty with Brexit negotiations, but the room lapped it up.

Afterwards she was to be seen making coffee for people at the fake Starbucks in a room called the "London Lounge", just like any other Scottish politician with no ambition to one day lead the Conservative party.


Increasingly think Davidison is a future leadership candidate who is very carefully staying out of the blast radius of Brexit for now. Which is smart. Which suggests we're not being led by the smart folks during Brexit. Hurrah!

Quote:
The Tories still don't grasp the wage problem

Over and over again I heard Tory MPs or ministers congratulate themselves on the record high employment rate. This makes for an incredibly competitive labour market, employment minister Damian Hinds argued.

And yet, if competition for employees was so high, you’d expect wages to be rising, wouldn't you? But they're not: they've basically flat-lined for a decade. And with the pound in free fall, real wages are actually falling. People may be in work – but often it isn’t well-paid or secure work.

"You've never had it so good," strikes me as an argument that will only work when it's actually true.


So why aren't wages rising if employment is so good, then? Why aren't employers competing harder to find employees?

Quote:
Some in the Tory party want to get serious about the housing problem...

Some honourable mentions:

James Jamieson, leader of Central Bedfordshire, who expressed frustration his council didn't have the cash to build more homes, and suggested it might be more sensible to build on some of the scubbier green belt immediately adjacent to London, rather than in commuter towns 50 miles from the city.

Richard Bacon, the MP for South Norfolk, who all but frothed with rage at his party's NIMBY tendencies, and who described Help to Buy as "deeply intellectually flawed and bad".

The leader of a Thatcherite think tank, who told me: "I increasingly think the state should start building again."

It shouldn't be any surprise that the Tories are panicking about the housing crisis, since there's compelling evidence that the precipitous fall in home ownership is a major factor behind the collapse in the party's support among the under 50s. And yet...

...a lot of them don't

There are still plenty of Tories who are far more vocal in their opposition to development than in their support for solutions. And so far, the only significant housing policy coming from Downing Street is yet more funding for Help To Buy, a Cameron-era programme premised on the mystifying assumption that throwing more money at demand for housing will somehow make it more affordable.

The Harrow East MP Bob Blackman summed up the problem when he said: "How do we ensure affordable housing for young people without reducing value of homes people already live in?" Well. Quite.


The Conservatives should be panicking about the "youth" vote. I say "youth" because the crossover age -- the age at which you are more likely to vote Conservative than Labour -- is now 47. People under 45 are 2/3rds Labour voters. This isn't just about idealistic teenagers who will grow out of it, this is people well into middle age. And there's strong correlation between swings against the Conservatives and people who can't afford to get on the housing ladder -- a demographic that is growning fast (analysis here.)

Author:  Kern [ Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:50 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Ruth Davidson is the grown-up George from the 'Famous Five'.

Author:  TheVision [ Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

I confuse Ruth Davidson with that Scottish lady who is on Strictly at the moment. She's a comedian I believe.

Author:  Kern [ Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
The Conservatives should be panicking about the "youth" vote. I say "youth" because the crossover age -- the age at which you are more likely to vote Conservative than Labour -- is now 47. People under 45 are 2/3rds Labour voters. This isn't just about idealistic teenagers who will grow out of it, this is people well into middle age. And there's strong correlation between swings against the Conservatives and people who can't afford to get on the housing ladder -- a demographic that is growning fast (analysis here.)


And being the party of Brexit is only going to remind those young people of why the party doesn't represent them. Heck, if I were advising Mr Corbyn (my fees are reasonable), I'd get him and the cabinet to say 'disastrous Tory Brexit' in every sentence so the party is forever linked to the ['amazing opportunity' - Dr Liam Fox].

Author:  Cavey [ Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

And yet, Labour finished a dismal second, netting just three seats more than their 2010 post Banking Depression collapse under Brown, despite being up against the absolute worst Conservative campaign and candidate in living memory.

Speaks volumes, I'd say.

Author:  TheVision [ Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:08 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Giphy "second comes right after first!":
https://media2.giphy.com/media/K7UlmN6mY0f3a/giphy-loop.mp4

Author:  TheVision [ Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

I was thinking of a Simpsons quote.. Giphy and I are clearly not on the same page.

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