Political Banter and Debate Thread

Kern · **Posted:** Fri Apr 06, 2018 13:01

We're a nation of animal lovers. They've crossed a line on this.

MaliA · **Posted:** Fri Apr 06, 2018 13:11

Speaking of which, the WW2 in real time twitter reached Katyn and I'm.still trying to get my head around the sheer coldness of the operation.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

I love that account

MaliA · **Posted:** Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:22

Gardiner is pretty much why I dislike Labour so much.

Quote:

Barry Gardiner, the shadow trade secretary, has described the Good Friday agreement as a shibboleth that was being “played up” in the Brexit negotiations for economic rather than political reasons.

Answering questions at a thinktank session in Brussels last month, Gardiner suggested there was no reason to fear that a border with customs controls would lead to a return of paramilitary activity.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... ssion=true

Kern · **Posted:** Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:33

Actually quite stunned by these remarks.

One of Labour's finest achievements in office (even after we've considered the role of John Major for his work beforehand), and he wants to throw it under a bus because of a need for Brexit at all costs? Gah.

MaliA · **Posted:** Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:00

Kern wrote:

Actually quite stunned by these remarks.

One of Labour's finest achievements in office (even after we've considered the role of John Major for his work beforehand), and he wants to throw it under a bus because of a need for Brexit at all costs? Gah.

I think it's showing, once more, the amateurism of the shadow front bench (MaliA - passim). I don't think they realise at times that they aren't little known back benches anymore and should really think rather than play to their mob of worshippers.

Kern · **Posted:** Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:31

Labour announces plan for under 25s to have free bus travel (Guardian)

Putting aside the funding question (the old people's card is a substantial cost to local authorities, so this isn't going to help) but the main issue is lack of services in rural areas.
I've never understood why outside of the largest cities regional transport boards aren't a thing. Set them up, let them award franchises to public or private contractors covering routes in an area, and sweeten them with some profitable lines alongside services that are needed but won't ever make money. If Labour plan something like this, that'd be a really good change for the good.

MaliA · **Posted:** Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:02

Kern wrote:

Labour announces plan for under 25s to have free bus travel (Guardian)

Putting aside the funding question (the old people's card is a substantial cost to local authorities, so this isn't going to help) but the main issue is lack of services in rural areas.
I've never understood why outside of the largest cities regional transport boards aren't a thing. Set them up, let them award franchises to public or private contractors covering routes in an area, and sweeten them with some profitable lines alongside services that are needed but won't ever make money. If Labour plan something like this, that'd be a really good change for the good.

"The youth hate us because of our stance on Brexit, and the running over a cat reporting thing wasn't the hit we hoped for."
"Quick! Bus passes for all!"

I read the plan is to pay for it through road tax.

I think.your views in transport are spot on.

Kern · **Posted:** Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:06

Knew those years playing 'Transport Tycoon' wouldn't go to waste.

MaliA · **Posted:** Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:14

Kern wrote:

Knew those years playing 'Transport Tycoon' wouldn't go to waste.

This was my first thought, too.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Over the weekend even the Sun and the Daily Mail ran articles attacking the government and supporting the Windrush immigrants. What a shitshow. I’m not saying May is an unfeeling racist but I am saying her policies are indistinguishable from someone who is.

Kern · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2018 17:19

The more I'm hearing about the Windrush affair the angrier I'm getting. Utterly disgusting; probably even a really serious case of maladministration.

Just read that the Home Office destroyed the landing cards. Let alone the evidence they offer, why destroy such a useful historical document for future generations?

Do the Home Office even think they can 'register' people from other EU countries living here? Would they even trust the Government with this?

LewieP · **Joined:** 29th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 7600

Theresa may did so many racist things as home secretary. This is what people who voted for her wanted.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Jesus Christ Corbyn

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/ ... 3817372672

â€œThe decision to destroy the landing cards was taken in 2009 under a Labour Governmentâ€ says the PM to Corbynâ€™s question on the matter of why they were destroyed.
— Faisal Islam (@faisalislam) April 18, 2018

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38458

Oh she was holding onto that bombshell with glee, wasn't she?

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

DavPaz wrote:

Oh she was holding onto that bombshell with glee, wasn't she?

And it seems he walked right into it. Because of course he did.

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:47

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:54

Amazing.

