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Political Banter and Debate Thread https://www.beexcellenttoeachother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10024 |
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Author: | Grim... [ Wed Aug 16, 2017 17:10 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Only punches |
Author: | MaliA [ Wed Aug 16, 2017 21:50 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
<did not know who that was at the.time> |
Author: | Kern [ Wed Aug 16, 2017 22:44 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Former Presidents George HW Bush and George W Bush have called on the US to "reject racial bigotry, anti-Semitism and hatred in all forms". When the Bushes unite*, you know the show's over. *The presidents, not the twins... |
Author: | ApplePieOfDestiny [ Wed Aug 16, 2017 23:04 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Kern wrote: When the Bushes unite Title of my porn folder |
Author: | myp [ Wed Aug 16, 2017 23:27 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
MaliA wrote: Moving sideways, slightly: Here is 33 minutes of HATEFUL LIES explaining some stuff about anachists and stuff. Worth a watch i think Anarchists are stupid. The black bloc is somewhat troubling because they smash stuff up because of neoliberalism or whatever and don't have a clear goal. It's dumb but at least they don't want ethnic cleansing so I still don't see how they are as bad as actual nazis? Trying to paint them as such is disingenuous. |
Author: | DavPaz [ Wed Aug 16, 2017 23:50 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Author: | Cavey [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:07 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
DavPaz wrote: Fight neo-nazis *and* receive a Boneless Banquet Box at the same time! Some of these freedom fighters aren't as daft as they look. |
Author: | MaliA [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:05 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/n ... 76407.amp/ Quote: SHIPLEY MP Philip Davies has helped persuade top judges that a female prison officer who smuggled in drugs and other contraband for inmates should not allowed to walk free simply because she has children.
Safak Bozkurt, 28, at the time working at Isis Young Offender Institution in Thamesmead, London, was initially given a two year suspended prison sentence by Judge Martin Griffith at Southwark Crown Court in April. Mr Davies contacted the Attorney General Jeremy Wright QC arguing the sentence was unduly lenient and Bozkurt’s case was then referred to the Court of Appeal where judges substituted the suspended sentence with a 32-month prison term. |
Author: | markg [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:17 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
That's some first class Torying right there. |
Author: | Cavey [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:39 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
markg wrote: That's some first class Torying right there. Don't know the first thing about this; skim-read for 20 seconds in between emails, but it looks like this person was a prison officer at a young offenders' unit, in a position of absolute trust - smuggling in drugs to sell to the kids (by definition damaged, vulnerable young people whose lives are already shattered, probably due to drugs/drug crimes in many cases). So basically a total betrayal of her position of trust, for personal profit. For me, the notion that such a heinous, despicable crime does not even warrant an actual jail sentence is, on the face of it, completely unacceptable? How is this different from teachers smuggling in, and selling drugs to their charges? (In many ways it's actually worse; young offenders are already massively damaged, and more in need of compassionate, fair and competent care than even mainstream young people) But yeah, I'm just an evil Tory etc. etc. yada yada |
Author: | markg [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:43 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
It's his insistence that man and women should be treated completely equally at all times with no other considerations even though if it was the man going to the prison then the children would likely still be with one of their parents. As it is they'll probably end up in care and therefore with an excellent chance of being completely fucked. |
Author: | zaphod79 [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:46 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
So they had a trial , at the trial evidence was presented , and they were found guilty and a sentence was passed , taking into account everything that happened during the trial. For someone to look at it afterwards without being there and to decide 'thats not enough' is fine , however I would expect that to be part of the normal legal system review - not some random minister getting involved ? |
Author: | MaliA [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:48 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
zaphod79 wrote: So they had a trial , at the trial evidence was presented , and they were found guilty and a sentence was passed , taking into account everything that happened during the trial. For someone to look at it afterwards without being there and to decide 'thats not enough' is fine , however I would expect that to be part of the normal legal system review - not some random minister getting involved ? It is, you can complain about any sentence and ask for a review. |
Author: | Cavey [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:52 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
markg wrote: It's his insistence that man and women should be treated completely equally at all times with no other considerations even though if it was the man going to the prison then the children would likely still be with one of their parents. As it is they'll probably end up in care and therefore with an excellent chance of being completely fucked. I guess I'm looking at the bigger picture, not this particular individual's dubious record on gender equality issues or that he's unquestionably a dick - and using this as yet another stick to beat him with, the point is well and truly made (IMO). It's not impossible that on this particular occasion, notwithstanding he's a knob, he may have a point. |
