Political Banter and Debate Thread

TheVision · **Posted:** Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:19

Thinking.

Trousers · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 3073

DavPaz wrote:

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Kern wrote:

I don't get why Mr Trump is obsessing about Confederate statues. I thought he only liked winners.

I liked this thread on Twitter: https://twitter.com/drvox/status/897558666110488576

1. A word about this insane press conference. It's a very good time to remember this: https://t.co/FSK4DJ1hP8
— David Roberts (@drvox) August 15, 2017

Much as I like the content, perhaps Twitter is not the right platform to deliver such a wordy discourse

The first Tweet links to a single article which expands on the thread.

Kern · **Posted:** Thu Aug 17, 2017 18:38

Good piece by Kevin Levin of CWMemory on why it's not just Confederate generals that are problematic on statues.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Vice's 22-min documentary on the Charlottesville protesters is rather difficult to watch, but also very important I think:

flis · **Joined:** 26th May, 2008 **Posts:** 3333

TheVision wrote:

Cras wrote:

markg wrote:

He's fucked now isn't he? Surely must be gone before the end of the year. Even all the joint chiefs have seemingly distanced themselves from him.

The thing is, there's no real mechanism short of impeachment, and until Mueller's done, there's probably nothing impeachable.

The only thing that gets him out is if republicans decide that he's going to get them annihilated in the midterms. Based on their current behaviour, they're not distancing themselves enough to show that they think that right now.

Much as I'd like to see Trump go, I too can't see it happening for a long time.

If they find enough dodgy activity to impeach him, the best hope is that he resigns. All they need to do is catch him in a lie regarding his knowledge of his teams involvement, that'd be enough to impeach him. If there's not enough to prove he acted illegally and the GOP do well in the mid-terms, he'll be acquitted by the Senate.

The 25th Ammendment stuff won't stick. He is exactly the man they voted in, complete with the racism.

He'll make it to the end of his first term. And I think his behaviour shows he believes he won't be removed from office. He's saying and doing things to intentionally provoke anyone who doesn't support him. His lies are blatant; his ignorance of anything to do with politics, especially outside of the US, are embarrassing.

I cannot stand him, he's abhorrent and I think the US will be in flames when he gets to the end of his first term. It's going to take years and years for them to come back from this. If he doesn't start a bloody world war before that.

myp · **Posted:** Fri Aug 18, 2017 19:14

Steve Bannon leaves the White House because he's not enough of a nazi

BikNorton · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 10074

Puppet master has given up as well?

Holy fuck.

DBSnappa · **Posted:** Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:24

There seem to be a worrying number of indications that this is a symbolic gesture. As in, he'll still wield enormous influence, just not in an 'official' capacity.

myp · **Posted:** Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:07

DBSnappa wrote:

There seem to be a worrying number of indications that this is a symbolic gesture. As in, he'll still wield enormous influence, just not in an 'official' capacity.

Well yeah. I can't see Trump changing course at this point.

Kern · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:48

I realise I'm bandwagon jumping, but after the past week I've moved into the whole 'tear them down' camp when it comes to Confederate statues in US cities. Regimental markers and monuments on battlefields I'm less sure about, because they do serve an interpretative function for understanding the battle itself but the more modern ones should probably be toned down or removed if they don't assist that goal. I'm also not comfortable when it comes to cemeteries, because every community needs to grieve its dead in its own way, but again it needs to be commemorative not celebratory.

This Kevin Levin article helped push me over, especially this part:

Quote:

I imagined stepping back in time to convince the residents of Prague that the monuments helped them face their past, or gave teachers an important tool with which to engage their students. This proved to be a futile exercise. Regardless of their destination, the monuments were exactly where they needed to be as determined by the community members themselves.

As for Cecil Rhodes in Oxford, I'm still not convinced we'd be better off without him. Unless you know it's there it's very easy to miss, but more importantly I don't think Rhodes or what he represents is used as part of our current discussion about the tricky subject of race or racial relations. If people start trumpeting him as an example of how things should be, yes, the context would change, and in the meantime we should work to convince the University to be more circumspect about who it takes cash from (although the Russian Oligarch School of Government is a fantastic piece of modern architecture). But I could be converted.