ApplePieOfDestiny · **Joined:** 17th Dec, 2008 **Posts:** 8293

I was listening. It’s fair to say he lost his way after that, made up a terrible question/accusation on the hoof that had just been answered in the previous question, rendering it redundant but effectively implying tories are racist. May responded by saying that she wouldn’t take that accusation from an anti Semitic party to take an even stronger advantage.

*some paraphrasing.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

MaliA wrote:

Amazing.

But not the good kind of amazing.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Destroying the landing cards is fine. By doing so though, you're deeming them no longer necessary. As a result the problem comes when you suddenly decide they are again necessary as part of an immigration process - that's the fuck up, not destroying the cards.

Kern · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2018 13:19

Cras wrote:

Destroying the landing cards is fine. By doing so though, you're deeming them no longer necessary. As a result the problem comes when you suddenly decide they are again necessary as part of an immigration process - that's the fuck up, not destroying the cards.

This. And who was responsible for the Home Office during the period these policies came in?

Squirt · **Joined:** 31st Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 6507

Although...

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/986582591078793216

Home office source sent a note to my colleague @laurabundock last night, saying the decision to dispose of registration slops was taken by the UKBA in 2010. May just told the HoC the decision taken in 2009. Clear contradiction #Windrush https://t.co/8CIW7h33t0
— Beth Rigby (@BethRigby) April 18, 2018

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/986593656902742016

Have the clarification: in June 2009 business case approved by UKBA to dispose of paper records
Dec 2009 the work started
Second half 2010 the operational decision to destroy paper slips enacted. (enacting prog of work agreed in 2009). All of it UKBA decisions NOT ministerial https://t.co/H1nN5nRmZC
— Beth Rigby (@BethRigby) April 18, 2018

Kern · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2018 14:57

I'm not convinced that these people's lack of records was even thought about when Mrs May started her 'hostile environment' (an utterly disgusting phrase) policies.

None of this, by the way, leads me to supporting identity cards. In fact, it highlights the dangers of such schemes. The second the government screws up, you become an unperson.

I miss the open, welcoming Britain I thought I knew.

asfish · **Joined:** 5th Dec, 2010 **Posts:** 3353

Both parties really show how piss poor they are.

From what I've read there are people who have lost jobs, been deported and denied cancer treatment on the NHS as a result of this evolving mess.

Would be nice if stops could be pulled out to make amends, then afterwards they can bitch about who destroyed the landing cards and is the bigger racist.

Pundabaya · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 5016

If the landing cards were no longer required, they should have been destroyed as per Data Protection. If some silly person then made it so the now destroyed cards necessary, then that person should be sacked. Simple as.

Kern · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2018 17:22

Given the importance of Windrush to our historical memory, I'd have kept them and digitised them for release in the middle of the century.

There's no real practical need for the Ellis Island records but they help Americans understand who they are and where they come from.

Kern · **Posted:** Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:31

I'm sure the other Commonwealth leaders will be thrilled that the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom hopes they'll stop talking about the Windrush maladministrative clusterfuck and discuss drinking straws instead.

MaliA · **Posted:** Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:39

Labour pushing for the young vote again but I'm not sure how it is possible to square away "[restoring] the principle that a decent home is a right owed to all, not a privilege for the few. And the only way to deliver on that right for everyone, regardless of income, is through social housing” with removing the right to buy. And they are pushing the "buying land at below market value from private individuals/companies" to build houses on (a bit of land is, say £200k as a field, but with residential planning permission it is £1MM, they will compulsory purchase it for the £200k regardless of status of planning.

Either they are going too far left, or I've been considerably further to the right than I have considered myself for many a year.

MaliA · **Posted:** Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:39

Kern wrote:

I'm sure the other Commonwealth leaders will be thrilled that the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom hopes they'll stop talking about the Windrush maladministrative clusterfuck and discuss drinking straws instead.

"but..but the straws.....Blue planet.....This is what they wanted..." will be the final words of her tenancy at Number 10.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

https://twitter.com/henrymance/status/9 ... 7611820033

Private Eye at its best pic.twitter.com/r6jvfDJnlZ
— Henry Mance (@henrymance) April 18, 2018

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

This is some fucking weaksauce attempt to rehabilitate May's image from her former lieutenant.

https://twitter.com/NickJTimothy/status ... 8283618305

In my column today I also reveal the truth about the notorious "go home or face arrest vans": TM was opposed to them and they were approved while she was on holiday in 2013. pic.twitter.com/E9RYGldCcB
— Nick Timothy (@NickJTimothy) April 19, 2018

Kern · **Posted:** Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:01

You're the Home Secretary. If you blocked it, it doesn't happen. Either she had absolutely no control over her junior ministers or officials, was deliberately vague in her phrasing, or she didn't, in fact, block it.