Author: | myp [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:53 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
It's the ramifications of a patriarchal society that sees women as primary caregivers that means women get more lenient sentences if they have children. He'd be better campaigning for more equal paternity leave and convincing men that it's good and ok to take on more of the caregiving to avoid this kind of issue. But of course he won't, because he's a disingenuous weaselly shitstain |
Author: | Satsuma [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:53 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
MaliA wrote: zaphod79 wrote: So they had a trial , at the trial evidence was presented , and they were found guilty and a sentence was passed , taking into account everything that happened during the trial. For someone to look at it afterwards without being there and to decide 'thats not enough' is fine , however I would expect that to be part of the normal legal system review - not some random minister getting involved ? It is, you can complain about any sentence and ask for a review. And that appears to be what happened, so I can't see the fuss. The CoA judges wouldn't give two shits what a Tory minister says and he wouldn't be involved after the AG sent it to appeal. |
Author: | Kern [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:28 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
I don't get why Mr Trump is obsessing about Confederate statues. I thought he only liked winners. |
Author: | markg [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:30 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
He's fucked now isn't he? Surely must be gone before the end of the year. Even all the joint chiefs have seemingly distanced themselves from him. |
Author: | MaliA [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:32 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
It's Coup time! Which is great everywhere except Venezuela. |
Author: | Kern [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:34 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
markg wrote: Even all the joint chiefs have seemingly distanced themselves from him. Quite openly too. The military is, of course, one of the most diverse organisations in the USA, which probably irks Mr Trump and his supporters despite their proclamations of patriotism. I can't see him going quietly, however. |
Author: | devilman [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:35 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
markg wrote: He's fucked now isn't he? Surely must be gone before the end of the year. It certainly seems that way - Associating with him is proving to be toxic, as the Business Council thing showed. Might sound odd, but I'd still quite like him to do one or two more stupid things, just enough so that even his die hard supporters turn against him. Er, as long as it's not starting a war or something.. just some of his usual gaffes will do. |
Author: | Cras [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:37 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
markg wrote: He's fucked now isn't he? Surely must be gone before the end of the year. Even all the joint chiefs have seemingly distanced themselves from him. The thing is, there's no real mechanism short of impeachment, and until Mueller's done, there's probably nothing impeachable. The only thing that gets him out is if republicans decide that he's going to get them annihilated in the midterms. Based on their current behaviour, they're not distancing themselves enough to show that they think that right now. |
Author: | TheVision [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:43 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Cras wrote: markg wrote: He's fucked now isn't he? Surely must be gone before the end of the year. Even all the joint chiefs have seemingly distanced themselves from him. The thing is, there's no real mechanism short of impeachment, and until Mueller's done, there's probably nothing impeachable. The only thing that gets him out is if republicans decide that he's going to get them annihilated in the midterms. Based on their current behaviour, they're not distancing themselves enough to show that they think that right now. Much as I'd like to see Trump go, I too can't see it happening for a long time. |
Author: | markg [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:45 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Half of these cunts probably think the same way he does but they aren't stupid and who's going to want to be one of the ones who clung on until the end? I don't know, the whole thing just seems increasingly untenable. |
Author: | Cras [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:47 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
markg wrote: Half of these cunts probably think the same way he does but they aren't stupid and who's going to want to be one of the ones who clung on until the end? I don't know, the whole thing just seems increasingly untenable. I thought that, but I think the current count of house republicans who've spoken out against his press conference statements is 14 out of 292. |
Author: | markg [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:52 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Yeah, I'm sure there's lots of shady meetings going on right now, though. |
Author: | Doctor Glyndwr [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:00 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Kern wrote: I don't get why Mr Trump is obsessing about Confederate statues. I thought he only liked winners. I liked this thread on Twitter: https://twitter.com/drvox/status/897558666110488576
|
Author: | DavPaz [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:06 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Doctor Glyndwr wrote: Kern wrote: I don't get why Mr Trump is obsessing about Confederate statues. I thought he only liked winners. I liked this thread on Twitter: https://twitter.com/drvox/status/897558666110488576