The TL;DR is: I mostly agree with Myp.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Further to discussion earlier in the thread about these statues being largely or part paid for from private money, and being cheap output of mass-production, this CNN article has hard data on when Confederate statues were erected. Clear spikes around 1910-1920, as Jim Crow was starting, and the 1950s, as the Civil Rights era was happening. Very few in the 40-ish years between Jim Crow and the Civil War. There's no way you can convince me these are about heritage. It's about finding any way possible to express latent racism. There's no cultural value at risk in removing them.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/16/us/co ... olitics=Tw

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Also this is worrying
http://splinternews.com/charlottesville ... 1797988745

Bombastic headline but it makes a fairly strong case in the end.

Quote:

Everything that has happened in American life since the election of George W. Bush, the last point at which the generation currently entering its 30s was “up for grabs,” has only served to drive young people away from the Republican Party. At the absolute most, based on polling and election data, only about a third of adults under 30 are Republicans. According to Pew, nearly half of those young Republicans left their party at some point in 2016, with 23 percent of them changing their affiliation for good.

Meanwhile, everyone else in the broadly defined Millennial generation, and even many among the more-conservative Generation X, has become more liberal over the last decade. The Republicans have essentially lost a generation. (Republican pollster and author Kristen Soltis Andersen is my favorite authority on this subject, because she is watching her own movement refuse to grapple with these facts).

Despite that, the Republican Party will continue to field candidates and win elections for the foreseeable future. The two existent parties are entrenched in our electoral system—they effectively control ballot access at every level—so a Whig-style collapse seems out of the cards. The GOP, despite the aging and eventual die-off of its current base of support, will continue to win lots and lots of elections. So they’ll continue to need candidates.

Meanwhile, the only people entering the Republican Party candidate pipeline in the Trump era almost have to be allied with the alt-right, because the alt-right absolutely comprises the only effective and successful youth outreach strategy the GOP currently employs. The future leaders of the GOP aren’t the hooded Klan members or Nazi-tattooed thugs who presented the most cartoonish faces of hate in Charlottesville, but they are their clean-cut fellow marchers, and the many young right-wingers around the nation who sympathize with their cause.

Kern · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:18

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/16/us/co ... olitics=Tw

That's a brilliant chart. Love stuff like that.

Kern · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:27

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Also this is worrying
http://splinternews.com/charlottesville ... 1797988745

Indeed. And as the US parties tend to use primaries rather than smoke-filled rooms to find candidates, there will be a reinforcement effect as the only way to win over the far right base is to appeal to them.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

While I am dumping links I've really liked this week, this piece in the Atlantic with contemporaneous quotes from Confederate states makes it pretty clear that the war was about slavery.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... er/396482/

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Quote:

On the eve of secession, Georgia Governor Joseph E. Brown concurred:

Quote:

Among us the poor white laborer is respected as an equal. His family is treated with kindness, consideration and respect. He does not belong to the menial class. The negro is in no sense of the term his equal. He feels and knows this. He belongs to the only true aristocracy, the race of white men. He black no masters boots, and bows the knee to no one save God alone. He receives higher wages for his labor than does the laborer of any other portion of the world, and he raises up his children with the knowledge, that they belong to no inferior cast, but that the highest members of the society in which he lives, will, if their conduct is good, respect and treat them as equals.

Difficult not to see parallels to the social forces that elected Trump there. Some of those poor white labourers still feel wronged when an African-American betters them.

Kern · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:43

I always liked the line from General Sherman in 1864:

Quote:

Three years ago by a little reflection and patience they could have had a hundred years of peace and prosperity, but they preferred war; very well. Last year they could have saved their slaves, but now it is too late.

All the powers of earth cannot restore to them their slaves, any more than their dead grandfathers. Next year their lands will be taken, for in war we can take them, and rightfully, too, and in another year they may beg in vain for their lives

Kern · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:48

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

While I am dumping links I've really liked this week, this piece in the Atlantic with contemporaneous quotes from Confederate states makes it pretty clear that the war was about slavery.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... er/396482/

Some bedtime reading for you:

• Mcpherson, James, 'Battle Cry of Freedom'
The standard text on all aspects of the war.

• Dew, Charles. 'Apostles of Disunion'
Examines the activities and speeches of commissioners sent by the earliest seceding states to their neighbours in order to encourage further states to secede. Shorter than the others listed here, and an ideal place to start.