I'm still trying to find the right phrasing to express how genuinely angry I am about all of this.

Squirt · **Joined:** 31st Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 6507

It's ok, she's not racist, just incompetent!

Trooper · **Joined:** 4th Mar, 2010 **Posts:** 22266

Kern wrote:

You're the Home Secretary. If you blocked it, it doesn't happen. Either she had absolutely no control over her junior ministers or officials, was deliberately vague in her phrasing, or she didn't, in fact, block it.

All of the above I expect. The civil servants generally ignore their ministers for the most part, as they get in the way of doing the job and there will be a new one along in a minute anyway. Unless something specifically gets mentioned in the HoC as a concrete commitment, it gets ignored and they carry on as normal.

markg · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 16557

She was the home secretary, if she cared then she could have sacked the people who so clearly exceeded their authority and had every van taken off the streets the same day she found out, not "later that year". Absolute fucking codswallop.

Kern · **Posted:** Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:12

MaliA wrote:

Labour pushing for the young vote again but I'm not sure how it is possible to square away "[restoring] the principle that a decent home is a right owed to all, not a privilege for the few. And the only way to deliver on that right for everyone, regardless of income, is through social housing” with removing the right to buy.

Not against the right to buy in principle, but there should be a one out-two in policy to ensure sufficient housing stock.

Quote:

And they are pushing the "buying land at below market value from private individuals/companies" to build houses on (a bit of land is, say £200k as a field, but with residential planning permission it is £1MM, they will compulsory purchase it for the £200k regardless of status of planning.

If you've got permission to build on a plot, and have already seen the increase in value, perhaps you should have a set deadline to make real on the promise to build rather than just hold on to it?

Grim... · **Posted:** Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:27

Kern wrote:

If you've got permission to build on a plot, and have already seen the increase in value, perhaps you should have a set deadline to make real on the promise to build rather than just hold on to it?

What if you're holding onto it specifically because you don't want a block of flats dropped on it?

Kern · **Posted:** Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:36

Don't sell the land? Seek a different designation in the local plan? Agree to something else useful with it? Bury industrial waste in it to muck up your family business 40 years later and annoy Adam Macy even more?

Grim... · **Posted:** Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:42

Kern wrote:

Don't sell the land?

You don't have a choice.

Kern · **Posted:** Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:01

What I'm unsure about is why people with planning permission on a site don't have to act on it within a reasonable timescale, in exchange for getting the mark up on the land.

Squirt · **Joined:** 31st Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 6507

Planning permission expires after a few years, doesn't it? Although I imagine getting it back is easier than getting it the first time.

Kern · **Posted:** Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:12

Ah, right. Seems I know as much about land policy as Mr Corbyn...

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Squirt wrote:

Planning permission expires after a few years, doesn't it? Although I imagine getting it back is easier than getting it the first time.

I think it's sometimes open to negotiation but you typically have to commence work within three years or the permission lapses. eg. I have open right now a PDF regarding a five-storey apartment block being built behind a house we're hopefully viewing on the weekend. It says, under Conditions, "The development hereby permitted shall be begun before the expiration of three years from the date of this permission.".

Grim... · **Posted:** Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:50

As far as I'm aware, all you have to do is dig a single foundation hole.

MaliA · **Posted:** Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:00

Grim... wrote:

As far as I'm aware, all you have to do is dig a single foundation hole.

If memory serves, yes. Maybe even as little as flagging out the ground.

MaliA · **Posted:** Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:02

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

https://twitter.com/henrymance/status/986644787611820033

It is as if he is playing to a specific audience at specific times to keep an image going.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status ... 5179303936

SCOOP: Theresa May was told about the "Go Home" van plan at least four months before it happened. Her response... https://t.co/YFBHOxqFaI pic.twitter.com/bWiuvrjq4V
— Robert Hutton (@RobDotHutton) April 19, 2018

https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status ... 3130563584

The "Go Home" van plan was called Operation Vaken. I presume (but don't know) that this is why... pic.twitter.com/EDJ0UnpMAX
— Robert Hutton (@RobDotHutton) April 19, 2018

MaliA · **Posted:** Thu Apr 19, 2018 21:41

Presumably "Transit" was considered too strong.

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