Much as I like the content, perhaps Twitter is not the right platform to deliver such a wordy discourse |
Author: | TheVision [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:19 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
That's |
Author: | TheVision [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:19 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Exactly |
Author: | TheVision [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:19 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
What |
Author: | TheVision [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:19 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
I |
Author: | TheVision [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:19 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Was |
Author: | TheVision [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:19 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Thinking. |
Author: | Trousers [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:20 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
DavPaz wrote: Doctor Glyndwr wrote: Kern wrote: I don't get why Mr Trump is obsessing about Confederate statues. I thought he only liked winners. I liked this thread on Twitter: https://twitter.com/drvox/status/897558666110488576
Much as I like the content, perhaps Twitter is not the right platform to deliver such a wordy discourse The first Tweet links to a single article which expands on the thread. |
Author: | Kern [ Thu Aug 17, 2017 18:38 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Good piece by Kevin Levin of CWMemory on why it's not just Confederate generals that are problematic on statues. |
Author: | Doctor Glyndwr [ Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:51 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Vice's 22-min documentary on the Charlottesville protesters is rather difficult to watch, but also very important I think: |
Author: | flis [ Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:56 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
TheVision wrote: Cras wrote: markg wrote: He's fucked now isn't he? Surely must be gone before the end of the year. Even all the joint chiefs have seemingly distanced themselves from him. The thing is, there's no real mechanism short of impeachment, and until Mueller's done, there's probably nothing impeachable. The only thing that gets him out is if republicans decide that he's going to get them annihilated in the midterms. Based on their current behaviour, they're not distancing themselves enough to show that they think that right now. Much as I'd like to see Trump go, I too can't see it happening for a long time. If they find enough dodgy activity to impeach him, the best hope is that he resigns. All they need to do is catch him in a lie regarding his knowledge of his teams involvement, that'd be enough to impeach him. If there's not enough to prove he acted illegally and the GOP do well in the mid-terms, he'll be acquitted by the Senate. The 25th Ammendment stuff won't stick. He is exactly the man they voted in, complete with the racism. He'll make it to the end of his first term. And I think his behaviour shows he believes he won't be removed from office. He's saying and doing things to intentionally provoke anyone who doesn't support him. His lies are blatant; his ignorance of anything to do with politics, especially outside of the US, are embarrassing. I cannot stand him, he's abhorrent and I think the US will be in flames when he gets to the end of his first term. It's going to take years and years for them to come back from this. If he doesn't start a bloody world war before that. |
Author: | myp [ Fri Aug 18, 2017 19:14 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Steve Bannon leaves the White House because he's not enough of a nazi |
Author: | BikNorton [ Fri Aug 18, 2017 19:53 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Puppet master has given up as well? Holy fuck. |
Author: | DBSnappa [ Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:24 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
There seem to be a worrying number of indications that this is a symbolic gesture. As in, he'll still wield enormous influence, just not in an 'official' capacity. |
Author: | myp [ Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:07 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
DBSnappa wrote: There seem to be a worrying number of indications that this is a symbolic gesture. As in, he'll still wield enormous influence, just not in an 'official' capacity. Well yeah. I can't see Trump changing course at this point. |
Author: | Kern [ Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:48 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
I realise I'm bandwagon jumping, but after the past week I've moved into the whole 'tear them down' camp when it comes to Confederate statues in US cities. Regimental markers and monuments on battlefields I'm less sure about, because they do serve an interpretative function for understanding the battle itself but the more modern ones should probably be toned down or removed if they don't assist that goal. I'm also not comfortable when it comes to cemeteries, because every community needs to grieve its dead in its own way, but again it needs to be commemorative not celebratory. This Kevin Levin article helped push me over, especially this part: Quote: I imagined stepping back in time to convince the residents of Prague that the monuments helped them face their past, or gave teachers an important tool with which to engage their students. This proved to be a futile exercise. Regardless of their destination, the monuments were exactly where they needed to be as determined by the community members themselves. As for Cecil Rhodes in Oxford, I'm still not convinced we'd be better off without him. Unless you know it's there it's very easy to miss, but more importantly I don't think Rhodes or what he represents is used as part of our current discussion about the tricky subject of race or racial relations. If people start trumpeting him as an example of how things should be, yes, the context would change, and in the meantime we should work to convince the University to be more circumspect about who it takes cash from (although the Russian Oligarch School of Government is a fantastic piece of modern architecture). But I could be converted. The TL;DR is: I mostly agree with Myp. |