• Foner, Eric, 'The Firey Trial'
Excellent exploration of Lincoln's views on slavery and how he approached the issue throughout his time as president. Very useful for debunking many myths about him and his views on slavery, although for a fuller and more detailed account of his time as president taking in other issues, Doris Kearn Goodwin's 'Team of Rivals' is as good a place to start.

• Freehling, William, 'The Road to Disunion'
2 volumes - 'Secessionists at Bay' and 'Secessionists Triumphant'
Incredibly detailed social and political history of the southern US from the earliest days, gives an amazing flavour of life in the Southern states from the earliest times. The first chapter is a bit odd, but stick with it.

• Levine, Bruce, ‘The Fall of the House of Dixie’
Excellent social and political history of the south. Shorter and easier than the Freehling.

• Radio 3's series on the American Civil War from 2011 is also an excellent introduction, and I have the series on my computer if anyone wants a CD of them, or it can be found here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01063zt

• Radio 4’s America: Empire of Liberty gives an easily digestible account of US history and the centrality of slavery to the republic’s woes.

• Yale University have a whole series of lectures that can be downloaded for free:
http://oyc.yale.edu/history/hist-119

• The Civil War Trust have a selection of short articles on their website: http://www.civilwar.org/education/histo ... -overview/

I still think the Radio 3 series is one of the best programmes on the war of the slaveholders' rebellion I've come across. Ken Burns's one hasn't aged well.

Kern · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:50

Whenever I hear someone say it was about 'states' rights', I ask which rights in particular were they worried the Republicans were going to infringe.

myp · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:50

Nice to hear, Kern. I respect you a lot, so that means something to me.

Cecil Rhodes we'll have to disagree on (for now

)

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Kern wrote:

Some bedtime reading for you:

how often do you imagine I go to bed

myp · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:48

Kern wrote:

Whenever I hear someone say it was about 'states' rights', I ask which rights in particular were they worried the Republicans were going to infringe.

Sounds eerily like Brits and sovrentee

Kern · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:59

'Bananas will bend again'

Peter St. John · **Joined:** 26th May, 2008 **Posts:** 298

I mean, you only have to read the South Carolina Declaration to get it spelled out for you in bold type:

Quote:

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

Still, it was nice to see them outnumbered almost 1,000 to 1 in Boston yesterday…

Kern · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2017 16:19

The most common misunderstanding I've come across and often have to correct people on is that because the US didn't go to war in 1861 to free the slaves, but rather to save the Union, people immediately assume that means it wasn't about slavery, forgetting of course all the reasons for war made by the south (not to mention the whole of US history) and the fact that the seceding states started the war in the first place to preserve slavery.

Kern · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2017 16:20

Peter St. John wrote:

Still, it was nice to see them outnumbered almost 1,000 to 1 in Boston yesterday…

Yes!
And at the top of Boston Common is a memorial to the 54th Massachusetts, the black regiment featured in 'Glory'.

myp · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2017 16:28

Peter St. John wrote:

I mean, you only have to read the South Carolina Declaration to get it spelled out for you in bold type:

Quote:

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

Still, it was nice to see them outnumbered almost 1,000 to 1 in Boston yesterday…

They only stayed 30 mins and then went home.

Fairweather nazis

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Kern wrote:

Peter St. John wrote:

Still, it was nice to see them outnumbered almost 1,000 to 1 in Boston yesterday…

Yes!
And at the top of Boston Common is a memorial to the 54th Massachusetts, the black regiment featured in 'Glory'.

Also delightfully ironic that Boston was one of the key end points of the Underground Railroad, Massachusetts being the first state* to ban slavery.

*sort of

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/statu ... 5258098688

Ouch. George Osborne says Theresa May "thought it was better to stick with false information than get the real facts" on foreign students. pic.twitter.com/qVxl5BF3ox
— Kevin Schofield (@PolhomeEditor) August 25, 2017

Quote:

Ouch. George Osborne says Theresa May "thought it was better to stick with false information than get the real facts" on foreign students.

Super psyched we have the party of Sensible Grown Ups in charge, y'all!

Edit-- primary source

MaliA · **Posted:** Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:49

That chick is toast

MaliA · **Posted:** Fri Aug 25, 2017 16:12

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/901037425258098688

Quote:

Ouch. George Osborne says Theresa May "thought it was better to stick with false information than get the real facts" on foreign students.

