Be Excellent To Each Other

SPLITTERS

This is one of the issues I have with The Left (and The Right). It's binary, very much "for or against", "our way or wrong". In NuNuLabLand, this manifests as faith in the one true saviour as "he's the right side of history". Any critiscm of ideas, policies or actions is met with a wave of hostility. This is even directed against journalists (also, I suspect Laura K gets more as she's a woman) who are part of the mainstream media plot against The Left. It's silo'd cult thinking with very little room for course correction, with a reluctance to hold a mirror up to themselves, instead needing a 2 minute hate against anyone with a nuance of doubt of the effectiveness of The Plan who isn't in The Club. The reverence and "he can do no wrong" attitude sits uncomfortably with me as there is no critical thinking, just "wouldn't it be great...?".

There was originally a point, but I've lost it somewhere but it is something like building a country on memes, slogans and skipping the hard questions isn't a great idea.

Myp and I align in wanting a fair and just society for all, for example, but we differ in what happens next. I view it as the state should provide opportunities for people to learn and develop (whilst keeping them safe and secure), and encourage them to do their best to get optimum results. This basis (a well run welfare and support system) would would then let people pursue jobs and careers in an efficient economy with the state only acting as a guiding hand in severe circunstances. Private enterprise will be rewarded as this funds the basic services of societybthrough taxation.

Myp wants everyone to work in a bakery on the same wage producing slightly less bread than is needed whilst smog from the tractor factories gives everyone asbestosis and it rains all the time.

http://www.parliament.uk/business/publi ... -17/108255

Interesting tidbit: DoE expects 40-45% of student loans to never be repaid.



They should sack loans off and replace it with a proper graduate tax. It'd be clearer.

Or just stick a percentage point on the higher rate of income tax and be done with it.

The same is true of Tories as well, Mali, and in fact 99% of humanity. Most people aren't intrinsically bad, and most people genuinely want a fairer, nicer, more equitable society.
As ever, the (sole) disagreement arises from how best to execute this/the required methology - but not the objective.

Sure, but I think there's a pretty big extent to which some people are attracted to methodologies which benefit them first and foremost.

I read somewhere that less well off people (skilfully avoiding a judgmental term, good work MaliA) vote tory as they see themselves as soon to be rich so the policies that negatively change their current position were thought to be less important.

Yeah, and often it is about making the least bad decision.

That is very much the case in the US. The ethos of the American dream means that the less well off see themselves as temporarily disadvantaged, and thus disapprove of things like taxation of the wealthy because it could affect them some day.

In a break from our planning Utopia, read about an aeroplane that has been keeping a watchful eye over Baltimore.

Mrs T's logic behind selling off the council houses was to make the occupants homeowners and thus more likely to be Tory now they were property owners too.

I'm assuming you accept Boris, Gove and JRM all fall into that 1% of people only out to further their own career?

I would say there's a fair few more Tories with naked, untrammelled ambition as their key driver rather than a fairer society.

I even thought Thatcher was at least doing what she thought was right - there's far too many of the current mob just looking out for number one.

Call me naive but I think Thatcher was for the most part driven by a simple, genuine desire to provide a serious catalyst and game changing, new found upwards mobility for the masses, as distinct from row upon row of decaying, state controlled housing.

I seriously doubt it was all some evil plot to create Tory voters.

Sadly, I no longer think that's true for any of the parties.

Objective #1 is to stay in power - all other things are secondary.

Of course. If you believe Labour are feckless idiots who cannot be trusted to run a bath, you must, at all costs, keep them out of power to prevent the harm they'd do.

Why, I believe I'll vote for a third party candidate!

Bakery jobs for all, comrades!

Let them eat cake!

I don’t agree, though perhaps that possibility is just too ghastly for me to contemplate.
For me, I have to believe that people only enter into the pretty awful world of politics and all the attendant scrutiny of public life for damn good reason: a genuine belief and desire, however misplaced, that they can do good, for the highest possible number of people. I mean, otherwise, there are so much easier, less risky ways to make a far better living.

I think most of them want to be important.

If you're rich, ugly and really want to be famous then it's a pretty good option.

Trump.

The exercise of power is often a pretty hefty motivator too.

I guess I mean 'most' politicians; those who enter into it at, or close to, ground floor level as it were, and have to 'graft' their way to the top (relatively speaking), as opposed to rich/notorious celeb types who manage to parachute themselves in from the get go. This doesn't really apply to the UK much, but it's certainly true of America, e.g. Trump, Schwarzenegger, Reagan etc.

Schwarzenegger was pretty good, wasn't he?

Dunno. I was just using him as an example of someone who probably just fancied the high profile and kudos side of things, and was able to jump right in at the top, due to shitloads of cash at his disposal, and celebrity status.

I dunno I just think it stretches credibility to believe that all those Bullingdon Club twats were all driven by a desire to serve others. Especially when you look at how they behave, even with one another.

He had a couple of bad scandals if I remember, but politically he was pretty sound - although I realise that will depend on your left/right leaning.

He was a fairly left-wing Repulican, IIRC. He even had a Democrat as his chief of staff.

He was pretty strong on labour rights too, iirc

Well, Californian republican is, to a certain extent, different to an alabama republican. Bigotry is less of a selling point

Boris Johnson: yeah, even I'd tend to agree.
You'll doubtless scoff, but I actually think David Cameron is a decent enough bloke, from what I can tell. I mean, he can't help being posh, and having been exposed to all the stuff posh people do in their public schools, posh clubs or whatever else it may be. (He probably wouldn't like some of the working class stuff I got up to in my youth either, and I'm a nice chap )

Yes, we’ve all done some “working class stuff” in our youth. FFS.

Er, what?

Yeah, exactly.

You know I think I mostly agree with cavey. I do think most MPs are in it because they want to do something positive, however badly they're going about it, even the PM. Some of them, though. It's like it's a fucking game.

Awesome

You're not allowed to say "working-class" if it has negative connotations. You can only be negative about upper or middle classes.

Ah, I see.

Tell that to the pig he fucked.

Well, I was kind of alluding to alleged stuff like that, Z, but thanks for clarifying further.

Which is unfair as you're burdening the sins of the father on to the child.

There are no sins, doofus.

At PMQs

Fucking hell, that's enough doom-mongering for one day, man.
Brrrrr. /shudders

More doom and gloom to add to your list

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ales-crash

I had a quick skim-read, Jem, and the bit that struck me was this little snippet:



Hang on, lowest growth?

If you then click on the linked text, you get this:



Look, I'm not claiming that 1.2% growth in the UK retail sector is somehow amazeballs or anything, but it's not exactly meltdown either! (DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM(tm) )
It's probably much more to do with people not shopping in Debenhams stores since 1998 or whatever, surely? Who seriously still trundles down to Debenhams instead of clicking on Amazon in this day and age? Pfft. I give The Guardian 219/1000.

Haha well I personally don't shop in Debenhams since they fucked up my wedding dress order