Author: | Doctor Glyndwr [ Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:14 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Further to discussion earlier in the thread about these statues being largely or part paid for from private money, and being cheap output of mass-production, this CNN article has hard data on when Confederate statues were erected. Clear spikes around 1910-1920, as Jim Crow was starting, and the 1950s, as the Civil Rights era was happening. Very few in the 40-ish years between Jim Crow and the Civil War. There's no way you can convince me these are about heritage. It's about finding any way possible to express latent racism. There's no cultural value at risk in removing them. http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/16/us/co ... olitics=Tw |
Author: | Doctor Glyndwr [ Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:17 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Also this is worrying http://splinternews.com/charlottesville ... 1797988745 Bombastic headline but it makes a fairly strong case in the end. Quote: Everything that has happened in American life since the election of George W. Bush, the last point at which the generation currently entering its 30s was “up for grabs,” has only served to drive young people away from the Republican Party. At the absolute most, based on polling and election data, only about a third of adults under 30 are Republicans. According to Pew, nearly half of those young Republicans left their party at some point in 2016, with 23 percent of them changing their affiliation for good.
Meanwhile, everyone else in the broadly defined Millennial generation, and even many among the more-conservative Generation X, has become more liberal over the last decade. The Republicans have essentially lost a generation. (Republican pollster and author Kristen Soltis Andersen is my favorite authority on this subject, because she is watching her own movement refuse to grapple with these facts). Despite that, the Republican Party will continue to field candidates and win elections for the foreseeable future. The two existent parties are entrenched in our electoral system—they effectively control ballot access at every level—so a Whig-style collapse seems out of the cards. The GOP, despite the aging and eventual die-off of its current base of support, will continue to win lots and lots of elections. So they’ll continue to need candidates. Meanwhile, the only people entering the Republican Party candidate pipeline in the Trump era almost have to be allied with the alt-right, because the alt-right absolutely comprises the only effective and successful youth outreach strategy the GOP currently employs. The future leaders of the GOP aren’t the hooded Klan members or Nazi-tattooed thugs who presented the most cartoonish faces of hate in Charlottesville, but they are their clean-cut fellow marchers, and the many young right-wingers around the nation who sympathize with their cause. |
Author: | Kern [ Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:18 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Doctor Glyndwr wrote: That's a brilliant chart. Love stuff like that. |
Author: | Kern [ Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:27 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Doctor Glyndwr wrote: Indeed. And as the US parties tend to use primaries rather than smoke-filled rooms to find candidates, there will be a reinforcement effect as the only way to win over the far right base is to appeal to them. |
Author: | Doctor Glyndwr [ Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:34 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
While I am dumping links I've really liked this week, this piece in the Atlantic with contemporaneous quotes from Confederate states makes it pretty clear that the war was about slavery. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... er/396482/ |
Author: | Doctor Glyndwr [ Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:39 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
Quote: On the eve of secession, Georgia Governor Joseph E. Brown concurred: Quote: Among us the poor white laborer is respected as an equal. His family is treated with kindness, consideration and respect. He does not belong to the menial class. The negro is in no sense of the term his equal. He feels and knows this. He belongs to the only true aristocracy, the race of white men. He black no masters boots, and bows the knee to no one save God alone. He receives higher wages for his labor than does the laborer of any other portion of the world, and he raises up his children with the knowledge, that they belong to no inferior cast, but that the highest members of the society in which he lives, will, if their conduct is good, respect and treat them as equals. Difficult not to see parallels to the social forces that elected Trump there. Some of those poor white labourers still feel wronged when an African-American betters them. |
Author: | Kern [ Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:43 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread |
I always liked the line from General Sherman in 1864: Quote: Three years ago by a little reflection and patience they could have had a hundred years of peace and prosperity, but they preferred war; very well. Last year they could have saved their slaves, but now it is too late.
All the powers of earth cannot restore to them their slaves, any more than their dead grandfathers. Next year their lands will be taken, for in war we can take them, and rightfully, too, and in another year they may beg in vain for their lives |
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