Super psyched we have the party of Sensible Grown Ups in charge, y'all!

Edit-- primary source

He's never been so happy, has he?

Kern · **Posted:** Fri Aug 25, 2017 18:09

Giphy "schadenfreude":
https://media2.giphy.com/media/P3DJgw1dc3R7O/giphy-loop.mp4
Edit: Mr Osborne going to work, yesterday.

Hearthly · **Joined:** 11th May, 2008 **Posts:** 13382

Great piece on May in The Guardian today.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... may-doomed

Quote:

It may be that, like a jellyfish, she has little independent propulsion but is blown along by the tides.

Quote:

Ineptitude? Dithering? Fear of Brexiteer ferocity? She remains an enigma – though not a very interesting one. The worry is that beneath the sphinx-like exterior there is no great riddle, not much in brain, vision, ingenuity or political grasp. Her cabinet colleagues were always bemused by her obstinacy, even in the face of overwhelming factual evidence. Her refusal to take foreign students out of immigration numbers has been utterly perplexing: sticking to it despite new proof that they are indeed students who go home, not migrants, defies all political sense.

Cavey · **Posted:** Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:35

Heh. May is indeed hopeless, and would indeed ordinarily be toast as Mali suggests, but for the fact there is literally no one credible to replace her. I mean seriously, who wants a rather lame children's entertainer for PM, now of all times?

However, rather terrifyingly, this is still by far the safest course; Corbyn and his deluded cohorts would spell rapid death spiral, and so as crap as it undoubtedly is, the country still clings to the Tory splinter of water logged driftwood in the hope of surviving the oncoming tidal wave.

The state of politics here, as across the world, has surely never been so febrile and parlous as of now. (Well, at least for the last 80 years)

Cavey · **Posted:** Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:36

As for Osborne: simmering, resentful ball of jealousy(tm) springs to mind.
He's right though.

Cavey · **Posted:** Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:39

I wonder what David Miliband makes of the last decade?
Not much I'd wager.

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38460

Cavey wrote:

I wonder what David Miliband makes of the last decade?
Not much I'd wager.

He's probably thinking "Thank fuck I ducked out when I did. What a shitshow!"

Cavey · **Posted:** Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:59

DavPaz wrote:

Cavey wrote:

I wonder what David Miliband makes of the last decade?
Not much I'd wager.

He's probably thinking "Thank fuck I ducked out when I did. What a shitshow!"

Heh, possibly - I doubt it though. Word has it family Sunday lunches are still rather awks.

Trousers · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 3073

Anyone for a #meme?

Attachment:

#meme.JPG

"Activate is an independent national grassroots campaign organisation that seeks to actively engage young people in the right of centre politics, make a case for what conservatism can offer and provide a platform to enable their voices to be heard."

#yoofinnit

MaliA · **Posted:** Tue Aug 29, 2017 14:42

Bradford Affordable.

Quote:

Bradford city centre is one of the cheapest places in the country to buy a house, new research has found.

BD1 is the fifth most affordable postcode in the country, according to figures published by web-blinds.com - with an hourly wage of just £4.01 needed to get on the housing ladder.

That's cheap enough that even an 18-year-old earning the minimum wage of £4.05 should be able to buy property there.

1 bed flat, £45k
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/s6p/56468563

Dr Zoidberg · **Joined:** 15th Oct, 2010 **Posts:** 5149

That looks pretty nice for a first home. I'd gave been happy with that.

Dr Zoidberg · **Joined:** 15th Oct, 2010 **Posts:** 5149

This is the cheapest I can find near me - a one bed in a tower for £37k.
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for ... 47780.html

After that it's quite a big jump.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

MaliA wrote:

1 bed flat, £45k
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/s6p/56468563

MaliA · **Posted:** Tue Aug 29, 2017 20:52

2 and a bit hours from King's Cross.

MaliA · **Posted:** Tue Aug 29, 2017 20:54

Dr Zoidberg wrote:

That looks pretty nice for a first home. I'd gave been happy with that.

You can rent one like it for just under 300 a month.

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38460

How about Wallasey? £30k for a 1 bed flat. Unique fixer upper opportunity!

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for ... 63803.html

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38460

To be fair though... Birkenhead, ground floor, one bed flat, with outside space and parking, easy commute to Liverpool, £45k.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for ... 29883.html

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